PC 3 lies

[bdubyah]

this conversation we are having...is about the stand alone update for console rwg and crossplay...you are probably right everyone would need a patch for crossplay.

I know that, but they don't necessarily have to come in the same update. Who knows how TFP will do it though. I'd imagine RWG could come to consoles only, and then 1.2 or whatever it is does crossplay for everyone. Hell, maybe PC doesn't need any updates for that at all, or may already have whatever is needed.

I have pointed out before that PC and console have a different perspective when it pertains to game developement. We don't care how it got made...we just expect it to have the features it says it does...that the "bugs" were worked out pre launch. I don't want to wait for ford to build the rest of my car two years after I bought it.

 Is it as simple as : PC get used hard by developers all the time...so much you have given up, accept their behavior as being "how it is" and everyone should just bend over and take it too?

because that is what has happened to the industry...I don't accept it...you don't have to either.

I get what you're saying, but that just isn't how game dev works anymore. Not like it's just TFP with 7 Days. All games pretty much have day 1 patches anymore. Just the nature of it with how complex games have gotten. It isn't the old days where an entire game was a few mb. Likely won't ever be that way again. And using cars is a terrible example. Lol. How many recalls have there been? Terrible example.

You have a super inflated opinion of TFP...other people don't. There is a lot of valid speculation around how TFP handled the first version. TFP did delete entire forums...did shut off public comments. That does EARN YOU SOME DISTRUST. Gee if only they were open. honest and moderately transparent with the fan base when they mess up.

Wasn't really around for all that, so can't say much. But again, this is TFP's forum, and I don't think TellTall devs were here, just some CS reps or something.

Did they SELL the game to TellTale or not? words do matter. If they SOLD the rights to console to Telltale...well then it would no longer be weird to wonder if TFP only cared about the PC version. that we were just a means to an end for TFP...they needed money to work on the PC version...so they sold us outright. Telltales version probably would have been more walking dead themed and different from PC. but...telltale went under...and TFP got a second chance.

I do believe they want the console money...I do believe they know how much money they lost out on. I do believe that since 2019 they have been making wildly unpopular changes to the former PC version just to get the game back on console.

They sold the console rights to the game to TellTale. Because TFP, as they have openly stated numerous time, are not console devs. So they sold the rights to TellTale as they were familiar with consoles. And again, if you people think TFP is hurting that bad for income you need to look at the game's sales. They've likely pocketed well over $100m from the game. Just baseless accusations and conspiracies. Of course they would want to expand the game's availability to console, and to make more money while doing it. They are a business after all.

 

[HammerDano]

Wasn't really around for all that, so can't say much. But again, this is TFP's forum, and I don't think TellTall devs were here, just some CS reps or something.

They sold the console rights to the game to TellTale. Because TFP, as they have openly stated numerous time, are not console devs. So they sold the rights to TellTale as they were familiar with consoles. And again, if you people think TFP is hurting that bad for income you need to look at the game's sales. They've likely pocketed well over $100m from the game. Just baseless accusations and conspiracies. Of course they would want to expand the game's availability to console, and to make more money while doing it. They are a business after all.

Games cost a lot of money to develop....I get that thrown in my face during every conversation about TFP. ie sure they did not get it done when they said they would, but, they have spent a lot of money trying to make it happen. Here I was thinking that that money was investment money, but, whatever, I guess spend money to make money doesn't apply to them.

They got to see how much money they lost selling the console version for the money to keep working on the PC version...7 dtd sold the second most copies of any game telltale released. Suddenly the PC gamers making PC games for PC players saw the value in the "inferior" console market.

Those things did happen. they did delete entire forums when they were proven wrong about their version of what happened...they did stop public comments for years. Even the question of, Did they sell the console version outright, or not? is still controversial,  So I 'd be careful, because they have never, to my knowledge, and I have looked, acknowledged that. They even misrepresented the timeline of when and how long it took to get the rights back...that doesn't earn my trust.

The rules on this site restrict me from even really talking about how restrictive they are...because...this IS their site.

