They are bring a hybrid LBD!

[Kyoji]

I disagree. A game should never have mechanics added to try and contain min/maxers.
It's a waste of time and ruins the game for regular players.

Are we playing the same games? A lot of games restrain min/max. It's why we can't have invincible underground bases in 7D2D or why we have balance patches in Skyrim that change how magic skills operate and these are just the primarily single player games.

It's because fundamentally the core game has to deliver a balanced approach. That isn't to say you have to stomp out everything that is slightly better than something else, but that glaring discrepancies should be looked at and refined as needed for balance.

Also, there is a difference in "having" to bring back LBD for balance purposes versus bringing it back due to popular demand and it just so happens to also help with balancing; although again I suppose that is hypothetically speaking as there will likely be new ways to min/max or cheat the system.

 

[Riamus]

You only understand the instructions because you have experience with the tools. Do you know how many people that don't know what a Philips head screwdriver is? Why... Because they've never used the tools. You have experience, which allowed you to "understand" the instructions. Without that experience, you wouldn't have known what any of those tools where. That being said, changing an alternator is as easy as changing a spark plug or a headlight. There are a couple of bolts, a few wires, and a belt to tension. That isn't a leap in mechanics knowledge or logic if you have already changed your oil.

Who would you rather perform an appendectomy (appendix removal)

The guys that has never held a scalpel, but has a manual
or the guy that has been a surgeon for 10 yrs and doesn't have one?

And lastly, why is experience required for a job even if someone has a degree in said field?

That doesn't even make sense. How does experience without information teach me what a screwdriver is or how it's supposed to be used? With enough trial and error, you could probably figure that out because it is a simple tool. There's only so much you can do with it. But anyone can figure out a screwdriver. You don't have to know the name. Instructions often show a view of the screwdriver head to show what kind to use. Even if it doesn't, it is still about knowledge. Are you going to build a car just by trial and error? Of course not. Can you build one with instruction and study? Yes, though it does require a lot of instruction and study. Practice building a car might improve your speed in building it and memorization might make it easier to not have to keep looking at instructions, but you're not going to create a better or different car by building the same car over and over. You can try different things, but LBD isn't about trying different things. It's about doing the exact same thing repeatedly. If I build a bicycle 1000 times, I can't suddenly build a minibike.

And your surgeon one is absolutely a bad example. I would choose the person with instruction in how to do something and training in it by a qualified professional even if they have never held a scalpel than a person who doesn't know what they are doing and just figures it out on their own as they go. The first is an example of someone who knows how to do what needs done, while the second is what you'd see in some third world country where you're just as likely to be killed than survive regardless of years doing it. I certainly would never trust a surgeon who has no idea what things are or why they work the way they work and who just does what they think is best. Besides, anyone who is a surgeon will have been taught by others and will have read and studied. They wouldn't be surgeons in a vacuum where everything they know is from cutting people open over and over until they figure it out.

Jobs ask for experience more often because they want to know you have training and not just a degree that may not be from a good school. But jobs also often accept people with a degree from a good school even without experience because they know the school taught them well. Quality of education varies greatly. Some give you very little actual skills and just provide knowledge. Others provide you with skills and knowledge both. Since employers often don't know how good your particular school was, they lean toward experience and then they contact your previous employers to find out if you actually knew what you were doing. They don't just accept that you've done X years of work in something because that doesn't mean much. They check with your previous employer to find out how well you did that work and how much you know of it. They can't contact schools (in most cases) to check how well you learned there, so again it is easier to lean into experience, which they can verify. Besides, you can easily turn that around... why do employers care if you have a degree if you have a decade of experience? It's because they want to make sure you understand what you're doing and not just "winging it."

But unspecified jobs are not a good example because what you can or can't do based on learning versus practice varies. You can make music without any training because that is about what sounds good to you and you can hear the notes from other music and just need to learn to play by ear (you hear it and find the notes that sound the same). If you understand something is an instrument, playing it isn't difficult to figure out. Especially considering most people have seen most of the common instruments being played, so already have the knowledge of what needs to be done. I've never played a trumpet and I don't know the fingerings, but I know you blow into one end and press the three buttons. I know you do something with your lips to adjust pitch. Knowing that, I could figure it out on my own with enough time. That doesn't mean you'll be good with just practice. That can vary by person. But you can certainly figure it out. On the other hand, can you just figure out how to make a gyrocopter? Or how about just a generator? If you have no knowledge of electronics or mechanics, it is extremely unlikely that you'd manage to build either without instruction from someone or by reading. No amount of practice will make you able to build those if you don't already have the knowledge.

