PC After 4000 hours with a11-a16, I won't spend much time in a17x. Here's why... no fun!

[giKoN]

What was unrelated? I posted directly to previously made comments in the thread that I felt cast an inaccurate representation of the whole community. I agree that your criticism of the game is valid. I have not posted a single contrary view to “level gates are bad” and “one hour debuff death penalty is bad” and “perk point system is bad”. “ and “sleeper spawning is bad”. Etc. Those are your opinions and they should be heard.
But if you say what I am doing is shutting down discussion then so is what your faction is doing by contextualizing your point of view as the majority. Im not going to stop someone from saying “I hate the slow progression” but if they go on to represent their opinion as the whole community’s opinion then I’m going to offer up a counterexample to that. People are free to believe what I share or not.

Someone said earlier that you’re just here to state what you don’t like. Simple as that.

But it isn’t as simple as that. They go on to add to their criticism that the ratio of anti to pro A17 threads proves TFP have made bad design decisions. They say that people who defend the decisions are just kissing up to TFP or are mindless fanbois. They say that empty servers that used to be full of people who are just like them proves that TFP is wrong. They describe the designs as “lazy” “idiotic” “stoopid and stupid” and that only new players like it but oldtime players all hate it.

Sorry, but things are not nearly as dark and terrible as that. So I have empathy for those who find they don’t like the changes and am grateful to those who have posted their opinions about what they dislike and actually did keep it as simple as that.

I assume that is why to a giant text of 99% constructive criticism and expression of feelings with the game you step in to the ring by quoting a two liner of someone describing such expression as rant. Going on with adding as you later say weak numbers to discredit an opinion.

This is what you get from people who overplay early accessed games. Can handle anything that gets harder. Hates any change they see. I am sure TFP will not change the game to the previous alphas because of a rant in the forms.

No fear of that. In the dev chat they keep talking about this version being the closest to the game they always wanted to make. And as far as it needing to be “a game for the players”. Well, today we shattered the record for number of players during experimental. A16 experimental was around 21k and today we hit 23k. It’s likely to grow this weekend as people around the world who don’t celebrate Thanksgiving end their workweek and have their first full weekend of playing.

The point is that A17 is appealing to many many players. Yes there are a lot of people here complaining compared to those who are praising but that’s mainly because 23,000 are playing happily. The game is not going to appeal to everyone. There is going to have to be one or two groups who wil need to mod it to how they like. The group that does like it though is plenty big enough to support the devs in their design decisions—at least initially. They still have at least a few weeks of work to do before A17 becomes official.

Nevertheless, now quoted Roland in my post is one of the very few constructive ones. Despite overreading the "probably fresh" when majority comes up. This is what makes an assumption become an opinion. You made it an assumption again. Generalizing from fresh players to all players. And then not even seeing that I dont entitle myself to speak for the majority, but that I speak of an understandable point of focussing parts of the adressable market - the majority of likely fresh players.

Thus I understand focussing on the majority of probably relatively fresh players "enjoying" the game. Optimized behavior for you. But not for me. Steam rating at least indicates the majority of players giving a thumb up recently are having little hours.

What I fear you are doing is dismissing the critical voices and disregarding, speaking yourself for the overall community. After all, you were bringing up ridiculous statistics trying to prove your point.

 

[Roland]

@giKon. You are mixing a quote from me with quotes from others and making it seem like it’s all from me. Why?

 

[mr.devolver]

lmao....I shouldn’t take what you said as an insult... just as an obvious fact? Would you like a steel shovel or an auger so you can dig yourself even deeper?
Let me guess, this obvious truth about math teachers is based on all those you’ve met just like A17 is obviously a bad design direction because everyone you know also believes it.

Now please, return to discussing your criticism of the game but please make it as simple as that and you’ll hear nothing further from me.

You're also good at taking things out of context. Why would you read the rest of the post where I actually explained further what I meant if you don't have to? Yeah, just take something out of context to have it easier on twisting it around the way that fits your argument and post it here to make it look like my only intention was to cause harm and argue. Well played, but easy to see through. Now what do you say about the points that you actually omitted?