 Unless they've been blowing money on stuff we don't know about I can't see TFP being strapped for cash. They claim over 18 million copies sold, so even at an average of $10 a copy, you do the math. As you say, conspiracies. I say ignorant conspiracies. Which again, paints you guys in a bad light.

I have tried for years to find console sales numbers, pc version numbers, because it was commonly said that console bought many more copies than PC when it launched on console....the sales numbers were touted as 16 million copies sold at the time. Leaving the impression console bought 8 times more copies than PC. without hard numbers it is just speculation.

 

[meganoth]

Again, TFP isn't the main dev for your version.

I am not sure this is correct for the current console version. AFAIK TFP is developing it in-house and hired developers for that task. 

 

[Roland]

I'll admit, I was hoping you would have just given a straight forward answer to a straight forward question. what does "sooner than you think" mean to YOU Roland?

To me, that statement means that I'm not going to have to wait long for the update. It doesn't imply to me an exact time but it does inspire hope that it will be coming very soon. I know why they used that phrase. It is because implementation of crossplay was already done internally and all they were waiting on was a greenlight from Sony and Microsoft.

sure...I suppose it falls on deaf ears here, but, I will point out: simply saying that "you can do crossplay" is on the surface a factual statement. I am sure they "could".

You are misunderstanding what we are saying. We are not saying that TFP can do crossplay as in they have the ability to code it and they could implement it if they wanted to. We are saying that it is already implemented and for months now internal playtesters have been playing game sessions between PC, xbox, and playstation on internal servers. It has been implemented, tested, and is simply awaiting the go ahead by Sony and Microsoft. It is why they felt confident enough to say "sooner than you may think" because all the heavy lifting was already done when they announced crossplay would be coming.

ffs...accept that they royally screw the pooch from time to time. You'll argue til your blue in the face that software developement is hard and things can take longer than expected, but, can't accept that when you are wrong you should own up to it. or is that just me being "unique"?

Not at all. I freely admit TFP has been wrong about their estimated target dates-- frequently. What I don't agree with and what seems to be unique about your perspective is that a missed estimate equals a lie. My whole point is that their incorrect estimate is simply a mistake and something they got wrong whereas you are painting it as a lie. So no blue face from me. They were wrong. It didn't come out sooner than you thought it would.

But there was no lie.

so, somewhere in that paragraph... TFP should take some responsibility for their own actions? or am I getting that wrong?

You're getting it wrong because you desperately want to equate software development to other industries and use car-manufacturing or entre-ordering or ticket-reserving as goofy metaphors for how software development should be handled.

What would you use as an example of that statement? what do you think they delayed to "get right"? 

TFP has rarely delivered an update when they first estimated they would. They have almost always gone over refusing to push the update until they felt it was ready even though it went past the original estimated date they thought they could get it done by. In this current case there isn't anything to my knowledge that is wrong and they are delaying until they can get it right. It is simply waiting for the go-ahead to push out the update.

 

[HammerDano]

To me, that statement means that I'm not going to have to wait long for the update. It doesn't imply to me an exact time but it does inspire hope that it will be coming very soon.

thank you...was that so hard?

You are misunderstanding what we are saying. We are not saying that TFP can do crossplay as in they have the ability to code it and they could implement it if they wanted to. We are saying that it is already implemented and for months now internal playtesters have been playing game sessions between PC, xbox, and playstation on internal servers. It has been implemented, tested, and is simply awaiting the go ahead by Sony and Microsoft. It is why they felt confident enough to say "sooner than you may think" because all the heavy lifting was already done when they announced crossplay would be coming.

say I take that all at face value... and say that I believe you. (and I do).  it does not matter that internally TFP are using crossplay, because, they still have to reassure the platforms that there is nothing that will break the service(s) that they are asking the platforms to provide to the players on TFP's behalf.  clearly that STILL has not happened...any chance you ain't getting the whole story?

Not at all. I freely admit TFP has been wrong about their estimated target dates-- frequently. What I don't agree with and what seems to be unique about your perspective is that a missed estimate equals a lie. My whole point is that their incorrect estimate is simply a mistake and something they got wrong whereas you are painting it as a lie. So no blue face from me. They were wrong. It didn't come out sooner than you thought it would.

