They are bring a hybrid LBD!

[Riamus]

I do see that as an improvement; it's a step up in complexity. For a simple example: If you find a great weapon that you suck at using, you now get an organic side-quest to start improving on it. You have to choose between swapping to it entirely and taking more risks, versus carrying that old extra weapon you're decent with. Otherwise I'd just earn the XP on the old weapon of course (or realistically, in the current game, just get a forgetting elixir).

In case of your mining example, you want "at least this and that" before starting. That's sort of a balancing issue - if the early mining is actually horrible, it should be made a little less so. Of course any design wouldn't satisfy everyone, but since we're living in the world of Magical Potion Vendors, I wouldn't mind some mystical bonus beverage to boost you up temporarily to a 20/100 skill. Not a "+20", just a "set to 20". Or heck, "hire an expert advisor", an NPC yelling at you to perform better during the early mines... mildly expensive, but useful. Some more Rekt voicelines, win win

Now, if one likes that thought experiment, the basic scaling could be changed to set the Zero at whatever that imaginary pleasant "20" is, and scale the rest of the progress from there. The potions would be superfluous.

A bit more of a reflective question: Do you think there could be a satisfying "zero", or would you always feel like you need some of the early progress "in advance" wherever the zero is?

Increased complexity, yes. But that isn't necessarily an improvement. I think most players prefer not having to go through all the old steps for making concrete, for example. The people who prefer a sim still want that back, but most other players (that's my assumption, but it's likely accurate) don't want to go through a bunch of extra steps to make concrete.

As far as weapons, I don't change weapons other than to improve an existing one, such as .44 to desert vulture or from one rifle up to a sniper rifle. So I'm not really concerned about that part unless it makes it a pain to start using a gun after the early game. I'm certainly not interested in wasting ammo in the early game just so I can use a gun effectively on horde night. For that matter, what do you do with something like a rifle? A rifle is rarely a good weapon for normal use, though you can use it for hunting (which you really don't have to do that often) and the occasional POI that has some long distance shots available. But would there be enough use of it to improve your skill in it enough to use on horde nights unless you're just wasting ammo shooting at nothing over and over? You shouldn't make it take a very small number of kills to improve if other guns you'd be using more regularly would require more. kills to improve And if the other guns required a small amount as well, you'd have those maxed out very quickly compared to a rifle.

For mining, the issue is that low level tools take forever to gather any decent amount of ore. Consider if you had to work your way up to use better tools. Have you tried mining with a Q1 stone axe? You can do it, but it takes forever. Even if you keep replacing it as you mine and gain experience, it still takes forever until you can use picks. And even low quality picks take a long time and use a ton of stamina if you don't have points in mining. I often only mine if absolutely necessary before I get an auger. I know some people prefer the high tier/quality picks, but I just prefer the no-stamina augers. About the only ore I need before then is iron and I can get that scrapping cars, which also gives me gas.

For "potions," I can already hear the screams. Some people hate the bonuses on armor because it's "magical." Having drinks to temporarily improve your skill would not likely go over very well with them. And even hiring an expert would not be realistic. Someone standing there and telling you what to do might make it so you don't make mistakes and might offer some advice that helps you do a bit better, but it also normally results in being slow as you listen to the advice and try to do things exactly as described. I doubt listening to an expert could improve your skill from 0 to 20 on a 100 scale instantly. At best, it would just help you gain experience with it a bit more quickly. It shouldn't boost anything directly.

For me, mining is something I don't mind doing once I have an auger, but it's not why I play the game. That means that if it's tedious, I won't want to do it. My zero level is basically an auger with a minimum of 1 point in both mining perks. But that's very high to use as a zero point. I can easily make this work the way things are now because I can actually wait until I reach that point before I do any real mining. Any change that prevents me from waiting and requires me to start at any zero point that would be acceptable to most people wouldn't work for me and would mean I'd probably either get ore from the creative menu, which I wouldn't want to do, or else use a mod to make a tier 1 auger that I can use right away without having to level up to use it. I don't like either of those options and I don't really see a good LBD option that I would want to use for mining.

 

[Riamus]

How do you get better at anything in life?
By repetition and refinement of the action/task.

You get better by learning. Learning occurs in a variety of different ways and schools these days are figuring that out and using different teaching styles to accomplish this instead of rote learning as was done in the past. You can learn through repetition, but that doesn't guarantee improvement. Someone who doesn't know what they are doing could do the same thing over and over a thousand times and not get any better because they don't know how to get better. They're just proficient at the level of skill they are at. You can also learn through reading and study. That doesn't mean that you can't also practice what you learn to get better. You can also learn through someone explaining things to you. This also doesn't mean that you can't also practice what you learn to get better. But given a complex skill, you are more likely to improve your ability to do something through reading and study or direct instruction from someone else than through repeating the same thing over and over. I'm not going to be able to build a stun baton just because I built 100 batons. They are very different even if the shape and use is similar. But if someone explained the electronics behind it or I studied those, then it would not be too difficult to do.