PS: I never said anything about all professors, maybe I did mention "most professors I met", but most doesn't mean all and I still have the right to express my opinion here, even though this should have been about the game, but some of you scientists can't help but bring the numbers, so I had to reflect on that as well, because numbers aren't everything.

 

[Zadwanaa]

@giKon. You are mixing a quote from me with quotes from others and making it seem like it’s all from me. Why?

Because its painfully obvious that people dont like drastic change. Not all people, just small amount of people.

I love A17, Granted ive only got 1300 hrs in, started in A15.1... A16 was fun but got too easy, played the mods.. and there are some AMAZING mods out there and i'm even more excited to see what they can do.

People share their opinions as long as they realize its an opinion and not a fact. My biggest gripes are the birds and unable to use your perks with the death penalty. Too strong. Maybe lose the stats, but not the abilities. Maybe at a reduced amount, but completely losing them is kinda odd.

No loot on zombies? Thank god. Less trash.

Zombies are harder & horde nights are borderline impossible? change the way you play. I've died to birds and to dogs, not regular zombies (even including feral zombies)

Horde night is mean as hell, its what i've wanted... Building a lot more planning. You can still build a base, it'll get wrecked, but it should until you learn how to build properly.

I absolutely love the mod system. Maybe dye not giving damage, kind of a necessity, it feels

Again, its my opinion.

 

[leaderdog]

I always feel bad for Roland. He does a fine job here and he always gets attacked in one way or fashion. Making fun is one thing but he's doing his best.

But I did take offense to Roland's comment about breaking a record with people happily playing. And I was equally pleased that he recanted that statement later.

I was one of the people playing, and I modded the stamina drain for jumping, swimming and running, in order for me to just enjoy the game because the grind and stam loss was just boring to me.

But one thing I have always hated in any and all games is level gating. Grinding for the sake of grinding to lengthen a game is just no fun.

Op nailed many points that I echo as well.

This game gave you endless opportunities to play, which is AMAZING, that's where fun is. When we were children we were given toys, or even a dang box and told to go have fun and we made our own fun. That creativity is why 7dtd was so much fun. It was up to us. Now with the level gating, and painful grind through the skill tree it just rips the fun out of the game.

Adding new and challenging zombies, improving performance, graphics, adding new content is what the game needed. Not level gates and grind.

I used to love starting over because it was fun. This however I don't find fun and will not likely start over until the mods are out or a17 final comes out. And as it stands, I actually forced myself to play just in the hopes that I could bring myself to like it.

I'm hopeful many changes will be coming. but will see soon enough.

 

[mr.devolver]

Roland, you should make a new thread with a poll for players to pick the best comments about Alpha 17. Here are two of my favorite picks so far:

you can make pistol on 20lvl but forged steel, needed for pistol, on 60!

Now it is like I have to kill more zombies to learn to boil an egg, or have to kill more zombies to get better at mining with a pick.

 

[Exxodous]

Ya'll must be smoking crack....I'm having a blast with A17.

/disclaimer: I don't really think you're smoking crack, it's just your experience is so vastly different from my experience that we are either playing different games or one of us is smoking some form of wacky weed..

 

[mr.devolver]

Ya'll must be smoking crack....I'm having a blast with A17.
/disclaimer: I don't really think you're smoking crack, it's just your experience is so vastly different from my experience that we are either playing different games or one of us is smoking some form of wacky weed..

Maybe it's you. My senses are not affected by any kind of drug.

 

[arquebus]

Ya'll must be smoking crack....I'm having a blast with A17.
/disclaimer: I don't really think you're smoking crack, it's just your experience is so vastly different from my experience that we are either playing different games or one of us is smoking some form of wacky weed..

I think generally speaking the people who don't like the changes are the people who greatly prefer the crafting/building side of the game. Those of us who like or even love the changes probably greatly prefer the survival side. A17 is a lot more exciting for me than prior alphas, and I've been playing since maybe around A8.... or whichever alpha it was right before the terrain system stopped being Minecraft-with-grass.

 

[Exxodous]

Maybe it's you. My senses are not affected by any kind of drug.

Mine either, so one of us obviously downloaded the wrong game

Anyway, there is a bright side. A16.4 is still available to all who loved it so much. I'll be sticking with A17 and looking fwd to the challenge.

