A New Chapter for The Fun Pimps and 7 Days to Die

[Dead Smarty]

One variant of "service game" might be that they publish officially sanctioned mods in a store like bethesda tried years ago (that would be one possibility to get a selection of mods approved for consoles).

Initialy the Fallout 4 mods were not in the PS store but free on the modpage in the game's start menu. On top of that they added the Creation Club with many game breaking paid items. The 10th aniversary update for PS5 changed it and now all mods go throught the Creation Club store, some paid and some still free. The old system did work, the new not so much.

Major difference between Fallout and this game however is the importance of the publisher behind it: TFP/BI will most likely not get the same leeway from Sony as Bethesda/Zenimax got. On the upside: WC/Snail did get full crossplay and mods on all systems so there is hope for people looking forward to mods on consoles. The flipside is that their modsystem is very greedy (50/50 split) and console space for mods very limited. Personaly I am indifferent if it will happen

But whatever happened or will happen, I'm surprised of the level of patience and copium some long time players have.

Yes, but we can still assume that many console players HAVE seen that roadmap. Add word of mouth and I would assume there is a large junk of console players who expect bandits. And if there is a ■■■■storm, that publicity will make even more aware of it.

You can assume for sure. The mother of all F-ups. Unless gaming is your dayjob and you dig deep in every social media platform available to you, you could indeed see the entire history. But it was nowhere mentioned or marketed towards consoles and just a quick goolgle and Youtube search only gave the feeling the game barely existed. There just was no mainstream publicity, only people following the TT version got notified it was finaly a Version 1.0 in early acces for PS5. Also don't overestimate the average console gamers will to do deep dive research: Consoles were supposed to be "plug&play", no studies needed.

Finaly: You can get inspiration for a good game from a good story, even from a bad story. Trying however to shoehorn a good story on an existing game seems to be a bit harder as many poor adaptations have proven. Sofar it seems to me there is only a vague incostent rough draft, maybe stop wasting time on that.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

7D2D will probably get an entry into the guiness book . But apart from that Subnautica2 is not a good comparison.Because a successor game is often much less work as much of its code and assets are based on a finished original game. Secondly many games start EA for their game relatively late in the development process, especially games relying on story like subnautica. And that hides part of the development time and makes comparisons difficult.

True. Probably not the best example, but twelve years is still a very long time.

Trying however to shoehorn a good story on an existing game seems to be a bit harder as many poor adaptations have proven. Sofar it seems to me there is only a vague incostent rough draft, maybe stop wasting time on that.

They have to "waste time" on it because it was advertised as part of the completed game and, therefore, must be included, as unmemorable as I personally expect it to be.

Afic, you've just differentiated a RPG from other games. With a RPG, story and characterization come first; mechanics support them. With most games -- including supposed RPGs today -- it's the other way around. Mechanics rule supreme. If there is a story, it's generally as lame and/or unmemorable as it gets. That's why I see RPGs as close to extinction. Creating a game with branching questlines and meaningful choices is apparently considered too expensive by industry CEOs today who offer the lame excuse that the studio will be developing content "no one will ever see," which is, of course, utter nonsense as that's what accounted for the extraordinary replayability of cRPGs in the first place. Today, instead of getting action games with "RPG elements," the formula is being stripped down even further in the form of survival games, imo. Why produce a RPG when you can just produce the "RPG elements"? Not holding my breath that will change any time soon, if ever, either.

 

[meganoth]

Afic, you've just differentiated a RPG from other games. With a RPG, story and characterization come first; mechanics support them. With most games -- including supposed RPGs today -- it's the other way around. Mechanics rule supreme. If there is a story, it's generally as lame and/or unmemorable as it gets. That's why I see RPGs as close to extinction. Creating a game with branching questlines and meaningful choices is apparently considered too expensive by industry CEOs today who offer the lame excuse that the studio will be developing content "no one will ever see," which is, of course, utter nonsense as that's what accounted for the extraordinary replayability of cRPGs in the first place. Today, instead of getting action games with "RPG elements," the formula is being stripped down even further in the form of survival games, imo. Why produce a RPG when you can just produce the "RPG elements"? Not holding my breath that will change any time soon, if ever, either.

Baldurs Gate 3, Pathfinder something something Righteous, ...