 

[Riamus]

As one who plays without pushing the limits, the magazines are kinda sucky. If you play "Loot no Respawn"

I'm not sure why you think loot no respawn really affects magazines. I don't play that way, but I am not re-looting the same locations for magazines unless it happens to be a quest I do again. And I still do fine with finding them. The only magazines I struggle to find are the armor magazines because I don't put points into armor and they are rare to find if you don't put points into armor. That's one set of magazines that really needs to be worked on... either cutting the number of magazines to complete the set in half or make them more likely to find.

Then why do you feel you need to grind any of it?

To be fair, if they add LBD, you probably aren't going to be able to just put a point into the skill. Right now, you can spend a single point to improve any main weapon skill by one level right away. You don't need to put any points into the attribute to do so. Note that I said main weapon skills because some secondary skills do require you to put points into the attribute first. Also, as it is now, you can use any weapon effectively without any points. You might run out of stamina more quickly or might do less damage, but you can use any weapon you want effectively. If they add LBD, I would assume that to make it work for weapons, they may make you start out really bad at the weapon (poor accuracy, for example) so that you can improve your skill with the weapon. So you'd not be able to just be good at it from the start.

Anyhow, I think I'll leave the conversation for now. I've made my points and it's unlikely TFP will pay any attention to what I think anyhow, so I'll just have to see what they do and if it's acceptable or I have to mod it out. I agree that magazines are far from a perfect solution, but I prefer them to LBD. I'd like a better solution, but magazines work well enough.

 

[Jost Amman]

Then why do you feel you need to grind any of it?

Because I don't.

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 1:22 AM

This is a lot more fun, definitely more than maxing out a single attribute just for one perk. Is that supposed to be the fun of the game? I want to play the way I want, not be limited by stupid attributes. It might take more time, but I’ll have more fun, and it’s much more rewarding than collecting stupid books and spreading skill points across different attributes.

Nobody forces you to max out a single attribute with the current system.
You can easily have both a main attribute plus a decent secondary attribute before mid game.

If you're saying that you want to become a GOD and be good in ALL attributes, then LBD has nothing to do with that, you're just a min/maxer.
The real freedom lies in the current system. I've explained why before, please don't make me repeat myself.

 

[Jost Amman]

Are we playing the same games? A lot of games restrain min/max.

What do the examples you gave me have anything to do with min/maxers?

Maybe you're confusing my argument with exploiters?
But that's another can of worms altogether.

To clarify: a game should be well balanced, I agree, but I'm saying that the criteria for balancing it shouldn't come from looking at the players in the "extreme" of the play style spectrum.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

Nobody forces you to max out a single attribute with the current system.
You can easily have both a main attribute plus a decent secondary attribute before mid game.

If you're saying that you want to become a GOD and be good in ALL attributes, then LBD has nothing to do with that, you're just a min/maxer.
The real freedom lies in the current system. I've explained why before, please don't make m current system.
You can easily have both a main attribute plus a decent secondary attribute before mid game.

If you're saying that you want to become a GOD and be good in ALL attributes, then LBD has nothing to do with that, you're just a min/maxer.
The real freedom lies in the current system. I've explained why before, please don't make me repeat myself.

I don’t want to be a god lol. I want to develop my own style from the start and not be limited by attributes. And yes, I’m forced to invest in a single attribute just for the spear. I don’t know what difficulty you are on, but one or two points aren’t enough to make any difference, and I’m not going to invest a little everywhere, which makes it hard to max anything. But I don’t want a full learn by doing system like before because that was trash, just restrictions from the books and full freedom when it comes to character development. Reducing the books and having freedom in how you play, that’s what I care about. Yeah, I know, the current system is convenient, simple, and noob friendly. You get 4 skill points at the start, you have potions, you can change whatever you want and that’s just too easy and unrewarding. The game becomes boring because of it. Potions are cheap, money is easy to get, and with the books, you can get overwhelmed. The game feels linear because of this. You go into a POI thinking about books,you buy books from traders, get them as quest rewards, everywhere it’s just books. There are too many, and they ruin the fun. Loot stops surprising you. If you play a bit longer, you really know what items of what tier you’ll get at each stage of the game. So the whole game ends up being just about collecting books and leveling up, there’s nothing else. And probably they won’t change much anyway, since XP scales with the game stage. We’ll see how they handle it, right now we don’t know enough. I hope they give us a heads up before implementing it, instead of just dropping it and it turning out to be a mess.

