Thoughts on 3.0?

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Honestly, some people never fail to amaze me. It's like the guy who buys from the snake oil salesman for the 30th time in a row and acts all shocked when they get scammed (again), and they lash out at anyone who tells them "you should have learned the first time". It's like they've developed amnesia or something. Pattern recognition isn't that hard. I don't typically like being this blunt with people, it's not the energy I like the surround myself with, but seriously smh. AFAIK, TFP have never hit a release date for a major release based on prior optimistic estimates, and not even close, which is fine, it just is. In addition, aside from one time (this being July), TFP have consistently landed major updates in either June or December for the past 6-7+ years consecutively. If a horse wins the race for the 8th time in a row, I know which one I'm betting on.

Thank you. That is exactly my point: TFP did what we would have predicted. It doesn't mean we need to accept it as good and fine, we surely can critizise it if it bothers us. But it means we don't need to search around for theories to explain it. Because it is exactly as TFP has done all the time.


You have to work on your examples, TFP is a company and not family. Family rules give a lot of room for imperfection but here company rules are aplied. Companies that fail to deliver in time without proper reason loose customers.

Yes. Only my point was different. To say it again in different words: TFPs delays can be critizised if someone wants to do that. But it isn't exceptional, instead it would surprise us if they actually kept a schedule. Right?
 
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Thank you. That is exactly my point: TFP did what we would have predicted. It doesn't mean we need to accept it as good and fine, we surely can critizise it if it bothers us. But it means we don't need to search around for theories to explain it. Because it is exactly as TFP has done all the time.




Yes. Only my point was different. To say it again in different words: TFPs delays can be critizised if someone wants to do that. But it isn't exceptional, instead it would surprise us if they actually kept a schedule. Right?

It's just a case of someone getting entirely too hyperfixated on their emotions on the matter, especially when it comes to the morals of the debate (should, should not). It's like someone denying that (some) people starve from hunger all over the world because "it should not happen". I tend to not listen to these folks. :) It's fruitless.
 
yes...we reached THAT level of discourse. I don't appreciate being ■■■■ed around. How many times Have I gotten ■■■■ed around for asking for updates on progress? for questioning the road map?

Seriously. You very often misunderstand me and put words into my mouth I never said and then complain that you are ■■■■ed around. All I ever said is that I and many long time players don't care how long it takes as we still got a very good deal. I also suggested to you that as long as you are almost the only voice complaining about not getting information about past delays you won't get very far. And that still is true, right?

The rest is you inserting meaing into my words I never said. Because you seem to interpret anything said in the worst possible way.

you are trying to say that because he was a long time forum user he should know TFP better...while failing to see that YOU CAN"T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Other people didn't know...and you seemed to have been fine with that.

I will not join the bandwagon of frustrated users because if there were so many seriously frustrated about delays they should be able to speak for themselves. Especially when I am of the opinion that we eventually get a better product because of TFP not rushing releases.

In other words I am saying while H. should have known better, console user didn't. I wouldn't fault THEM if they came here and were asking questions. But so far it is only you.

you are not addressing that point...you are trying to dance around it. Just like this tap dance about "they could have IF they had just changed how they work" Jesus wept...just admit you are wrong.

Ah right. So for you I am judged and proven guilty, I just don't admit it. And THAT is even a better reason I won't join any bandwagon you are on.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this whole conversation get deleted...you are that off base.
 
Yes. Only my point was different. To say it again in different words: TFPs delays can be critizised if someone wants to do that. But it isn't exceptional, instead it would surprise us if they actually kept a schedule. Right?
My point is: Why even try to make that point?
And in all fairness, a surprise might not realy harm TFP in this case.
 
