Thoughts on 3.0?

[InfiniteWarrior]

Like I said, there are those who will do challenge runs and stuff that will enjoy that variety. It isn't something I have any interest in. And I have a feeling most players aren't interested in that, though that's just a guess. Considering I think most players don't bother changing settings, based on the number of people who complain about something that can be changed with a setting.... we'll see.

Either way, as I said, it's definitely a good update for a lot of people. I always support options. These options just don't really interest me personally. The new POI are what are more likely to interest me.

Are you trying to say it's an update, but not a major update, i.e. with hours of new content, story, NPCs, etc.? That's how I feel about it. It's just a "personal preference" update PC players, at least, could accomplish with mods and slight XML changes and doesn't add any significant content to the game at all. Afic, it's still 2.7 and hardly anything "new" to get excited about. I have to wonder why it's being promoted as such.

 

[Prisma501]

I'm exited for it.

 

[HammerDano]

If your cousin Freddy always comes late to parties and you invite him to a party, you probably won't like it and you can certainly critizise him for it, but it should not come as a surprise. And if he is late on this new party you don't need to invent theories about him having a car breakdown or having been mugged, because it is to be expected that he will be late again.

so the console gamers...who this "second" game was aimed at, who were/are not on the forums...they should have known the TFP were full of ■■■■? that's what you are saying.

Well. I will give you that it was not unknown that TFP had taken a looooooooooong time to get to THIS point.

Then they laid out that they were close to finishing the game, they laid out what looked like a reasonable achievable road map (which you are saying the road map was bull■■■■ from the word go)

Yes, sure. Because they had different plans, it is their game they wanted to make. Because any change will have at least some users who don*t like that change, always. For most games customers don't have a way to influence development at all. And early access is no guarantee or includes an obligation that a developer gives up his power to direct development to "random" players.

But you can complain about that surely. Though if your opinion is they should listen to complainers and nostalgic players then you can't complain if they had a change of heart and suddenly listen to them. Either, or. Either they have done something right when listening to the complainers, or they have done something wrong. What is it?

not going to let you twist this into a straw man argument: You have argued this same stuff with me before...remember? I do. I remember you trying to tell me that "it was just mathematically possible for them to meet the road map". now you are saying any fool should have known they would never stay on schedule.

which is it?

In my opinion they have loooooong ignored the public...they seem to only care enough to do something...when it might hurt their money.

If they were looking for a merger at that time it seems a probable assumption. But, does it really matter much? Obviously TFP didn't want to insert that development detour, they were forced by the dropping steam scores. That steam score would have been a problem whether they were looking for a merger or hoping for continued revenue.

yes...it does matter.

I have seen lots of progress. Progress that can be easily discounted with "I didn't ask for it" or "I never wanted this", but nevertheless progress, wanted at least by the developers. That "constant reworking of existing systems" is part of development that you don't see with games in closed development, but is happening there as well, at least with innovative titles.

i don't care about what happens during closed development...no player does...because they are not playing it. They are not getting used to "place holders".

But HeLLKnight didn't complain about that, this is just you adding your own complaints to the mix. He complained about the current speed of development for 3.0 and ignored past development speed of TFP and assumed that 3.0 was just some easy peasy work that couldn't have taken this long. And for that later part some knowledge about development would surely help.

BS

 

[grz__]

Are you trying to say it's an update, but not a major update, i.e. with hours of new content, story, NPCs, etc.? That's how I feel about it. It's just a "personal preference" update PC players, at least, could accomplish with mods and slight XML changes and doesn't add any significant content to the game at all. Afic, it's still 2.7 and hardly anything "new" to get excited about. I have to wonder why it's being promoted as such.

I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that this is an update for newbies and console players, because the settings can be modified in the XML files, etc.

So, based on that argument, why release the bandits and new assets if mods can do the same thing? I play on PC and have over 2,000 hours and I don’t see myself tweaking all those 3.0 settings. For me, the update is interesting even if it’s small.

I get that the roadmap and release dates are a mess—there are no excuses—but 3.0 changes how the game is played and its replayability quite a bit. I’m not super excited about the bandits and the story either—meh—it depends on how they handle it.


This update also touches briefly on the division within the community regarding how the game mechanics work; I felt it was necessary, even if it doesn't cover everything.

 

[Vaeliorin]

That "constant reworking of existing systems" is part of development that you don't see with games in closed development, but is happening there as well, at least with innovative titles.

Not for any project with a competent project manager and an actual budget.

I'll admit, I was quite unhappy when the game that I'd followed for years before purchasing suddenly had a massive shift in direction not too awfully long after I'd purchased it.

I'm resigned to it now, and mods can fix some/most of it, but I'd really like an option to get rid of magazines and make everything learned from schematics again, with not being able to repair things that you can't craft (except by combining.) Also 600 level quality and degradation decreasing item quality instead of max durability (which will be quite annoying if you're doing something that requires you to repair a tool multiple times while out in the field, namely long mining trips.)

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

So, based on that argument, why release the bandits and new assets if mods can do the same thing?

My comment is not an argument. Not sure why most everyone has to treat everything said on the Internet as an argument for or against something, though I have pretty good idea. Why release planned content? Because it's long been planned. NPCs (bandits) and story, which I couldn't care less about myself, were listed as features in the Kickstarter campaign way back when and planned for in the roadmap to finish the unfinished game. They're part and parcel of the planned, finished game, iow. The latest patch is a bunch of settings added to accommodate personal preferences, likely in the hopes of addressing that irreparable rift in the community, ntm (likely) to make the vitriol slung their way moot, though I doubt it will. They don't turn it back into a sandbox, but it's about as close as they can get without undoing years of work adding "RPG elements."

"Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one." TFP is trying to please everyone. Heck, there's already a request for a new setting atop the plethora already added. And so it goes....

 

[grz__]

My comment is not an argument. Not sure why most everyone has to treat everything said on the Internet as an argument for or against something, though I have pretty good idea. Why release planned content? Because it's long been planned. NPCs (bandits) and story, which I couldn't care less about myself, were listed as features in the Kickstarter campaign way back when and planned for in the roadmap to finish the unfinished game. They're part and parcel of the planned, finished game, iow. The latest patch is a bunch of settings added to accommodate personal preferences, likely in the hopes of addressing that irreparable rift in the community, ntm (likely) to make the vitriol slung their way moot, though I doubt it will. They don't turn it back into a sandbox, but it's about as close as they can get without undoing years of work adding "RPG elements."

"Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one." TFP is trying to please everyone. Heck, there's already a request for a new setting atop the plethora already added. And so it goes....

Well, that’s what most people are saying, which is why I’m bringing it up—I’m not talking about you specifically, but to me it doesn’t make sense that people asked for options to customize the experience and now everything is suddenly bad. I just can’t stop being surprised by this game’s community. We all want more content, and the bigger the update, the better, but a lot of us asked for these options. We all know that TFP is a mess with release dates and the roadmap, and that the bandits were going to be delayed—I don’t know why people are surprised. I get that YouTubers need to stir up controversy to make money, but the rest of us?

Aren’t those RPG elements supposed to be a promise too? I wasn’t around for the early versions of the game. Hopefully the bandits come out soon and everyone’s happy—and I get my option to disable them, lol.

Well, you can’t please everyone, but with the customization options, we’re getting a lot closer. Most of the discussions in the community are about small details in how the mechanics work, so it’s better than nothing.

 

[theFlu]

but to me it doesn’t make sense that people asked for options to customize the experience and now everything is suddenly bad.

Grz, meet people; people, meet grz.

Most of it is probably different people; some were asking for settings / liked the ideas, others didn't / wanted something else but didn't say much.
Even some that wanted something specific, and got something close to it ... can still complain about the difference. That often annoys more than an outright "no".
And then there's the few eternal complainers, who'll post just to complain, or argue ... (just to add a category you can file me under ... )

 

[meganoth]

so the console gamers...who this "second" game was aimed at, who were/are not on the forums...they should have known the TFP were full of ■■■■? that's what you are saying.

No. I was replying to HellKnight who seems to be a forum user since 2017 and has posted about 100 messages in the forum. And primarily are talking about his post with you.

Well. I will give you that it was not unknown that TFP had taken a looooooooooong time to get to THIS point.

Then they laid out that they were close to finishing the game, they laid out what looked like a reasonable achievable road map (which you are saying the road map was bull■■■■ from the word go)

Not from the word go, not immediately, but it was obvious they didn't succeed in changing their modus operandi as soon as the first goal was missed.

not going to let you twist this into a straw man argument: You have argued this same stuff with me before...remember? I do. I remember you trying to tell me that "it was just mathematically possible for them to meet the road map". now you are saying any fool should have known they would never stay on schedule.

When they released the road map it was possible to meet the dates on the road map, just by changing how they operate. After they failed the first release date by the same time they usually fail their release dates it was obvious they kept the same routine.

Is that really so hard to understand?

...

BS

Oh, we reached that level of discourse?

 

[grz__]

Grz, meet people; people, meet grz.

Most of it is probably different people; some were asking for settings / liked the ideas, others didn't / wanted something else but didn't say much.
Even some that wanted something specific, and got something close to it ... can still complain about the difference. That often annoys more than an outright "no".
And then there's the few eternal complainers, who'll post just to complain, or argue ... (just to add a category you can file me under ... )

I don't think you fall into that category of people


My point—or rather, my thought—is that people say these options aren't worth it because they could already be done via XML.


So my argument is that it would be the same for other features like bandits or whatever, since there are mods and so on.


I know there are all kinds of people out there, and some who just want to watch the world burn, but for a moment I thought these options might actually get the community to agree on something.

 

[theFlu]

My point—or rather, my thought—is that people say these options aren't worth it because they could already be done via XML.


So my argument is that it would be the same for other features like bandits or whatever, since there are mods and so on.

Well, I dunno ... some of the new settings are "old XML edits". Relatively trivial on PC, but great to have for console. Bandits, their new AI didn't exist, so coding something like that as a mod was a whole nightmare; once there are official AI tasks for humans, at least combining those into something new could be done as XML. The difference is roughly like between filling an Excel sheet and making Excel itself ...

But yeh, groups are weird; to me it looks like the patch is getting a pretty decent reception overall, althou I only really follow this forum, and some JaWoodle. I don't expect a 2.0

 

[grz__]

Well, I dunno ... some of the new settings are "old XML edits". Relatively trivial on PC,

Easy for you, I suppose but not for me

 

[theFlu]

Easy for you, I suppose but not for me

True, true; no shade intended. I don't even want a world where people need to learn to edit XMLs. I know something of that, but I know next to nothing about .. anything actually useful in an apocalypse!

In a car analogy, XML edits vs bandits:
Changing tires vs swapping the gear box from a manual to an automatic - where no automatic box exists as a factory option. One might happen in a day with a youtube vid, the other will run into .. quite a few issues to even get started.