 

[IzPrebuilt]

All this theorizing and debating is wonderful stimulation of the brain but ultimately it's all kind of pointless. I can come up with 900 reasons why LBD is good and you can come up with 900 reasons LBD is bad and then I can come up with 900 reasons your 900 reasons are invalid and you can come up with 900 reasons my 900 reasons are invalid. That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

What I think matters vastly more is that there's a large outcry from players (vocal minority or not) that indicates LBD is a mechanic worth having at least as an option in 7 days to die. Regardless of if one system is better than another, one system is wanted by a particular group of people more than the other.

Almost all the most popular 7dtd overhaul mods (with combined hundreds of thousands of DLs) ALL use learn-by-doing mechanics Darkness Falls, Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Escape From Tarkov Overhaul, Rebirth, Afterlife AND there's like 5 separate mods with tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of downloads which also return action skills. An undeniably large amount of people want Learn-By-Doing regardless of it's strengths and weaknesses. Anecdotally I see dozens of comments wishing for it's return every day.

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.

 

[Soulmonster]

I will probably enjoy the new system just as I enjoy the current system. What I fear is happening, though, is developers going back and forth on the game in an effort to please some players (vocal minority or not) rather than adding late-game content that I will enjoy and instead of making the game they wanted to make. What will they do if some players (vocal minority or not) complains about the new LBD/hybrid system? Change it again?

 

[ALEXZANDER]

All this theorizing and debating is wonderful stimulation of the brain but ultimately it's all kind of pointless. I can come up with 900 reasons why LBD is good and you can come up with 900 reasons LBD is bad and then I can come up with 900 reasons your 900 reasons are invalid and you can come up with 900 reasons my 900 reasons are invalid. That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

What I think matters vastly more is that there's a large outcry from players (vocal minority or not) that indicates LBD is a mechanic worth having at least as an option in 7 days to die. Regardless of if one system is better than another, one system is wanted by a particular group of people more than the other.

Almost all the most popular 7dtd overhaul mods (with combined hundreds of thousands of DLs) ALL use learn-by-doing mechanics Darkness Falls, Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Escape From Tarkov Overhaul, Rebirth, Afterlife AND there's like 5 separate mods with tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of downloads which also return action skills. An undeniably large amount of people want Learn-By-Doing regardless of it's strengths and weaknesses. Anecdotally I see dozens of comments wishing for it's return every day.

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.

Fact

 

[Jost Amman]

That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

Or maybe we just have different taste?

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.

Of course it comes down to TFP's choice. But in my opinion LBD is a mechanic that not only I dislike because it's mostly useless, but that I consider damaging on a social level (not kidding). The way LBD is often implemented is basically feeding the infantile need of the player te be continuously congratulated over every single micro-achievement.

"Congratulations! You picked a flower! You have gained 0.000001 XP in... Flower Picking!"


This is the same game mechanic often abused by MMOs to keep players addicted to the on-line experience.
No need for that in a single player game in my opinion.

 

[Rotor]

I'm not sure why you think loot no respawn really affects magazines. I don't play that way, but I am not re-looting the same locations for magazines unless it happens to be a quest I do again.

Doesnt loot no respawn apply to all loot? Perhaps I am misinformed and applies to everything else.

So, when I clear a small town and dont have what I need to make the forge, or make the xyz, then move to the next town, rinse repeat. Then only option is to use trader /shudder (which I try to only use as anti RnG mechanic).

If loot no-respawn does not affect the magazine, then I dont know why the above happens, and it appears hamstrung to me.

Then again, very few times do I get to the point where I need a chem station to make buwets.

I probably need to stay out of this one as I may not have the best experience within the game.

When I started the biggest issue for me was finding acid. AKA RnG.

