They are bring a hybrid LBD!

I disagree. A game should never have mechanics added to try and contain min/maxers.
It's a waste of time and ruins the game for regular players.
Are we playing the same games? A lot of games restrain min/max. It's why we can't have invincible underground bases in 7D2D or why we have balance patches in Skyrim that change how magic skills operate and these are just the primarily single player games.

It's because fundamentally the core game has to deliver a balanced approach. That isn't to say you have to stomp out everything that is slightly better than something else, but that glaring discrepancies should be looked at and refined as needed for balance.

Also, there is a difference in "having" to bring back LBD for balance purposes versus bringing it back due to popular demand and it just so happens to also help with balancing; although again I suppose that is hypothetically speaking as there will likely be new ways to min/max or cheat the system.
 
You only understand the instructions because you have experience with the tools. Do you know how many people that don't know what a Philips head screwdriver is? Why... Because they've never used the tools. You have experience, which allowed you to "understand" the instructions. Without that experience, you wouldn't have known what any of those tools where. That being said, changing an alternator is as easy as changing a spark plug or a headlight. There are a couple of bolts, a few wires, and a belt to tension. That isn't a leap in mechanics knowledge or logic if you have already changed your oil.

Who would you rather perform an appendectomy (appendix removal)

The guys that has never held a scalpel, but has a manual
or the guy that has been a surgeon for 10 yrs and doesn't have one?

And lastly, why is experience required for a job even if someone has a degree in said field?
That doesn't even make sense. How does experience without information teach me what a screwdriver is or how it's supposed to be used? With enough trial and error, you could probably figure that out because it is a simple tool. There's only so much you can do with it. But anyone can figure out a screwdriver. You don't have to know the name. Instructions often show a view of the screwdriver head to show what kind to use. Even if it doesn't, it is still about knowledge. Are you going to build a car just by trial and error? Of course not. Can you build one with instruction and study? Yes, though it does require a lot of instruction and study. Practice building a car might improve your speed in building it and memorization might make it easier to not have to keep looking at instructions, but you're not going to create a better or different car by building the same car over and over. You can try different things, but LBD isn't about trying different things. It's about doing the exact same thing repeatedly. If I build a bicycle 1000 times, I can't suddenly build a minibike.

And your surgeon one is absolutely a bad example. I would choose the person with instruction in how to do something and training in it by a qualified professional even if they have never held a scalpel than a person who doesn't know what they are doing and just figures it out on their own as they go. The first is an example of someone who knows how to do what needs done, while the second is what you'd see in some third world country where you're just as likely to be killed than survive regardless of years doing it. I certainly would never trust a surgeon who has no idea what things are or why they work the way they work and who just does what they think is best. Besides, anyone who is a surgeon will have been taught by others and will have read and studied. They wouldn't be surgeons in a vacuum where everything they know is from cutting people open over and over until they figure it out.

Jobs ask for experience more often because they want to know you have training and not just a degree that may not be from a good school. But jobs also often accept people with a degree from a good school even without experience because they know the school taught them well. Quality of education varies greatly. Some give you very little actual skills and just provide knowledge. Others provide you with skills and knowledge both. Since employers often don't know how good your particular school was, they lean toward experience and then they contact your previous employers to find out if you actually knew what you were doing. They don't just accept that you've done X years of work in something because that doesn't mean much. They check with your previous employer to find out how well you did that work and how much you know of it. They can't contact schools (in most cases) to check how well you learned there, so again it is easier to lean into experience, which they can verify. Besides, you can easily turn that around... why do employers care if you have a degree if you have a decade of experience? It's because they want to make sure you understand what you're doing and not just "winging it."

But unspecified jobs are not a good example because what you can or can't do based on learning versus practice varies. You can make music without any training because that is about what sounds good to you and you can hear the notes from other music and just need to learn to play by ear (you hear it and find the notes that sound the same). If you understand something is an instrument, playing it isn't difficult to figure out. Especially considering most people have seen most of the common instruments being played, so already have the knowledge of what needs to be done. I've never played a trumpet and I don't know the fingerings, but I know you blow into one end and press the three buttons. I know you do something with your lips to adjust pitch. Knowing that, I could figure it out on my own with enough time. That doesn't mean you'll be good with just practice. That can vary by person. But you can certainly figure it out. On the other hand, can you just figure out how to make a gyrocopter? Or how about just a generator? If you have no knowledge of electronics or mechanics, it is extremely unlikely that you'd manage to build either without instruction from someone or by reading. No amount of practice will make you able to build those if you don't already have the knowledge.
 