RPGs will not go away, they just won't get produced by many AAA companies who usually flock to the genre that makes the most money currently.
You look at open world or survival games and ask why they often are not really full-fledged RPGs. The answer is simple: They are centered on a different genre.

 

[Dead Smarty]

They have to "waste time" on it because it was advertised as part of the completed game and, therefore, must be included, as unmemorable as I personally expect it to be.

I agree with most of your tought but not on this, not for me and other console gamers: It was part of a roadmap that was not advertised to us and we bought a game in early acces with a disclamer that there would not be any guarantees everything inteded to be part of the game ever would get finished.

So if they stop wasting time pulling a dead horse and focus their energy on basic functions it would be a good thing. I mean, sofar the discussions about the story parts in the game code as found by some turned in to a complete derailed poopstorm.

 

[meganoth]

Initialy the Fallout 4 mods were not in the PS store but free on the modpage in the game's start menu. On top of that they added the Creation Club with many game breaking paid items. The 10th aniversary update for PS5 changed it and now all mods go throught the Creation Club store, some paid and some still free. The old system did work, the new not so much.

Major difference between Fallout and this game however is the importance of the publisher behind it: TFP/BI will most likely not get the same leeway from Sony as Bethesda/Zenimax got. On the upside: WC/Snail did get full crossplay and mods on all systems so there is hope for people looking forward to mods on consoles. The flipside is that their modsystem is very greedy (50/50 split) and console space for mods very limited. Personaly I am indifferent if it will happen

But whatever happened or will happen, I'm surprised of the level of patience and copium some long time players have.

I got the most out of 7D2D's development model, once a year a new big patch that made the game fresh again. I don't know what I should cope about. I assume there are other players here in the forum as well who are in principle getting the best out of the game and the advantages far outweigh some bad spots.

You can assume for sure. The mother of all F-ups. Unless gaming is your dayjob and you dig deep in every social media platform available to you, you could indeed see the entire history. But it was nowhere mentioned or marketed towards consoles and just a quick goolgle and Youtube search only gave the feeling the game barely existed. There just was no mainstream publicity, only people following the TT version got notified it was finaly a Version 1.0 in early acces for PS5. Also don't overestimate the average console gamers will to do deep dive research: Consoles were supposed to be "plug&play", no studies needed.

Ok. But since the games release itself was not really marketed, many of the consoleros who still bought it (aka detected the release) seem to be already above the level of average console gamer. Also I remember that after the telltale crash lots of console players seemed to have posted on twitter asking about 7d2d for console whenever TFP made an announcement. They surely were active enough to have seen the roadmap. And they got friends, some of them were probably streamers. I am pretty sure there is lots of potential for a big ■■■■storm.

Finaly: You can get inspiration for a good game from a good story, even from a bad story. Trying however to shoehorn a good story on an existing game seems to be a bit harder as many poor adaptations have proven. Sofar it seems to me there is only a vague incostent rough draft, maybe stop wasting time on that.

The story which I have assumed all the time to get into 7d2d, i.e. killing one of the factions, was mentioned in this forum a long time ago. I also remember hints about the game having been fully outlined from very early on (except features that were added later as part of the expanded scope). Nothing really suggests that the story was shoehorned very late into the game. Nothing really suggests a vague inconsistent draft because they always kept a big lid on details about the story. Without details what inconsistencies can there be really? Can you give an example?

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

You look at open world or survival games and ask why they often are not really full-fledged RPGs.

No, actually. I don't. Survival games have become a genre unto themselves and are not particularly my cup of tea, but I've stopped wondering why a friend gifted me with 7DTD. I rarely play any other than Subnautica due to the fact that it is "the survival game that doesn't want you [or creatures of the fictional sea] dead." Completely new approach to first person video games in general, which seem content to include maps, populate them with "enemies"; give you weapons; and expect you to kill everything in your way. That's why I don't consider Elden Ring a RPG, either. The Souls games are rich in lore, but the story and characterization the player actually plays through are practically nonexistent. "Go and become Elden Lord," though I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that, all things considered, is your only "objective." The regurgitated lore is absorbed passively. Picking an ending from a list is not the same as getting there through trial and error, yet that's what most "RPGs" are all about today, especially -- as you say -- in the triple A space. It's that which has Fallout fans in an uproar with Bethesda when ZeniMax is far more likely to have made the decision for BGS to stop producing RPGs and start producing action games with "RPG elements". (Not that Todd didn't want to go along with it. He probably did. Makes things so much simpler.)