For a slow mover like me, mags dont "feel" right.

 

[Riamus]

Doesnt loot no respawn apply to all loot? Perhaps I am misinformed and applies to everything else.

So, when I clear a small town and dont have what I need to make the forge, or make the xyz, then move to the next town, rinse repeat. Then only option is to use trader /shudder (which I try to only use as anti RnG mechanic).

If loot no-respawn does not affect the magazine, then I dont know why the above happens, and it appears hamstrung to me.

Then again, very few times do I get to the point where I need a chem station to make buwets.

I probably need to stay out of this one as I may not have the best experience within the game.

When I started the biggest issue for me was finding acid. AKA RnG.

For a slow mover like me, mags dont "feel" right.

Yes, it does. I'm not really saying it has no effect, but just that I am not re-looting locations for magazines and still find them easily enough. So reducing loot respawn wouldn't affect my ability to get magazines, or at least very minimally if I happen to re-loot something on rare occasions. My comment wasn't that I thought you were wrong, but that I was surprised that it would feel that way to you. I probably should have worded that better.

Now, if you are staying in a single small town and relying on loot respawns, then I can see it affecting your magazines drops. So it can make a difference. I don't think it makes a significant difference for most people since most probably aren't staying in a single small town and instead at least go to a large town, if not to multiple towns. And it wouldn't have much impact in those cases. But maybe I'm wrong and it is impacting more people.

Anyhow, I think magazines could get a better balance and perhaps have some changes made to make them better. I still prefer them over LBD, though. But if I could have a choice, I'd choose finding schematics for everything you craft that isn't a "required" item instead of using magazines. Basically, bring back A20 crafting schematics. Yes, you could have bad RNG and not be able to craft something until really late in the game, or even not at all. But it made each game different, depending on how RNG worked for you. One game you might be able to craft something good in the early game but not until the late game in another game. It had a noticeable impact on how you played each game. I miss that.

 

[Riamus]

All this theorizing and debating is wonderful stimulation of the brain but ultimately it's all kind of pointless. I can come up with 900 reasons why LBD is good and you can come up with 900 reasons LBD is bad and then I can come up with 900 reasons your 900 reasons are invalid and you can come up with 900 reasons my 900 reasons are invalid. That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

What I think matters vastly more is that there's a large outcry from players (vocal minority or not) that indicates LBD is a mechanic worth having at least as an option in 7 days to die. Regardless of if one system is better than another, one system is wanted by a particular group of people more than the other.

Almost all the most popular 7dtd overhaul mods (with combined hundreds of thousands of DLs) ALL use learn-by-doing mechanics Darkness Falls, Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Escape From Tarkov Overhaul, Rebirth, Afterlife AND there's like 5 separate mods with tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of downloads which also return action skills. An undeniably large amount of people want Learn-By-Doing regardless of it's strengths and weaknesses. Anecdotally I see dozens of comments wishing for it's return every day.

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.

Discussing it and listing all the reasons for or against the idea can help TFP to find a middle ground that works for as many players as possible (if they read this stuff). Otherwise, they could go off and do some strange thing that almost no one likes. There isn't anything wrong with discussing or debating the merits of all possible systems that people can think of. If you don't want to take part, then you don't have to, but there's nothing wrong with others taking part.

And your point about those who like LBD can be flipped right around to those who don't like LBD. If those who like LBD is a vocal minority since you mentioned that as a possibility (I'm not saying it is or isn't because I don't know), then does it make sense to change a game for the minority instead of the majority? What happens if they change it and then the "silent majority" hate it? Change it again? Ignore the majority of players? Now, if the majority want LBD, then obviously that's different. But we don't really know which side is the minority and which is the majority. What people say here or on YouTube or Reddit or wherever is only a very small sampling of people and can't prove one way or another. So TFP has to decide what makes sense to them. It doesn't really matter how loud a group and cry. It is far more important how the majority of players will like or hate what you do.

Also, the majority of players aren't using mods. It doesn't matter how many use an overhaul mod or if all overhaul mods include LBD. That doesn't indicate what the majority of players like or don't like any more than a bunch of fans of a content creator on YouTube or wherever all agreeing with the content creator's opinions. People group with others who have similar opinions and then think that they must represent the majority because they are in an echo chamber. It isn't necessarily true.