As one who plays without pushing the limits, the magazines are kinda sucky. If you play "Loot no Respawn"
I'm not sure why you think loot no respawn really affects magazines. I don't play that way, but I am not re-looting the same locations for magazines unless it happens to be a quest I do again. And I still do fine with finding them. The only magazines I struggle to find are the armor magazines because I don't put points into armor and they are rare to find if you don't put points into armor. That's one set of magazines that really needs to be worked on... either cutting the number of magazines to complete the set in half or make them more likely to find.

Then why do you feel you need to grind any of it?
To be fair, if they add LBD, you probably aren't going to be able to just put a point into the skill. Right now, you can spend a single point to improve any main weapon skill by one level right away. You don't need to put any points into the attribute to do so. Note that I said main weapon skills because some secondary skills do require you to put points into the attribute first. Also, as it is now, you can use any weapon effectively without any points. You might run out of stamina more quickly or might do less damage, but you can use any weapon you want effectively. If they add LBD, I would assume that to make it work for weapons, they may make you start out really bad at the weapon (poor accuracy, for example) so that you can improve your skill with the weapon. So you'd not be able to just be good at it from the start.

Anyhow, I think I'll leave the conversation for now. I've made my points and it's unlikely TFP will pay any attention to what I think anyhow, so I'll just have to see what they do and if it's acceptable or I have to mod it out. I agree that magazines are far from a perfect solution, but I prefer them to LBD. I'd like a better solution, but magazines work well enough.
 
Then why do you feel you need to grind any of it?
Because I don't.
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This is a lot more fun, definitely more than maxing out a single attribute just for one perk. Is that supposed to be the fun of the game? I want to play the way I want, not be limited by stupid attributes. It might take more time, but I’ll have more fun, and it’s much more rewarding than collecting stupid books and spreading skill points across different attributes.
Nobody forces you to max out a single attribute with the current system.
You can easily have both a main attribute plus a decent secondary attribute before mid game.

If you're saying that you want to become a GOD and be good in ALL attributes, then LBD has nothing to do with that, you're just a min/maxer.
The real freedom lies in the current system. I've explained why before, please don't make me repeat myself.
 
Are we playing the same games? A lot of games restrain min/max.
What do the examples you gave me have anything to do with min/maxers?

Maybe you're confusing my argument with exploiters? :unsure:
But that's another can of worms altogether.

To clarify: a game should be well balanced, I agree, but I'm saying that the criteria for balancing it shouldn't come from looking at the players in the "extreme" of the play style spectrum.
 
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Nobody forces you to max out a single attribute with the current system.
You can easily have both a main attribute plus a decent secondary attribute before mid game.

If you're saying that you want to become a GOD and be good in ALL attributes, then LBD has nothing to do with that, you're just a min/maxer.
The real freedom lies in the current system. I've explained why before, please don't make m current system.
You can easily have both a main attribute plus a decent secondary attribute before mid game.

If you're saying that you want to become a GOD and be good in ALL attributes, then LBD has nothing to do with that, you're just a min/maxer.
The real freedom lies in the current system. I've explained why before, please don't make me repeat myself.
I don’t want to be a god lol. I want to develop my own style from the start and not be limited by attributes. And yes, I’m forced to invest in a single attribute just for the spear. I don’t know what difficulty you are on, but one or two points aren’t enough to make any difference, and I’m not going to invest a little everywhere, which makes it hard to max anything. But I don’t want a full learn by doing system like before because that was trash, just restrictions from the books and full freedom when it comes to character development. Reducing the books and having freedom in how you play, that’s what I care about. Yeah, I know, the current system is convenient, simple, and noob friendly. You get 4 skill points at the start, you have potions, you can change whatever you want and that’s just too easy and unrewarding. The game becomes boring because of it. Potions are cheap, money is easy to get, and with the books, you can get overwhelmed. The game feels linear because of this. You go into a POI thinking about books,you buy books from traders, get them as quest rewards, everywhere it’s just books. There are too many, and they ruin the fun. Loot stops surprising you. If you play a bit longer, you really know what items of what tier you’ll get at each stage of the game. So the whole game ends up being just about collecting books and leveling up, there’s nothing else. And probably they won’t change much anyway, since XP scales with the game stage. We’ll see how they handle it, right now we don’t know enough. I hope they give us a heads up before implementing it, instead of just dropping it and it turning out to be a mess.
 