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I agree with most of your thought but not on this, not for me and other console gamers

That's okay. It was advertised in both the Kickstarter and the published roadmap whether console players were aware of them or not. That's why TFP is more or less obliged to include a story whether they want to any longer or not.

 

[Dead Smarty]

@meganoth Please don't take things too personal if I adress "some longtime players", unless you feel you are quilty.
If you want to analyse the storyparts in the code in detail, @khzmusik tried to do that and it turned very bad very soon to a level you as moderator should remember. Don't try to trick me to going down that rabithole again please.

(Yes, that might feel indeed a bit personal but it is not ment as an attack on your functioning as moderator)

 

[rateds2k]

Absolutely not.
I was interested in the game for a long time for the building aspect but never saw the PS4 version graphicly enjoying enough. The PS5 version looked it was getting there so I just stepped in, expected an early acces game that just needed a few more tweaks but would be fun with friends as it was. Not a game that gets such large overhauls wich is forcing you to start over again and again.
And in all fairness, I don't get excited over bandits or NPC's. Neither about a story getting shoehorned in after the game is complete. Good stories can be the base of good games but this is developed kind of backwards.

So no, I'm not looking forward to a stream of patches focused more on adding missing content than on optimising.

Sounds like you bought the wrong game.

 

[Dead Smarty]

Sounds like you bought the wrong game.

No, seems you did not understand it. I never said regretting spending money and time on 7d2d, I realy had fun with most of it. I just voice my dislike about some possible futures. There's still a chance it will go another way. Thing is we all have to accept that some of us just disagree with what it will be in the end. And I realy hope devs just make their own game and not the game everybody else want, you just can't satisfy everybody at once the same way. If that will be the game I like? Lucky me. If not? I hope lucky someone else but I won't regret the time I've spent playing it.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

@meganoth Please don't take things too personal if I adress "some longtime players", unless you feel you are quilty.
If you want to analyse the storyparts in the code in detail, @khzmusik tried to do that and it turned very bad very soon to a level you as moderator should remember. Don't try to trick me to going down that rabithole again please.

(Yes, that might feel indeed a bit personal but it is not ment as an attack on your functioning as moderator)

7DTD has lore -- much the same lore as the vast majority of postapocalyptic media. "There was...an event. The event was bad. You can see hints at the event in the state of various POIs, etc." That's environmental storytelling for ya. This is the environment you, as a player, are plopped into and there are hints at what happened. A "viral outbreak" occurred. How? No one knows, but suspect it has something to do with the Higashi experimentation, legitimately or not. They could have been trying to come up with a cure. You don't know. What's certain is that someone somewhere decided to drop an atomic bomb, perhaps to confine the outbreak. You don't know.

That's not story. That's environmental storytelling.

 

[meganoth]

@meganoth Please don't take things too personal if I adress "some longtime players", unless you feel you are quilty.
If you want to analyse the storyparts in the code in detail, @khzmusik tried to do that and it turned very bad very soon to a level you as moderator should remember. Don't try to trick me to going down that rabithole again please.

(Yes, that might feel indeed a bit personal but it is not ment as an attack on your functioning as moderator)

As you didn't specify which copium you are refering to and my motives seem to coincide with some other longterm forum users I just thought to mention them. It is as much a sideways comment as your question was. And I didn't feel personally attacked.

Sadly I don't remember that rabbithole, also don't remember any heated discussion about the story (apart from everyone disagreeing with everyone else ). But I am sure that my position in that discusssion was probably that TFP won't care that much about discrepancies in the story (and I get the impression there are already losts of questions we could ask about the timeline in the game, even without story).

Years ago when Madmole was still on the forum he was asked questions about in-game logic (i.e. for example something like "why can we build robot turrets with friend/foe detection but not an electrical oven?") and he said something like "If we need we can explain anything with some mumbo jumbo, who cares?".