In the end, you can take part or not in the discussions, but they aren't going to stop just because you think they are pointless.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

Or maybe we just have different taste?


Of course it comes down to TFP's choice. But in my opinion LBD is a mechanic that not only I dislike because it's mostly useless, but that I consider damaging on a social level (not kidding). The way LBD is often implemented is basically feeding the infantile need of the player te be continuously congratulated over every single micro-achievement.

"Congratulations! You picked a flower! You have gained 0.000001 XP in... Flower Picking!"


This is the same game mechanic often abused by MMOs to keep players addicted to the on-line experience.
No need for that in a single player game in my opinion.

That’s the point the goal is to make the gameplay more challenging and extend it, the current system kills that. If you invest in a single attribute from the very beginning, you become very strong. You’ll find plenty of books probably all volumes from series 1–7 before the first horde. You also can find or buy this modifications that give +1 to an attribute if you’re lucky enough, you become way too strong. I won’t even mention players who max intelligence just for the books and the stun baton, which to me is complete nonsense, and how anyone can swing that electric stick around for half an hour. There’s no natural progression everything is too easy, and you’re much stronger than you should be at your game stage. The fact that you start with 4 points is ridiculous. If they had done it so that you still assign points to action skills but simply get an XP bonus, those 4 points at the start of the game would make a big difference. I can understand books in terms of progression, but for action skills, I have no idea why people like this system. Could you explain to me what you like so much about it? Collecting a huge number of books? Accelerated gameplay? The flexibility of the system? I really don’t know what the appeal is. I’m seriously against the whole “learn by doing” concept like before, but a hybrid system could satisfy a lot of people and slow down progression, and make it more natural. Or you simply don’t think this solution is bad, you just have concerns about how TFP will implement it.

 

[Jost Amman]

That’s the point the goal is to make the gameplay more challenging and extend it, the current system kills that.

You're probably a better player than me then, since for me the current difficulty level is perfect.

I don't even play at bullet-sponge difficulty levels, I play on a humble Warrior difficulty, so I guess you're one of those guys who can win a horde night running around in the open naked with a basic club.

If you invest in a single attribute from the very beginning, you become very strong.

Here's another thing I don't understand, and again, maybe I'm much worse at this game than you are. If I'd put all my points on one attribute in the beginning, I'll surely be a bit stronger with the weapon of that attribute, but I'd also probably starve or die of dehydration because my basic survival skills would probably be all at zero.

So, I don't know, maybe you are much smarter than me and find ways to have (e.g.) 5 STR and Lvl. 3 Shotguns and Clubs in the first few days. Well, for me that's simply impossible.

I won’t even mention players who max intelligence just for the books and the stun baton, which to me is complete nonsense, and how anyone can swing that electric stick around for half an hour.

Two things on this: 1) every player is entitled to have fun as they like ... 2) this is the typical tactic used by min/maxers and, as I said, the game shouldn't find "solutions" based on how min/maxers play. It's a rabbit hole in my opinion.

The fact that you start with 4 points is ridiculous.

I disagree. Many Role Playing Games in the past started with your character profile or job. You had a bunch of points to distribute and make the starting character something other than a creeping ameba. That's exactly in line with RPGs in my book.

I can understand books in terms of progression, but for action skills, I have no idea why people like this system. Could you explain to me what you like so much about it?

What do you mean "for action skills"?
Aren't books used to learn new recipes?

You mean the Perk books? If that's what you mean, well, personally I also like the perk books because they add an additional goal to strive for and give you the option to make your character even more specialized in their role.

I really don’t know what the appeal is. I’m seriously against the whole “learn by doing” concept like before, but a hybrid system could satisfy a lot of people and slow down progression, and make it more natural. Or you simply don’t think this solution is bad, you just have concerns about how TFP will implement it.

The current system is good enough for me. I also like finding books in mailboxes and whatnot. When I go across a town, I'm always looking forward to looting places where I can find books, but, for example, sometimes I wait until I've put points in a skill I want, so that I can have more books of that type when I start looting.

Perk books specifically, add so much variety to the game and make me want to go around more.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

What do you mean "for action skills"?