True, true; no shade intended. I don't even want a world where people need to learn to edit XMLs. I know something of that, but I know next to nothing about .. anything actually useful in an apocalypse! :)

In a car analogy, XML edits vs bandits:
Changing tires vs swapping the gear box from a manual to an automatic - where no automatic box exists as a factory option. One might happen in a day with a youtube vid, the other will run into .. quite a few issues to even get started.
I know that technically it just involves changing a few numbers or toggling some settings on and off, but I think there are so many options that it would take me forever to figure out what I want through trial and error. Plus, I wouldn’t know how to find many of those options in the files because of their strange names—I’d have to watch a lot of tutorials and rack my brain, and honestly, I don’t have the time, the motivation, or the patience for that.
 
I suppose it depends who specifically you're talking about in regards to "a lot of people". My post that InfiniteWarrior was responding to mentioned it being a benefit to console players who couldn't make those changes. But my main point was not about it being easy for PC players to make the changes with mods and that's why it's not a great update.
I’m speaking in general terms—this isn’t about your comment or Infinite Warrior; it’s just what I’ve been reading and hearing out there, that the options are bad or not worth it because they’re modifications to the XML files.

And maybe they are, but for me, they’re worth it and were necessary, even if it’s just a small update—something we already knew beforehand, so it’s no surprise to me.
I get it... people like options. I do, too. But these options just don't matter to me. They are either not game changing or are things that I'd never do. And none of the options I'd consider using would in any way change replayability. If someone wants to do challenge runs, such as no traders, or only primitive weapons, or whatever, then sure... it's game changing and offers more replayability. How many players actually do those kinds of runs? There are many who do, but as far as percentage of total players? I doubt it is anywhere close to the percentage who play PVP, and we all know (other than GM) how low that percentage is.

But that doesn't mean the update is bad. It is underwhelming to me, but that's me.

Btw, I also have little to no interest in bandits or the story and would have been just fine with 2.x being the final "complete" version of the game. But I'll give them a try. I just hope they can easily be disabled.
For me, the update is significant because I’ll probably use a lot of the new features—not because I don’t like something, but just to mix things up and try something different. After so many years of playing, combining different options and playing one way one day and another way the next, I think it adds replayability. Maybe I’ll want to turn off the quests and turn them back on in another playthrough—it’s not that I hate quests—or maybe I’ll turn off the books and try playing with everything unlocked for a quick game, etc.

Btw, I also have little to no interest in bandits or the story and would have been just fine with 2.x being the final "complete" version of the game. But I'll give them a try. I just hope they can easily be disabled.
I'd also like to see development wrap up once the bandits and the story are released as soon as possible; I'm not interested in another 10 years of tweaking and modifying things just to see what happens.
 
Honestly, it astounds me how a forum user from 2017 still overestimates TFP's development speed. You should have seen enough precedence of TFP missing dates and beeing slow in development.

Furthermore the current 3.0 update was prompted (or forced) by a ■■■■storm that demanded lots of the old features to come back. Which was solved by adding all these options.
At the time Madmole clearly said this would delay whatever was still on the roadmap as this development would interrupt the development of bandits and the rest. Now here we have witnessed that delay. Is that really so surprising?

I've been playing since Alpha 15, so I know what the update pace is like. I'm just pointing out that, in my opinion, it's felt even slower than usual over the past year. I’m grateful for the new direction in 2.5; I love the new 3.0 options, even though I’ve already tried a lot of them via mods. Unfortunately 2.5 and 3.0 aren’t enough to me to make me come back, at least vanilla.

What would bring me back is more endgame content, new special zombies that force me to adapt to these new threats, faction-based bandits, new melee combat mechanics, mix of learn by doing + magazines, changes to the AI so zombies aren’t so engineer-like, a story mode, random event systems. Maybe is too much for this old game. For at least a couple of those things to arrive, I’ve already accepted that it will be at least a year later than the roadmap—a long journey through the desert.

Do you have any programming experience so that you could correctly assess how much development time would be needed to develop 3.0? Or is your experience from witnessing movies where hackers get into NSA computers on a regular basis after a few minutes of hacking? Just asking.