But there was no lie.

So they frequently make false statements, they are often wrong, but, they don't tell lies. cool cool.  Do they at least owe some communication acknowledging these things to the gamers?

TFP has rarely delivered an update when they first estimated they would. They have almost always gone over refusing to push the update until they felt it was ready even though it went past the original estimated date they thought they could get it done by. In this current case there isn't anything to my knowledge that is wrong and they are delaying until they can get it right. It is simply waiting for the go-ahead to push out the update.

What was the roadmap for?

 

[meganoth]

If press gets the scoop of a contaminated beverage named Coke the headline is not CCSWB sold a contaminated beverage, it's "what's in your coke". Even though CCSWB does not make it where I buy it.

I find the comparison not too bad.  Though a sensible person would try to find out if the roach was added by the Coca Cola company (which produces and supplies everything but the water) or the botteler and put the blame where it belongs.

But what would happen: Coca Cola would sue CCSWB and surely would be getting the franchise rights back, but would there be a substitute botteling company in that region with empty botteling lines to fill the gap? Surely not, as no company could afford to just sit idling around until a roach accident happens. So the region would be without Coke for a while. Similar to what happened with TFP, just with a lot more delay.

 

[SylenThunder]

here is a lot of valid speculation around how TFP handled the first version. TFP did delete entire forums...did shut off public comments. That does EARN YOU SOME DISTRUST. Gee if only they were open. honest and moderately transparent with the fan base when they mess up.

This is wholly incorrect. TFP did not delete entire forums. It has always been right here.

In fact, when TellTale Games released their version, they did not even bother to put up a forum section for it in their own forums. Instead they just left a link to this forum, and TFP had to make the section to support the consoles.

The only forum section that was removed here, was the bug report/support forum for the console. It only left when TellTale stopped supporting the game, and their liason was no longer able to assist. There was also no real point because there wasn't going to be an update since TellTale Games dropped the ball. They were merged into General Discussion, and we chose to provide support there in the interim.

I will note though, that a lot of older posts were lost when the forum was migrated to new software. I made sure to filter and keep the important stuff though so it wasn't all deleted. We just had to remove any standard chatter that was more than a couple of years old so the migration could take a day or so instead of a few weeks. (Also note that this occurred across all PC sections as well. There was no special action taken to the Console section other than I tried to keep a bit more relevant posts, even though support from TellTale had ended.)

Why is it that most of you that come in here complaining about stuff like this have completely incorrect information?  It's like you just make up what you don't know and post it. It isn't like the history doesn't already exist.

 

[HammerDano]

This is wholly incorrect. TFP did not delete entire forums. It has always been right here.

In fact, when TellTale Games released their version, they did not even bother to put up a forum section for it in their own forums. Instead they just left a link to this forum, and TFP had to make the section to support the consoles.

The only forum section that was removed here, was the bug report/support forum for the console. It only left when TellTale stopped supporting the game, and their liason was no longer able to assist. There was also no real point because there wasn't going to be an update since TellTale Games dropped the ball. They were merged into General Discussion, and we chose to provide support there in the interim.

I will note though, that a lot of older posts were lost when the forum was migrated to new software. I made sure to filter and keep the important stuff though so it wasn't all deleted. We just had to remove any standard chatter that was more than a couple of years old so the migration could take a day or so instead of a few weeks.

Why is it that most of you that come in here complaining about stuff like this have completely incorrect information?  It's like you just make up what you don't know and post it. It isn't like the history doesn't already exist.

how do I prove that something was deleted if it no longer exists...so very sneaky of you to slide in that some stuff got deleted but....just trust you on it...not @%$#ing likely .

 

[bdubyah]

I am not sure this is correct for the current console version. AFAIK TFP is developing it in-house and hired developers for that task. 

Ah, yeah, you are right. Though they mentioned a console team, so it was still more of a dedicated team as opposed to the primary team. I know faatal mentioned helping, but it's not like the original devs are doing all the work.