All this theorizing and debating is wonderful stimulation of the brain but ultimately it's all kind of pointless. I can come up with 900 reasons why LBD is good and you can come up with 900 reasons LBD is bad and then I can come up with 900 reasons your 900 reasons are invalid and you can come up with 900 reasons my 900 reasons are invalid. That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

What I think matters vastly more is that there's a large outcry from players (vocal minority or not) that indicates LBD is a mechanic worth having at least as an option in 7 days to die. Regardless of if one system is better than another, one system is wanted by a particular group of people more than the other.

Almost all the most popular 7dtd overhaul mods (with combined hundreds of thousands of DLs) ALL use learn-by-doing mechanics Darkness Falls, Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Escape From Tarkov Overhaul, Rebirth, Afterlife AND there's like 5 separate mods with tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of downloads which also return action skills. An undeniably large amount of people want Learn-By-Doing regardless of it's strengths and weaknesses. Anecdotally I see dozens of comments wishing for it's return every day.

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.
 
I will probably enjoy the new system just as I enjoy the current system. What I fear is happening, though, is developers going back and forth on the game in an effort to please some players (vocal minority or not) rather than adding late-game content that I will enjoy and instead of making the game they wanted to make. What will they do if some players (vocal minority or not) complains about the new LBD/hybrid system? Change it again?
 
All this theorizing and debating is wonderful stimulation of the brain but ultimately it's all kind of pointless. I can come up with 900 reasons why LBD is good and you can come up with 900 reasons LBD is bad and then I can come up with 900 reasons your 900 reasons are invalid and you can come up with 900 reasons my 900 reasons are invalid. That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

What I think matters vastly more is that there's a large outcry from players (vocal minority or not) that indicates LBD is a mechanic worth having at least as an option in 7 days to die. Regardless of if one system is better than another, one system is wanted by a particular group of people more than the other.

Almost all the most popular 7dtd overhaul mods (with combined hundreds of thousands of DLs) ALL use learn-by-doing mechanics Darkness Falls, Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Escape From Tarkov Overhaul, Rebirth, Afterlife AND there's like 5 separate mods with tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of downloads which also return action skills. An undeniably large amount of people want Learn-By-Doing regardless of it's strengths and weaknesses. Anecdotally I see dozens of comments wishing for it's return every day.

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.
Fact
 
That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.
Or maybe we just have different taste? :sneaky:

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.
Of course it comes down to TFP's choice. But in my opinion LBD is a mechanic that not only I dislike because it's mostly useless, but that I consider damaging on a social level (not kidding). The way LBD is often implemented is basically feeding the infantile need of the player te be continuously congratulated over every single micro-achievement.

"Congratulations! You picked a flower! You have gained 0.000001 XP in... Flower Picking!" 🥳


This is the same game mechanic often abused by MMOs to keep players addicted to the on-line experience.
No need for that in a single player game in my opinion.
 
I'm not sure why you think loot no respawn really affects magazines. I don't play that way, but I am not re-looting the same locations for magazines unless it happens to be a quest I do again.

Doesnt loot no respawn apply to all loot? Perhaps I am misinformed and applies to everything else.

So, when I clear a small town and dont have what I need to make the forge, or make the xyz, then move to the next town, rinse repeat. Then only option is to use trader /shudder (which I try to only use as anti RnG mechanic).

If loot no-respawn does not affect the magazine, then I dont know why the above happens, and it appears hamstrung to me.

Then again, very few times do I get to the point where I need a chem station to make buwets.

I probably need to stay out of this one as I may not have the best experience within the game.

When I started the biggest issue for me was finding acid. AKA RnG.

For a slow mover like me, mags dont "feel" right.
 
Doesnt loot no respawn apply to all loot? Perhaps I am misinformed and applies to everything else.

So, when I clear a small town and dont have what I need to make the forge, or make the xyz, then move to the next town, rinse repeat. Then only option is to use trader /shudder (which I try to only use as anti RnG mechanic).