 

[Dead Smarty]

That's okay. It was advertised in both the Kickstarter and the published roadmap whether console players were aware of them or not. That's why TFP is more or less obliged to include a story whether they want to any longer or not.

In my opinion that kickstarter has expired once they decided to enter the 1.x versions so If they have better idea's now please let them divert. Lets agree to disagree on that.

7DTD has lore -- much the same lore as the vast majority of postapocalyptic media. "There was...an event. The event was bad. You can see hints at the event in the state of various POIs, etc." That's environmental storytelling for ya. This is the environment you, as a player, are plopped into and there are hints at what happened. A "viral outbreak" occurred. How? No one knows, but suspect it has something to do with the Higashi experimentation, legitimately or not. They could have been trying to come up with a cure. You don't know. What's certain is that someone somewhere decided to drop an atomic bomb, perhaps to confine the outbreak. You don't know.

That's not story. That's environmental storytelling.

I'm all for good environmental story telling, but that whole Duke note implies you already know what got you there. There is no reason why you do not remember how you got there. This is no Fallout were you woke up after an unknown amount time. It maybe does not need a certain route through the map if you want to tell a coherent story but random maps are likely to destroy it if not all key POI's are in there. I'm just all for get a decent base game in a good state and leave all the extra's and story to future DLC and modders.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

that whole Duke note implies you already know what got you there

That whole Duke note seems to imply you were already part of the game world --whatever it is -- and decided to defy the Duke and his apparent demand for protection money -- for whatever reason. lol

That's video game logic for you, afic. Developers have to have some way to get your character or avatar into the game world. Honestly, I'm all for plopping. I mean, amnesia (especially) is so overused and cliche at this point, I'd just as soon never see it again.

 

[Ostentatio]

It doesn't have to necessarily be amnesia or a head wound (in the spirit of New Vegas); in-game mechanics could well be involved.

Spoiler: Unadulterated Conjecture

Dear Friend,
The wasteland can be an unforgiving place, I found you naked and left for dead with no supplies. It looks like you crossed the Duke in a bad way and you could use some help. Enclosed is a short guide to help you survive. If you complete it, we just might take in a new citizen. The White River Settlement, it's real and it's safe.
Peace be with you friend, -Noah

Just a friendly reminder that you pay on time, every time or there will be consequences. Next time we won't be so nice. Thanks for the gear, but you still owe us. See you soon. -The Duke

With the additional detail of being level 1 with no recollection of a single book read, I can declare as fact (unbothered by deeper detail), that The Duke and/or his people strapped the Player down and waterboarded them with Fergit'n Elixirs before dumping them in the Pine Forest with the expectation that Player is nevertheless competent enough to come crawling back, driven by the fires of Stockholm Syndrome, eager to submit tribute for protection.

I also declare, as fact with minimal (zero) research, that the White River Settlement is a Darwinism cult given that Noah - its representative in this moment - found a helpless unconscious non-zombie banished subject of The Duke, saw they 'could use some help', so they stuck a Wilderness Survival for Dummies in the Player's drawers and left a note that indicates White River ain't no free handouts society and will only accept those who can survive on their own.

 

[BFT2020]

FYI this was on the description for XBox

Description​

This game is a work in progress. It may or may not change over time or release as a final product. Purchase only if you are comfortable with the current state of the unfinished game.How long will you survive? With over 20 million copies sold, 7 Days has defined the survival genre, with unrivaled crafting and world-building content. Set in a brutally unforgiving post-apocalyptic world overrun by the undead, 7 Days is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. It presents combat, crafting, looting, mining, exploration, and character growth, in a way that has seen a rapturous response from fans worldwide. Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!

 

[zztong]

7D2D will probably get an entry into the guiness book

I don't think so. I don't know all games, but I bought into "Titanic: Honor and Glory" and they're at 14 years and haven't turned out even a partially playable version of the game. They've gotten stuff into museums and TV shows based on what they've built, a VR demo or two, but no game.

 

[meganoth]

I don't think so. I don't know all games, but I bought into "Titanic: Honor and Glory" and they're at 14 years and haven't turned out even a partially playable version of the game. They've gotten stuff into museums and TV shows based on what they've built, a VR demo or two, but no game.

Do you think they will ever release a finished game? I think such a record would be meaningless if it wasn't about a game that was eventually released. After all it would be easy to create a new record by just starting an EA game and pretenting to still work on it while doing nothing.