 

[meganoth]

Ah, yeah, you are right. Though they mentioned a console team, so it was still more of a dedicated team as opposed to the primary team. I know faatal mentioned helping, but it's not like the original devs are doing all the work.

No, but this time any action or inaction is the responsibility of TFP. That is the difference.

I see some justification in the claim that TFP misjudged what publishing on console means. There is a difference there as can be seen by the bad debugging possibilities (no access to the logfiles, no console commands). On PCs this led to gaming companies outsourcing bug-finding to players and especially releasing lots of patches after release. Something that was impossible on console when they still used CDs or cartridges and still is unusual today. Most console players simply are not used to incomplete releases and a high level of existing bugs at release.

That isn't surprising, TFP is new on console, they have to learn a few things just like everyone else. But on the other hand console players can't have the cake and eat it too. For years **most** console players were begging TFP to release a new console game, now they can't complain when TFP tried to get it to them asap. Sure, HammerDano might not have begged for it, but everyone on console gets the same deal, an early incomplete release.

 

[meganoth]

how do I prove that something was deleted if it no longer exists...so very sneaky of you to slide in that some stuff got deleted but....just trust you on it...not @%$#ing likely .

I can confirm SylenThunders story about replacing the forum software with a new one, I was there as well when that happened.

I don't think it is necessary for you to prove your words, but to make claims about a time where it is difficult to prove either way you should be first doing some checking and not simply fill in the unknown simply with the worst explanation. For example it would be nice if you at least listed a few specific examples what you are refering to, i.e. which post about what topic or which forum section was deleted when and why you don't think it could not have been simply part of some cleaning up or removal of posts because they were violating forum rules. And whether you witness it yourself or simply heard from someone else. Asking people who have been here at the time (like Roland or example) what happened before making claims it was to hide incriminating evidence would also be a first step to make sure you are not simply shooting arrows into the dark and hoping one of it hits.

 

[thatguybeard]

No, but this time any action or inaction is the responsibility of TFP. That is the difference.

I see some justification in the claim that TFP misjudged what publishing on console means. There is a difference there as can be seen by the bad debugging possibilities (no access to the logfiles, no console commands). On PCs this led to gaming companies outsourcing bug-finding to players and especially releasing lots of patches after release. Something that was impossible on console when they still used CDs or cartridges and still is unusual today. Most console players simply are not used to incomplete releases and a high level of existing bugs at release.

That isn't surprising, TFP is new on console, they have to learn a few things just like everyone else. But on the other hand console players can't have the cake and eat it too. For years **most** console players were begging TFP to release a new console game, now they can't complain when TFP tried to get it to them asap. Sure, HammerDano might not have begged for it, but everyone on console gets the same deal, an early incomplete release.

I think that is one thing us console players need to remember this is TFPs first console release heck this is their first game release. Yeah there were some issues with the console launch but for me went smooth as warm butter. I’m happy and impressed with what we got even with what is missing. Yeah it’s incomplete but for me it’s as complete as it needs to be to enjoy it. Which is what I have been doing. Didn’t like my neighbors house so I knocked it down. Putting in a beach with island gazebo.

Oh I definitely expect bugs on release as a console player. It’s rare I’m buying/playing day one unless it’s the next game of one I really enjoyed. Had no issues buying this day one even if there was no discount still would have bought it. Games are getting bug patches years after release and some bugs never go. So is life.

I’ve seen the work TFP has put into the game over the years so I trust them to do the same for the console edition. Super happy they were able to bring this amazing game back to us.

 

[meganoth]

About paying another $40 just to prove a point: I won't do that, simply because I don't need to. I didn't have the bad luck that the company folded on me. But if TFP simply had released A16 as complete (which they couldn't do because of kickstarter promises, but lets imagine the kickstarter didn't happen) and today had released 1.0 as a 7D2D 2 I would have payed $40 without hesitation

There is also the custom to pay for merchandise when people are happy about a game and I don't know how much t-shirts and other stuff was bought partly to say "thank you" to TFP, but there were posts of people doing it, don't know if you accept that example.