 

[chaosterone]

I think generally speaking the people who don't like the changes are the people who greatly prefer the crafting/building side of the game. Those of us who like or even love the changes probably greatly prefer the survival side. A17 is a lot more exciting for me than prior alphas, and I've been playing since maybe around A8.... or whichever alpha it was right before the terrain system stopped being Minecraft-with-grass.

A higher difficulty getting mats for building and stuff is part of it, too. Once the TFP balance things a little better I hope the posts become more positive. I started in A12 and am liking this version. In A16 I was safe as soon as I took over a POI on day one. Now it's a challenge because I haven't felt safe yet! And better yet, I'm not so sure you can be.

 

[badmojo]

I think generally speaking the people who don't like the changes are the people who greatly prefer the crafting/building side of the game. Those of us who like or even love the changes probably greatly prefer the survival side. A17 is a lot more exciting for me than prior alphas, and I've been playing since maybe around A8.... or whichever alpha it was right before the terrain system stopped being Minecraft-with-grass.

I really liked how smooth the movement and melee combat felt in a16, but in a17 everything just feels sluggish and the new power attack isn't very satisfying to use, the zombies fly off the end of a sledgehammer like its magic. And you can hit them from so much distance it feels like you are firing a staff. Combine that sluggish mage combat feeling with the encumbrance debuff and it just feels worse and worse the more I loot. I put my points into carrying more, but level gates prevent that from being very effective. Survival itself is still pretty easy to be honest. If you can get past the wooden club stage without getting swarmed by dogs or birds you just have to worry about having meds when looting dangerous areas. Food and water seem easier than in a16, but then I was always obsessed with hunting & cooking so all I see in a17 are steaks running around everywhere just waiting to be harvested. I usually leaned on my friends to carry me in terms of building & crafting.

There is some things I like in a17, like the new buildings & zombie AI improvements. It's also nice to see more zombies when looting, but the 'respawning everywhere' feeling could be toned down in places.

It's a big update with many changes, I don't think it helps to generalize people who have issues with the update. The devil is always in the details.

 

[RayneAngelus]

I can agree that level gating access to iron tools is a poor choice. Your only obstacle on that should be finding the mats you need to make a forge (mostly the leather). But everything else level gated was gated in a16, so that's nothing new. I think a lot of it has actually come down in access level over a16.

Regular vs Power Attack is silly. I do almost nothing but PA, almost never reg attack because it's too weak and doesn't cause stumble/knock down, both of which are vital to early survival and still quite helpful late game. Same with tools. The friggin' Stone Axe has a better base block damage than STEEL so you pretty much have to PA with tools to make them worth it.

Biggest obstacle to doing anything is Stamina. Drains too fast, replenishes too slow. I actually kind of like the fluid max, but the regen rate when doing nothing needs to go way up to balance it. Dunno why Rule 1: Cardio was changed to reduce sprinting stamina loss (in a really odd way) instead of increasing regen when walking or standing around. You're going to get vehicles at some point, at which time getting more stamina regen when running around is... completely worthless, 'cause you ain't running around no more.

The mod system looks promising, though at this time it appears that lots of schematics drop which you can't use because they're not actually in progression.xml. That or they have some unpublished pre-req I haven't unlocked yet. Level gating the schematics to 40 is nuts, though. If you're going to introduce something that's such a big part of the gameplay, it needs to be accessible from early. Sure, tiered fanciness is fine (look at Fallout 4), but complete lockout is just not cool.

Umm, being made aware that wheels no longer drop and need to be crafted would have been nice?

In the long and short I don't really agree with the OP. The game is still fun and has gotten better in many ways, but there's a lot of balance and bug fixing to do before this build gets published.

 

[Darkweaver]

"friend", scoot over here and let daddy tell you a thing or two

 


Classic. I didn't bother reading the rest of your whine.

 

[Bubbahotetp]

Roland,

statistics from my (user) end say this:

I have 13 people on my list who own 7dtd. When a16 dropped 11 of them played it for 3 weeks pretty straight, 7 of them continued playing it for several months.