How did we learn how to do this before we had teachers/manuals? We keep refining current tech until a new way presented itself. That is literally the entire story of human tech advancement.

That isn't exactly accurate. Most learning was done through being told how to do things by someone who has done it before, so yes, there were teachers even if they may have been called other names (parents, mentors, masters, etc.). Even when you're trying to develop something new, you aren't starting from scratch. You're building on the knowledge provided to you from people before you. A person today with zero knowledge of guns or anything that goes into making a gun isn't going to start from scratch and just keep trying over and over and be able to have much chance of success. Instead, they learn from books and from people how to do it. They then use the knowledge they have learned to make a gun. Even going back thousands of years, people were still learning from reading and from direct instruction. There is innovation, of course. But that innovation doesn't happen in a vacuum. It requires knowledge that you get from somewhere. Only with that knowledge can you push it further and try to improve on something or create something new that is based on that knowledge. Other than that, innovation can come from luck or chance or accidents, such as how penicillin was figured out. But you can't rely on that.

LBD can sometimes be acceptable to me, but that's when it is entirely naturally occurring and doesn't require you to go out of your way to make it happen. But few games with LBD do it that way. There is a big difference between being able to just play the game the way you want and get enough experience to learn whatever you want versus having to jump through hoops to improve. The first gives you freedom in how you play, while the second restricts you to playing one way only. The first lets me improve my skills by doing what I want, whether that is questing or fighting or mining or building or crafting or whatever else. The second forces me to do things I might not like to do just so I can get better. I've mentioned I can live with mining, but it's not why I play the game, and that if it's too tedious I won't want to do it at all. The current method lets me improve mining so I can do it at a level that isn't tedious. Using LBD, I'd have to spend time with it being tedious before I could eventually reach the point where it isn't tedious, and I'd have to do that every game. That isn't a good thing, imo.

Take a person who likes staying at the base and doing all the building and mining and not bother with fighting, but who wants to still take part in horde night. With the current method, they can gain plenty of experience doing what they enjoy and they can put some points into weapon skills for horde night without having to go out and do a bunch of fighting the rest of the time. With LBD, they would have no choice but to go out and do a lot of fighting if they want to be even a little decent at fighting on horde night.

Or take someone who wants to be the crafter of the group. If they want to craft different weapons for every person, do they have to then go out and make tons of each kind of weapon? Is that better for that person versus just reading magazines? Is it worth using all those resources? Consider an 8 person group and they are each using different weapons. Imagine making a melee and a ranged weapon for each person and having to make enough copies of each of those weapons to get up to T3 Q6. Is that what that crafter is likely going to want? Or is it better to just read all the magazines for all the weapons?

In any case, you won't convince me that LBD is good, so there isn't much reason to debate it. The short of it is that the current method, even if it isn't the best and could certainly be improved, allows far more freedom than LBD. And people are always complaining that the game is forcing people to play a certain way and taking away their freedom in how they play. LBD will just make that even worse for people. I'm not saying they might not find a way that isn't bad, but I think that's very unlikely.

 

[warmer]

You get better by learning. Learning occurs in a variety of different ways and schools these days are figuring that out and using different teaching styles to accomplish this instead of rote learning as was done in the past. You can learn through repetition, but that doesn't guarantee improvement.

You can read a 100 books on Kung Fu, but until you throw a 1000 punches you aren't a white belt yet. I don't know about you, but I have met PLENTY of college educated people with degrees that have no real world experience and couldn't apply their "knowledge" in a meaningful way.

You can't build a proper boat because you read a book about it. You'll mess it up and need to refine it along the way. This is how it works for everything. The only time this isn't an issue is when it's computer code that has (no errors) and it runs perfect.

What are errors in computer code? Lack of refinement you only learn by confronting mistakes.

 

[theFlu]

Increased complexity, yes. But that isn't necessarily an improvement.

Hmm; I'm not one to claim that all complexity is good, but I'm aiming for "organic" complexity. I don't mind mining for 500 nitrate if I've decided I need 500 gunpowder for my d7 pipe bombs. But I REALLY mind mining for 500 nitrate just to get a scout badge that allows me to breathe smoke... LBD can be one of those things that introduces tasks and progress that isn't mandatory (or worse, UI-mandatory) but feels satisfying to do.

For that matter, what do you do with something like a rifle?