 

[Dead Smarty]

Something that the gaming industry teached me over the last decade: Buy every game "as is" and never rely on any roadmap, never pre-order and wait till day one patches are out. This way you save yourself loads of frustration.
If you get yourself willingly into early acces or beta versions then you know it can go either way so don't moan about it too much and enjoy the ride. I only got into 7d2d recently but I had it on my radar for a few years. Sofar I'm absolutely happy, just learning the game is good fun to me. The game absolutely shows it is made with PC in mind so I just have to accept the handicaped feeling a controler gives me every now and then.

Whatever they might have said in the past about their plans is irrelevant to me, I bought in on the state it is. As long as they just are open on changes I can't realy see changes of plans as lies. Also keep in mind that even if TFP wants to offer discounts they also have to deal with companies like Sony, wich is absolutely no stranger to charge it's loyal fans multiple times for "upgrades" or reselling games over several generations.

 

[BFT2020]

One must also consider TFP's past history.

They are known to give over optimistic target dates for Alpha releases and the majority of those releases were delayed.  They have years of history of doing that.

At that point, is it even a lie that they missed a target date or just them operating as normal?  And if it is them operating as normal, then it would be consumer ignorance and not researching the history of the company prior to making a purchase the issue, not that the company issuing a lie about a target date.

 

[HammerDano]

About paying another $40 just to prove a point: I won't do that, simply because I don't need to. I didn't have the bad luck that the company folded on me. But if TFP simply had released A16 as complete (which they couldn't do because of kickstarter promises, but lets imagine the kickstarter didn't happen) and today had released 1.0 as a 7D2D 2 I would have payed $40 without hesitation

There is also the custom to pay for merchandise when people are happy about a game and I don't know how much t-shirts and other stuff was bought partly to say "thank you" to TFP, but there were posts of people doing it, don't know if you accept that example.

Every time a console player mentions they had to buy it twice there is a flood of PC gamers posting about how many hours they have gotten out of the game...how it is worth every penny and we should stop "crying" about it. Sorry, tired of seeing it...so yeah...I think if people want to say that they should put their money where their mouth is.  I would not expect you to...you don't say that kind of thing.

In spirit...maybe...people might feel like that is their intent

In practice...no       they expect an item of decent quality that they can display or wear in return...if that item is not of decent quality you'd be getting complaints...expectations of replacement... they are not giving TFP a gift.

One must also consider TFP's past history.

They are known to give over optimistic target dates for Alpha releases and the majority of those releases were delayed.  They have years of history of doing that.

At that point, is it even a lie that they missed a target date or just them operating as normal?  And if it is them operating as normal, then it would be consumer ignorance and not researching the history of the company prior to making a purchase the issue, not that the company issuing a lie about a target date.

Is it healthy to normalize @%$#ty behavior?

Yes, they have been doing this to PC for years.

They put out a roadmap. Who or what was it for?

Is it just a useless bs statement...just an ad to pump up excitement?

or was it a signal to MS and SONY that they know they can't keep operating that way?

 

[HammerDano]

I think that is one thing us console players need to remember this is TFPs first console release heck this is their first game release. Yeah there were some issues with the console launch but for me went smooth as warm butter. I’m happy and impressed with what we got even with what is missing. Yeah it’s incomplete but for me it’s as complete as it needs to be to enjoy it. Which is what I have been doing. Didn’t like my neighbors house so I knocked it down. Putting in a beach with island gazebo.

I cannot say that. They had better have learned something from the first time around. Even if they were not the primary publisher. After all that legal BS I cannot really consider them unblooded virgins.

This relaunch was to and for console...it should not have been released without rwg or crossplay. They did not have a gun to their heads...they REGULARLY MISS SELF IMPOSED TIMELINES...I all caps that to emphasize that has been said over and over AS A DEFENCE FOR TFP...they could have waited until now (it's apparently ready and waiting)...except it probably isn't going to be "ready" for xmas either. So while people may not like it...it is fair to speculate that they needed a cash infusion to carry the rest of developement...and it does have the appearance of being off of console money AGAIN.