 

[khzmusik]

@khzmusik tried to do that and it turned very bad very soon to a level you as moderator should remember. Don't try to trick me to going down that rabithole again please.

The controversy was not about "shoehorning" a story into the existing game. (I never had a problem with that.) It was with the story itself.

For those who don't know, this is the story (as exists in the current game files - hopefully it will change later).

The "bad guys" are led by a corrupt, rich, murderous, untrustworthy "Casino Indian" Native American named "Duke Cassadore." His underlings, the Cassadores, are ignoble savages. (They may or not be the bandits in the game, that is uncertain.)

The "good guys" are let by a naive but noble, impoverished, White settler named either Noah Wright or Noah White. He is leader of the White River settlements.

Also, "Whiteriver" is a real town in Arizona, where 7D2D takes place, and it is basically the capitol city of the White River Apache tribe. So either Noah took the town from Native Americans, or TFP literally whitewashed the real-life town. (Take your pick.)

The traders who sympathize with the Duke and the Native Americans are Rekt and Hugh. The traders who sympathize with Noah and the White people are Jen and Joel. Bob does not sympathize with either.

The story is that you, the player, will choose between the Duke and Joel.

That is the entire story of this game, at least as far as can be determined from the game files. There is no satire, no self-awareness, no notion that this scenario is unrealistic, nothing like that.

Much of this is still in the unreleased "story mode" assets of the game. But much of it is not.

The portrait of a Native American in the game? That is the Duke. The portrait of the while guy with a beard and round glasses? That is Noah Wright/White. The blood-red flag with a stone arrow on it and a big "A" symbol? That "A" stands for "Apache", and it is the Duke's flag.

There is at least one POI where the inhabitants are strung up and murdered. The "strung up and murdered humans" assets in the game were introduced with this POI. This POI also has the Duke flag hanging over it, strongly implying (if not outright stating) that the Duke murdered the people in this POI.

Now, I want to make something very, very clear. I do think the story is racist. But I do not think this means The Fun Pimps are racist, on either the conscious or subconscious level. And I absolutely do not think that they intended this story to be racist.

Example: The "casino Indian" trope was hardly invented by TFP. It has been around for a couple decades now (at least). But it is an entirely false trope. Individual Native Americans cannot own casinos - only tribal governments can; profit from casinos must go to social welfare programs, not individuals; tribal casinos have never been hotbeds for organized crime; tribal casinos are required to make compacts with state governments (meaning any riches Native casinos make must also make the "White" state governments rich); and all of this is micromanaged by the U.S. federal government.

The "casino Indian" trope was not created by TFP, but it is a negative stereotype which is accepted by most people (who probably do not even know it is a stereotype), and it is used exactly as TFP is using it: to present Native Americans as corrupt, greedy, criminal, and antagonistic to White people.

There are an infinite number of reasons that a non-racist could create this story. My personal guess is that they like old Westerns, and also like Fallout, so a game that managed to integrate the casino from Fallout with the "cowboys and injuns" stories from old Westerns would appeal to them. But that is just a guess.

EDIT: If anyone is going to reply to this, please do not do any of these things:

• Involve politics.
• Assume the person you are conversing with is racist.
• Assume the person you are conversing with is accusing you of racism.

I have no power to implement any rules about these things, but I assure you the forum mods do, and will.

Also, I fully expect this post to be moved to an off-topic post. That is a good idea.

 

[zztong]

Do you think they will ever release a finished game? I think such a record would be meaningless if it wasn't about a game that was eventually released. After all it would be easy to create a new record by just starting an EA game and pretenting to still work on it while doing nothing.

That's hard to say. I guess it depends on the folks at Guinness. I could see where they get put into a category of their own.

They just announced (via YouTube) making some early access product available via Steam for 2026, but the announcement video didn't make it sound like the ship would be complete and that they were doing a bunch of restructuring of all the assets they created. (The Steam page is available.)

Their funding seems to be in a few forms: the have Patreon backers, the simulations they have made get used in museums and documentaries, and they had been selling 3D-printed replicas of various ships.

In the past, I had bought access to a VR demonstration that was really cool to "walk around." About half of the ship was available to see.