Your description/handling of "Rifle skill" seems to rely on plenty of axioms:
- skills develop "per use"
- skills develop "linearly" (each use is worth 1 point and to get to max you need ~10000)
- Rifle skill is actually a straight up thing in itself

Breaking those down, "per use" can be for example "per damage done" - that way you'd always get the same progress if you kill a zed with a pistol or with a rifle.
Linearity can be broken in many ways, usually you do get more power per use early on, just with lower levels requiring less XP. There could also be a timer / an increasing chance to improve. You'd get the "max XP per shot" from shooting once per hour, but you could level up faster by shooting a lot.
Rifle skill itself doesn't need to be the only thing about rifles - using a rifle could improve many sub-skills at once.. "accuracy", "aiming (sta)", "keen eye (critical damage)". Also using / ADSing a pistol could improve some of the same sub-skills. Etc etc. Whether a "rifle skill" is even a thing can be debated ..

I'm not advocating for hugging cacti in any case

Similar things could apply to mining. I do think requiring an Auger for the starter level is a bit much, but that's kinda just a game balance issue; I don't think mining should feel like torture on D1, but if it does, the progress will feel all the more sweet. Finding a good spot on that axis isn't easy though, especially when it's not a "required" part of the early game.

I only suggested the pots as a thought experiment - I'd be "happier" with a (decent LBD + the potions) than with the general point spend we have now; I know it wouldn't be enjoyed by all, but that magic ship seems to have sailed ..

 

[Riamus]

You can read a 100 books on Kung Fu, but until you throw a 1000 punches you aren't a white belt yet. I don't know about you, but I have met PLENTY of college educated people with degrees that have no real world experience and couldn't apply their "knowledge" in a meaningful way.

You can't build a proper boat because you read a book about it. You'll mess it up and need to refine it along the way. This is how it works for everything. The only time this isn't an issue is when it's computer code that has (no errors) and it runs perfect.

What are errors in computer code? Lack of refinement you only learn by confronting mistakes.

And yet you're ignoring the rest that I said. I can throw 1000 punches and not have a clue how to do Kung Fu if no one explains it or I don't read about it.

As far as boats, you actually can build a boat by only reading, as long as what you read has instructions for each step and you are capable of following instructions. Here's a direct example... I had an alternator go on my car years ago. I'm not a mechanic. I don't fix cars. I can do an oil change or change tires, but that's pretty much it. So I watched a YouTube video and then I changed the alternator by following the steps given. No practice needed. Building or repairing things can absolutely be done by reading about it or being taught about it by someone without having to practice. Those things don't normally require any high level of skill to do as long as there are instructions you can follow. There are certain things that do require more direct experience, of course. If you need to machine a part, you most likely aren't going to do a good enough job at it from only reading or being told. The same for getting a good weld. Those things take practice to improve. But at the same time, if you aren't told how to do it or read how to do it, you aren't likely to get much better by just doing it over and over. You need instruction first.

This is why direct LBD is really not very realistic. Hybrid LBD is realistic (you learn by reading or direct instruction and improve through practice). But even if it's realistic, that doesn't necessarily make it good gameplay. TFP has to decide how to add things that will appeal to as many players as possible without pushing away too many players. Things like hardcore survival games are more of a niche genre. There are a lot of people who like those, but compared to all players, it's a relatively small percentage of players. If they make it too hardcore survival, they'll lose a lot of players unless those players choose to mod it back to what they want, of course. But it will also limit the number of new players. If they make it "light" survival, then they can give some survival aspects for those who like survival while keeping it at a point where more players will still enjoy the game. In the same way, making the game too much of an RPG is already alienating a lot of players and RPG players are a higher percentage of total players than survival. So if they want to avoid continuing to push away those players, they should avoid pushing too far into RPGs.

 

[Jost Amman]

My gosh! You guys really think I'll read all those walls of text?
Now I understand why you like grinding and LBD!

I think that someone who likes LBD, and has the "LBD mindset", is simply not able to play the game in a more casual way.
LBD people need to put every tool in its own compartment so they won't be able to enjoy the game any other way.

Me? I play the game by not gaming the game.

I don't analyze the numbers to obtain the best result with something.
I don't study the XML files to learn what's best or worse.

My approach is practical and straightforward and I use my in-game experience to survive better and have better chances.
For that reason I'm not that good a player compared to the numbers of hours I have in the game. It took me longer to learn everything.

I don't always buy the things I need from the trader, but I use the trader only when I have no other choice.
Skill points when I level up allow me to Role-Play my character the way I want, not the way I must like with LBD.

I don't see ANY advantage at all in introducing LBD.
At most I'll live with it and hope it doesn't ruin the current role-play freedom.