Oh I definitely expect bugs on release as a console player. It’s rare I’m buying/playing day one unless it’s the next game of one I really enjoyed. Had no issues buying this day one even if there was no discount still would have bought it. Games are getting bug patches years after release and some bugs never go. So is life.

The gaming industry is imploding right now...because this model "everyone" accepts is failing...no one wants to pay for half finished crap that may or not get finished. it's not just the dei pushback. 

I’ve seen the work TFP has put into the game over the years so I trust them to do the same for the console edition. Super happy they were able to bring this amazing game back to us.

Are they doing the work? I am asking...are they doing the work? From what I have been seeing in this thread, I question when's the last time the brothers worked on this game?

Seems that all the real work has been farmed out. I felt like that during the dev streams pre launch when none of them, Rick, Joel, or Lathan really knew a thing about console...is that why we didn't get even one stream prelaunch just for console player concerns?

or are we going to waste time denying console players were not treated as unwelcome at the 3 dev streams pre launch?

I agree they added a lot of POI's...but are they not just built with/from asset management? Not exactly challenging. Progression reworks? single person modder teams have accomplished as much...in some cases more.

So, I do recognize they have done some work, but, I do not see a lot of progress towards the kickstarter goals. Bandits...storyline...working weather/temperature. So...I disagree...other than adding some assets there has not been a lot of advancement. In my opinion they have been churning the same ground for years. ie progression reworks and new skins are not progress.

So, while I am glad they hired a big outside team...I am concerned that TFP...who most of you admit are terrible at time management, are leaving most the heavy work to an outside company. Did they draw up the time line for how long it should take to accomplish what they could not? will it be titaniums fault if it gets delayed? because it is cult like how unwilling most of you are to hold TFP responsible for anything.

 

[HammerDano]

I can confirm SylenThunders story about replacing the forum software with a new one, I was there as well when that happened.

I don't think it is necessary for you to prove your words, but to make claims about a time where it is difficult to prove either way you should be first doing some checking and not simply fill in the unknown simply with the worst explanation. For example it would be nice if you at least listed a few specific examples what you are refering to, i.e. which post about what topic or which forum section was deleted when and why you don't think it could not have been simply part of some cleaning up or removal of posts because they were violating forum rules. And whether you witness it yourself or simply heard from someone else. Asking people who have been here at the time (like Roland or example) what happened before making claims it was to hide incriminating evidence would also be a first step to make sure you are not simply shooting arrows into the dark and hoping one of it hits.

I have been on the recieving end of what this site considers to be simply removing things for "violating forum rules" so you know I KNOW I can't even bring that stuff up in specific...not without the same thing happening again. that is a catch 22. I am damned if I do and Damned if I don't. 

 

[BFT2020]

Is it healthy to normalize @%$#ty behavior?

Yes, they have been doing this to PC for years.

They put out a roadmap. Who or what was it for?

Is it just a useless bs statement...just an ad to pump up excitement?

or was it a signal to MS and SONY that they know they can't keep operating that way?

No because these dates are target dates - not promised via their first born dates.  As a PC player, I would rather they work on the product and miss the development date rather than make the development date and send out an incomplete or crappy product - aka Cyberpunk 2077

The roadmap explains what is being released when.  So we know based on the roadmap that bandits are coming out before Steam Workshop support.  It prioritizes internally what the team needs to be working on and when they can release the next major update.  If they don't have bandits ready, then that target will be pushed back.

 

[HammerDano]

No because these dates are target dates - not promised via their first born dates.  As a PC player, I would rather they work on the product and miss the development date rather than make the development date and send out an incomplete or crappy product - aka Cyberpunk 2077

The roadmap explains what is being released when.  So we know based on the roadmap that bandits are coming out before Steam Workshop support.  It prioritizes internally what the team needs to be working on and when they can release the next major update.  If they don't have bandits ready, then that target will be pushed back.

I have read this...and I still don't think I fully understand what your position is.

Are you saying that nothing has changed...the only use of the roadmap is to tell us what order they are going to tackle what is missing? that there is no real timeline?