We are a couple of days into a17, of 8 people I've seen and been playing with 1 person remains who dips in and out occasionally. The rest have abandoned it (for now). Some of us have talked, we feel the same thing. It lost its appeal. Many of those playing with me also have close to 4000 hours in the game, a few have 1500 hours. That's numbers other games can only hope to dream of. The average gaming time I see for many AAA games is 50-120 hours. That's it. Only very few games solicit that much in game time! TFP's success was THERE already, at their finger tips, and now it looks like they dropped the ball!

It's not that there is change, we gamers with half a brain expect change! It's early access! We get that! But from one day to another it turned into a completely different game, and the crux is, it didn't do so in a good way. Most of the good things the game already had going for it that empowered the player are actually gone! That's how we, who used to like the game feel now.

If that's where TFP wanna take it - fine. I also know that they are working hard to make everything better and I grant them that they are somewhat in a new environment with the engine change and everything. But none of that explains these huge changes in game concept that have happened.

I think TFP didn't understand what they had in a16, that they already were successful and that all they would have needed to do was to expand on what they had, solidify it, not to radically alter it. It's no joke when I say that they should actually have played their own game in a16 a lot more to see how fun it was.

I remember MM at one point (maybe 2 or 3 years ago) saying in one of his videos that he wanted to add as many options for the player as possible. I was cheering! But look where we are now - I've never felt so restricted, never felt so forced to play it one certain way alone. If this is where they want to take it, fine! I don't have to like it, and I-do-not-like-it. But if they are interested in what players think (which is something that is to their benefit as a company) then they should consider whether or not it would be a good idea to de-alienate some of the traditional fan base by readapting some of the game's older but more flexible mechanics.

I am actually at a point where I am starting to think that the game concept on the "unreliable & natively buggy" (my personal interpretation) Unity engine is a dream that will never come true, and that maybe TFP have started to realize that, that they are trying to cut their losses and wrap this up as quickly as possible. There were so many visions, there were so many dreams of how to open this game world up and to make everything bigger and better. In stead where this is now headed it looks like triage - cut what can't be fixed within the Unity engine and forget about the big open world this was about initially. The product of a17 looks like they have given up!

The game is becoming more and more like an RPG-element shooter rather than the world were anyone can do what they want the way they want it - where it was with a16. Before, the world was our oyster, which we with our "swords" would open. Now I'm running around chasing xp because I need some skill point unlocks before next horde night. It's ridiculous. One word has totally been forgotten in this discussion - immersion. Before I felt I was a fragile surviver in an open world. Now I feel like I'm in a game, I'm conscious about being in a game because I have to play it all the time worrying about its mechanics. I can't just lean back, sink in, drop out and just be there any more... it's sad.

When this started it looked pretty much like Minecraft and was said to be inspired by it. Now we have a reached a point where players building bases, or digging into the ground, is a total waste of time for them. What's the point then? Seriously? Why do I buy a car if it's stuck in the muck and can't go anywhere ever? There has to be an awakening, a realization that where we are right now is in a great decline of playability, which will be detrimental to the future appeal to new players.

Make no mistake about it - fans have stuck with this non-tripple A game and developer because of great vision and promise of freedom and customizability. If you now start to cut away from that, the only appeal left will be to new customers who want a quick fix because they need to play a game for a weekend or two and who then move on to something else. TFP's economy will then falter because that will translate into a drop of total players over time because there will no longer be long standing fans who are keeping the game up in the ratings. The commitment has been made by TFP towards the fans for years now, a concept has slowly grown from humble beginnings and the devs, the game and the fan community have grown together and grown closer. That was it's strength. The game has slowly developed into what it became at a16, and all of a sudden it makes a great big turn to something that looks a fraction as appealing to the existing customer base. There is a departure from the fan base, maybe to a new fan base (maybe that's the plan?). However, considering that the game has been in early access for many many years now, there needs to be some aggressive marketing of the new concept to catch any new potential buyers who might be adding to the cash flow - sadly a very risky move as it might just be a quick fix, if it works at all. If that gamble doesn't pay off, this game is done for. It would have been much less risky to keep doing what they've done so far - short, quick update intervals, checking responses regarding new ideas with the fans. A very safe way of keeping on a good path and keeping this product strong and groing.