If loot no-respawn does not affect the magazine, then I dont know why the above happens, and it appears hamstrung to me.

Then again, very few times do I get to the point where I need a chem station to make buwets.

I probably need to stay out of this one as I may not have the best experience within the game.

When I started the biggest issue for me was finding acid. AKA RnG.

For a slow mover like me, mags dont "feel" right.
Yes, it does. I'm not really saying it has no effect, but just that I am not re-looting locations for magazines and still find them easily enough. So reducing loot respawn wouldn't affect my ability to get magazines, or at least very minimally if I happen to re-loot something on rare occasions. My comment wasn't that I thought you were wrong, but that I was surprised that it would feel that way to you. I probably should have worded that better.

Now, if you are staying in a single small town and relying on loot respawns, then I can see it affecting your magazines drops. So it can make a difference. I don't think it makes a significant difference for most people since most probably aren't staying in a single small town and instead at least go to a large town, if not to multiple towns. And it wouldn't have much impact in those cases. But maybe I'm wrong and it is impacting more people.

Anyhow, I think magazines could get a better balance and perhaps have some changes made to make them better. I still prefer them over LBD, though. But if I could have a choice, I'd choose finding schematics for everything you craft that isn't a "required" item instead of using magazines. Basically, bring back A20 crafting schematics. Yes, you could have bad RNG and not be able to craft something until really late in the game, or even not at all. But it made each game different, depending on how RNG worked for you. One game you might be able to craft something good in the early game but not until the late game in another game. It had a noticeable impact on how you played each game. I miss that.
 
All this theorizing and debating is wonderful stimulation of the brain but ultimately it's all kind of pointless. I can come up with 900 reasons why LBD is good and you can come up with 900 reasons LBD is bad and then I can come up with 900 reasons your 900 reasons are invalid and you can come up with 900 reasons my 900 reasons are invalid. That's the incredible agony of the human condition we're far too intelligent and stubborn for our own good.

What I think matters vastly more is that there's a large outcry from players (vocal minority or not) that indicates LBD is a mechanic worth having at least as an option in 7 days to die. Regardless of if one system is better than another, one system is wanted by a particular group of people more than the other.

Almost all the most popular 7dtd overhaul mods (with combined hundreds of thousands of DLs) ALL use learn-by-doing mechanics Darkness Falls, Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Escape From Tarkov Overhaul, Rebirth, Afterlife AND there's like 5 separate mods with tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of downloads which also return action skills. An undeniably large amount of people want Learn-By-Doing regardless of it's strengths and weaknesses. Anecdotally I see dozens of comments wishing for it's return every day.

It ultimately comes down to if the Fun Pimps feel that group is worth catering towards or just cutting them loose. Evidently, they've decided it's worth considering putting in regardless of how many epics we all write about it's strengths or weaknesses.
Discussing it and listing all the reasons for or against the idea can help TFP to find a middle ground that works for as many players as possible (if they read this stuff). Otherwise, they could go off and do some strange thing that almost no one likes. There isn't anything wrong with discussing or debating the merits of all possible systems that people can think of. If you don't want to take part, then you don't have to, but there's nothing wrong with others taking part.

And your point about those who like LBD can be flipped right around to those who don't like LBD. If those who like LBD is a vocal minority since you mentioned that as a possibility (I'm not saying it is or isn't because I don't know), then does it make sense to change a game for the minority instead of the majority? What happens if they change it and then the "silent majority" hate it? Change it again? Ignore the majority of players? Now, if the majority want LBD, then obviously that's different. But we don't really know which side is the minority and which is the majority. What people say here or on YouTube or Reddit or wherever is only a very small sampling of people and can't prove one way or another. So TFP has to decide what makes sense to them. It doesn't really matter how loud a group and cry. It is far more important how the majority of players will like or hate what you do.

Also, the majority of players aren't using mods. It doesn't matter how many use an overhaul mod or if all overhaul mods include LBD. That doesn't indicate what the majority of players like or don't like any more than a bunch of fans of a content creator on YouTube or wherever all agreeing with the content creator's opinions. People group with others who have similar opinions and then think that they must represent the majority because they are in an echo chamber. It isn't necessarily true.

In the end, you can take part or not in the discussions, but they aren't going to stop just because you think they are pointless.
 
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