Well there is no need to be so agressive. I'm just another loyal player complaining yes, but some criticism is healty. I'm suggesting that IMHO, the pace has slowed down even more—at least when it comes to content—and I wonder what the texture artists, modelers, and others have been working on this past 12 months.

About the roadmap, are you saying can we just assume that every content quoted on the roadmap will eventually be released, just a year later? Is any of the quoted content in the roadmap scrapped forever? I really hope they can clarify the game's future soon; it's about time for a new roadmap, even if it includes fewer specific dates and more details about what's to come.
 
I'm just pointing out that, in my opinion, it's felt even slower than usual over the past year.
Well of course it has. The current 2.5 and 3.0 we have now weren't even supposed to exist. While not major updates they were unplanned ones. Had the cryfest not happened we'd probably be getting the original 3.0 right now, if we wouldn't already have had it that included bandits and whatever else it would've came with.
 
I've been playing since Alpha 15, so I know what the update pace is like. I'm just pointing out that, in my opinion, it's felt even slower than usual over the past year. I’m grateful for the new direction in 2.5; I love the new 3.0 options, even though I’ve already tried a lot of them via mods. Unfortunately 2.5 and 3.0 aren’t enough to me to make me come back, at least vanilla.

What would bring me back is more endgame content, new special zombies that force me to adapt to these new threats, faction-based bandits, new melee combat mechanics, mix of learn by doing + magazines, changes to the AI so zombies aren’t so engineer-like, a story mode, random event systems. Maybe is too much for this old game. For at least a couple of those things to arrive, I’ve already accepted that it will be at least a year later than the roadmap—a long journey through the desert.



Well there is no need to be so agressive. I'm just another loyal player complaining yes, but some criticism is healty. I'm suggesting that IMHO, the pace has slowed down even more—at least when it comes to content—and I wonder what the texture artists, modelers, and others have been working on this past 12 months.

Sorry for that. But it was meant as a serious question. When we are talking about texture artist and modelers I would assume they actually moved on. It seems all bandit models are finished by now. And none of the still missing features seem to need much in that department. Story? Needs programmers mostly. Bandits, probably still needs AI programming, maybe still a POI designer? Random Event System needs programmers. LBD mode or mix needs programmers.

Slowing down depends heavily how much additional work needed to be done for all those options and how much it increased their bug list. Options are often creating edge cases where something doesn't work anymore. Some options seem to be features they could have listed seperately as a full blown feature. Repair degradation for example. Though granted, if that feature is like I think it is, there isn't that much to do to implement it. I also don't know how much balancing they did with those options. Maybe none, but maybe they really tried to polish those options in a way that sensible settings come out, for example for their presets.

Since TFP seems to do a lot of separation of workloads, it is also entirely possible or even likely that for example Faatal was still working on AI and/or RWG mostly and what you see here is just part of the whole effort these past months, some hidden as polishing, some still to be published.

About the roadmap, are you saying can we just assume that every content quoted on the roadmap will eventually be released, just a year later? Is any of the quoted content in the roadmap scrapped forever? I really hope they can clarify the game's future soon; it's about time for a new roadmap, even if it includes fewer specific dates and more details about what's to come.

I have no inside information. But I assume that all the content quoted on the roadmap will eventually be released, because

A) Nobody heard anything of a change of plans, instead TFP said after their buyout that at least up to bandits there would be no changes at all. Which at a minimum confirms bandits.

B) The delay is certainly expected as this options update was inserted into the schedule. It was also communicated that it would be happening and that it would delay all the other stuff

C) There are statements that Behaviour Interactive intends to help finishing the game and there is some indication that BI wants to continue this game as a service game (because they are looking to hire someone doing just that). This means that development will continue, before and after the base game is called finished. Obvious candidates for development are all those items already promised on the road map.