It’s all about action skills that you develop, which means being limited by that and slowing down progression that’s too fast. I play pretty hardcore: insane/nightmare, no traders, 25% loot (which is unbalanced because there are too many items I hope they fix that). I have loot drops turned off, item respawns disabled, permadeath on, so I play spear for longer reach. I have to invest points carefully; I can’t afford to spread them out too much. I can get Grandpa’s Elixir from level 5 POIs. For me, “learn by doing” is perfect for action skills, especially since I don’t like playing with traders I prefer to focus on killing zombies and want to be rewarded for it without investing in perks.That's why I don't like the idea of having to develop according to attributes when I can play my way from the start and the game rewards me for it. I don't want to invest points in every skill tree a little bit because I need damage.

 

[Jost Amman]

It’s all about action skills that you develop, which means being limited by that and slowing down progression that’s too fast. I play pretty hardcore: insane/nightmare, no traders, 25% loot (which is unbalanced because there are too many items I hope they fix that). I have loot drops turned off, item respawns disabled, permadeath on, so I play spear for longer reach. I have to invest points carefully; I can’t afford to spread them out too much. I can get Grandpa’s Elixir from level 5 POIs. For me, “learn by doing” is perfect for action skills, especially since I don’t like playing with traders I prefer to focus on killing zombies and want to be rewarded for it without investing in perks.That's why I don't like the idea of having to develop according to attributes when I can play my way from the start and the game rewards me for it. I don't want to invest points in every skill tree a little bit because I need damage.

I see. Now I understand why we have such different points of view.
The way we play and experience the game is very different.

In any case, even if you're right to ask for that based on your own play style and difficulty, the game is balanced around more "standard" settings.
Most players don't play on your difficulty level and with all those "handicaps".

 

[IzPrebuilt]

Discussing it and listing all the reasons for or against the idea can help TFP to find a middle ground that works for as many players as possible (if they read this stuff). Otherwise, they could go off and do some strange thing that almost no one likes. There isn't anything wrong with discussing or debating the merits of all possible systems that people can think of. If you don't want to take part, then you don't have to, but there's nothing wrong with others taking part.

And your point about those who like LBD can be flipped right around to those who don't like LBD. If those who like LBD is a vocal minority since you mentioned that as a possibility (I'm not saying it is or isn't because I don't know), then does it make sense to change a game for the minority instead of the majority? What happens if they change it and then the "silent majority" hate it? Change it again? Ignore the majority of players? Now, if the majority want LBD, then obviously that's different. But we don't really know which side is the minority and which is the majority. What people say here or on YouTube or Reddit or wherever is only a very small sampling of people and can't prove one way or another. So TFP has to decide what makes sense to them. It doesn't really matter how loud a group and cry. It is far more important how the majority of players will like or hate what you do.

Also, the majority of players aren't using mods. It doesn't matter how many use an overhaul mod or if all overhaul mods include LBD. That doesn't indicate what the majority of players like or don't like any more than a bunch of fans of a content creator on YouTube or wherever all agreeing with the content creator's opinions. People group with others who have similar opinions and then think that they must represent the majority because they are in an echo chamber. It isn't necessarily true.

In the end, you can take part or not in the discussions, but they aren't going to stop just because you think they are pointless.

Most of this is predicated on the idea that I want them to replace the system entirely.

I want options.

I want them to make LBD the way the LBD fans want it (hint...the past) and I want them to keep LBR for the people who like that and just slap it on a menu toggle. It's really the only way to please everyone. There's no point in the debate IMO because you CANNOT please both so they should just implement both since both are obviously wanted by some amount of people. Right now we know hundreds of thousands of people download mods with LBD and hundreds of thousands don't download those mods.

I imagine we'll see when TFP implements their Hybrid if LBR actually has any meaningful fanbase because of course, if it does, there will be 10 massive overhaul mods just clamoring to re implement learn by reading. Though I have a sneaking suspicion, that won't be the outcome. I suspect the vast majority of the players shrimply don't care in the slightest either way. Something something slop.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

If they will fail with new progression type, i would start to want 7 days without any progression types like rust lol

 

[Jost Amman]

I suspect the vast majority of the players shrimply don't care in the slightest either way. Something something slop.

I agree. That's the same issue we have with "democracy".
Most people don't care enough to go vote, and they end up being governed by someone they don't want, doing things they don't like.