And something else: I don't think that any developer should even be allowed to HINT at that problems in the game should be fixed by modders! If any of the developers think like that then I will keep my eye out for a mod I like, that fixes most of the issues at hand and I will tell TFP the name of the modder and will ask them to send half of what I spent on the game to that modder - because that guy (or girl) is actually doing the developer's job in fixing issues and problems! It's downright lazy as a dev to expect modders to solve their problems! It's completely without excuse and shame on you in that case! If a modder can do the job a dev won't then the dev should not be trusted to make a great game worth its asking price!

To make one thing clear, because the waters are pretty muddy by now - I'm not telling the devs what game they should make. What ever vision they have is theirs and theirs alone. However - I'm without any shame telling them what I don't like about the recent developments. And I think the responses to a17 on this forum and from talks to other players outside this forum and real world player drop off numbers from actually being in the fray, at the front and seeing first hand responses, show that many people agree that a17 has opened up a can of worms that will take some time to deal with, if the devs so please.

This belief in only numbers from servers to prove your point is totally negating the fact that you are sitting as a moderator at the forefront of what is actually creating those numbers - the players who are on this forum. With the help of the people here, if you actually wanted to use statistics to help the game rather than only go on the defensive for the devs (I wouldn't expect anything else from a person in your position, you're doing your job as is expected from you), would be to use the people here to explain the numbers. I don't know you, but it's seems that many people here imply you are good with numbers and statistics. Then you will also know that it's absolutely vital that statistics are well and narrowly defined if you want to be able to read anything from them that you want to build a prognosis on. If the statistics are loosely defined they become useless and misleading, possibly leading to false conclusions about one's own success. You have here at your fingertips the power to put facts behind the numbers buy talking to the people on this forum and asking their opinion. A poll would certainly be a good first step, just to get at facts. What ever they show, you have the power to then use that information to your advantage. If it actually shows that a17 was a success then TFP have my sincere congratulations! I'll just opt out of sharing that success.

Edit: Correction, the last person on my list to still play 7DTD now has actually reverted back to a16.4. I'll be joining them shortly.

- - - Updated - - -

"friend", scoot over here and let daddy tell you a thing or two 


Classic. I didn't bother reading the rest of your whine.

I bet you did.

 

[mr.devolver]

I think generally speaking the people who don't like the changes are the people who greatly prefer the crafting/building side of the game. Those of us who like or even love the changes probably greatly prefer the survival side. A17 is a lot more exciting for me than prior alphas, and I've been playing since maybe around A8.... or whichever alpha it was right before the terrain system stopped being Minecraft-with-grass.

You hit the nail on its head here, but I have a question for you. Do you really enjoy having all those resources and no use for them until very late in game?

 

[hristian991]

agreed with this post also i have no interest in playing anymore i was hoping for better performance like before but i was wrong

also why they don't add new scary enemies like night hunters sort of instead of adding this stupid restrictions (just add stuff for advanced players to make it harder or take an idea from other popular games)

 

[mr.devolver]

The game is becoming more and more like an RPG-element shooter rather than the world were anyone can do what they want the way they want it - where it was with a16. Before, the world was our oyster, which we with our "swords" would open. Now I'm running around chasing xp because I need some skill point unlocks before next horde night. It's ridiculous. One word has totally been forgotten in this discussion - immersion. Before I felt I was a fragile surviver in an open world. Now I feel like I'm in a game, I'm conscious about being in a game because I have to play it all the time worrying about its mechanics. I can't just lean back, sink in, drop out and just be there any more... it's sad.

Tell me about it.. I even felt unsure about what game I'm actually playing. Is this 7 days to die where I can just take the short path and axe my way to get into the house? I felt like I can't even do that, not because it would be hard to do so, but because the game is now so different that I don't even know what still works the way I was used to and what doesn't and it's indeed like playing a whole different game, just not in many good ways.

 

[Blazer777]

bubba may i suggest maybe wait for the stable branch of a17 to come out and try a mod for 7days that may change your opinion and may make game fun again

 

[Moldy Bread]

bubba may i suggest maybe wait for the stable branch of a17 to come out and try a mod for 7days that may change your opinion and may make game fun again

If the only way you can enjoy a game is to mod the hell out of it, then I say there is something wrong with the game or you. A good game should be able to stand on its own merit.