The only fact that puts a small doubt in my mind is BI, the new owner. Their intentions are unknown and despite reassuring words they could step in at any time and change plans. The only sure things are death and taxes
 
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The only issue I have with the current direction of the game was the darn Screamer change - triggering at 25%. I know they're easily dealt with but that only made them even more of a nuisance than any kind of threat. I would prefer they were triggered at 100% heat and be much worse to deal with, making it more imperative to manage your heat. Gotta admit, found it so annoying that I stopped playing since the change.

The heatmap toggle is the one thing I'm really focusing on - hopefully back to leaving some stuff cooking and being able to go out to do a mission. I wish there was more detailed information on it because as far as I can see it goes low, default and high... but what these actually mean isn't clear. The hope is that low makes it back to 100% heat for a screamer.

But I'm looking forward to playing again and maybe dragging some new friends into it with me. Happy Horde Nights, everyone!
 
A Lot of the new ways to play focus on "large hordes of zombies." So my question is are they finally releasing the cap on 30 zombies attacking at a time, or are the "hordes" really just a large group of zombies rather then a horde.
 
I'm hopeful, and I'll lurk around to see if we can get enough multiplayer interest to start up some old school gameplay (25+ players) servers. And by that I mean turning off quests, make a few random working crafting stations in the world (low %), biome progression off, turn off zombie digging, and probably turning down loot. I'm not one to say "the way it used to be" was better in ALL aspects, but it was for many things. Whatever would bring back that zombie apocalypse feel that got lost along the way. Hoping they bring back darker nights, I forget if that was in the update or not.
 
Going to wait until 3.0 to drop and have an opportunity to play it before I make any reflections on it. Really looking forward to the sandbox options added.

And it will be a wait this time before I have a chance to play - Don't think I will get much of chance during the week and already booked solid for the weekend so probably looking two weekends out now. Good thing my character has the "Delayed Gratification" perk ;)
 
Kinda wish there were some more options for farming. Gimme that hoe and some fertilizer!

I've not had a chance yet to look at the farming options. I regularly play with a mod that doesn't make me replant the seeds. I recognize that makes the game a little easier not having to manage seeds and replant, but I don't really want that time sink. This is all an XML change and I wonder if that makes it a possible option or if it is a feature request in disguise.

Code:
<append xpath="/blocks/block[@name='plantedMushroom3HarvestPlayer']">
    <property name="DowngradeBlock" value="plantedMushroom1"/>
</append>
<remove xpath="/blocks/block[@name='plantedMushroom3HarvestPlayer']/drop[@event='Destroy']"/>
<set xpath="/blocks/block[@name='plantedMushroom3HarvestPlayer']/drop[@event='Harvest']/@count">1</set>
 
Yes, to me this is only a "minor" update. If this was still in alpha, does anyone really think TFP would make an entirely new alpha version for it? I doubt it. It would have more likely been something like Alpha 26.7 instead of Alpha 27.

Content-wise it's definitely not a "major" update. But spiritually I think it qualifies.

By which I mean: it's not terribly uncommon for major software updates to be defined by a significant shift in development philosophy. "We used to do everything that way, but from now on we'll do it this way." We've been seeing shades of this during the various 2.x updates, where instead of just outright changing a mechanic they'd turn it into an option and adjust the default.

This is where 3.0 lands for me. It appears to signify a commitment to the "optional" approach to gameplay changes moving forward. And in that spirit, it makes those options much more accessible than they have been until now. Instead of just an "options" page listing all of the options in one mammoth list we've got them broken down into logical categories AND some minimal indication about how some options interact with eachother.

Even better, in my opinion, this list of options is presented at a point in the interface that encourages players to notice them and maybe toy around with them a bit. And for those who face decision paralysis: a selection of interesting presets. Which moves the options from the category "these are kinda cheats aren't they" to "players are meant to engage with these and adjust them to taste".

Also, the UI guy in me admires the amount of planning and work that went into turning a giant list of options into such an intuitive and undaunting interface. User Interface Design is its own skill, entirely separate from both coding and graphic design, and so many game studios really ■■■■ that up. Someone on the TFP team really knows their ■■■■ and did a fantastic job here.
 
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