 

[Riamus]

Hmm; I'm not one to claim that all complexity is good, but I'm aiming for "organic" complexity. I don't mind mining for 500 nitrate if I've decided I need 500 gunpowder for my d7 pipe bombs. But I REALLY mind mining for 500 nitrate just to get a scout badge that allows me to breathe smoke... LBD can be one of those things that introduces tasks and progress that isn't mandatory (or worse, UI-mandatory) but feels satisfying to do.


Your description/handling of "Rifle skill" seems to rely on plenty of axioms:
- skills develop "per use"
- skills develop "linearly" (each use is worth 1 point and to get to max you need ~10000)
- Rifle skill is actually a straight up thing in itself

Breaking those down, "per use" can be for example "per damage done" - that way you'd always get the same progress if you kill a zed with a pistol or with a rifle.
Linearity can be broken in many ways, usually you do get more power per use early on, just with lower levels requiring less XP. There could also be a timer / an increasing chance to improve. You'd get the "max XP per shot" from shooting once per hour, but you could level up faster by shooting a lot.
Rifle skill itself doesn't need to be the only thing about rifles - using a rifle could improve many sub-skills at once.. "accuracy", "aiming (sta)", "keen eye (critical damage)". Also using / ADSing a pistol could improve some of the same sub-skills. Etc etc. Whether a "rifle skill" is even a thing can be debated ..

I'm not advocating for hugging cacti in any case

Similar things could apply to mining. I do think requiring an Auger for the starter level is a bit much, but that's kinda just a game balance issue; I don't think mining should feel like torture on D1, but if it does, the progress will feel all the more sweet. Finding a good spot on that axis isn't easy though, especially when it's not a "required" part of the early game.

I only suggested the pots as a thought experiment - I'd be "happier" with a (decent LBD + the potions) than with the general point spend we have now; I know it wouldn't be enjoyed by all, but that magic ship seems to have sailed ..

Yes, this is why I said if it occurs naturally, it doesn't bother me. It's when it is required to do something a lot of times that you wouldn't normally do in order to be able to do something that you need to do that it becomes a problem for me, which unfortunately is often how LBD is designed. If I have to make 50 stone spears in order to make an iron spear, then that's not acceptable to me. That isn't natural progression because I have to do something I'm not normally going to do. I know some people craft a lot of things to sell to make money, but this game doesn't even really need money for the most part, so that's not even a good reason to craft so many.

Your comments on rifles seem to not take into account the difference I mentioned between a rifle and something like a pistol. If you get the same progress from a kill, that still requires kills. If you use pistols, you're most likely killing a LOT of enemies with your pistol all the time. If you use a rifle, that isn't the case except on horde nights. It isn't a weapon you use most of the time when clearing POIs, for example. You might have the occasional long shot in some POI and you can hunt with it, but there just aren't anywhere near as many opportunities to kill things with a rifle as with a pistol other than during horde night. So you will always level a pistol up far more quickly than a rifle. Do you have to struggle with rifles on horde nights because you aren't using them the rest of the time? At that point, are rifles even worth bothering to use?

I did mention diminishing returns earlier. If you could only get a certain amount of improvement per hour or per day or whatever, then that would prevent people from feeling the need to spam it. But people who want LBD will most likely complain a lot if that was the case because I *think* a large percentage of the people who want LBD want it because they can spam stuff to level skills more quickly. Maybe I'm wrong and most don't care about that, but I don't think so.

There can certainly be a spot where an implementation of LBD would be acceptable to me. I'm not saying that's not possible. But I don't believe TFP can hit that spot even remotely. Especially with how "off" they have been one what they thought was good lately. The most obvious example were their comments about storms in 2.0 being great and everyone there liked them and you weren't stuck waiting on them and so on, only to accept later that they were wrong and the storms needed a lot of work for a lot of people to actually either enjoy them or at least accept them.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 1:14 PM

My gosh! You guys really think I'll read all those walls of text?
Now I understand why you like grinding and LBD!

I think that someone who likes LBD, and has the "LBD mindset", is simply not able to play the game in a more casual way.
LBD people need to put every tool in its own compartment so they won't be able to enjoy the game any other way.

Me? I play the game by not gaming the game.

I don't analyze the numbers to obtain the best result with something.
I don't study the XML files to learn what's best or worse.

My approach is practical and straightforward and I use my in-game experience to survive better and have better chances.
For that reason I'm not that good a player compared to the numbers of hours I have in the game. It took me longer to learn everything.

I don't always buy the things I need from the trader, but I use the trader only when I have no other choice.
Skill points when I level up allow me to Role-Play my character the way I want, not the way I must like with LBD.

I don't see ANY advantage at all in introducing LBD.
At most I'll live with it and hope it doesn't ruin the current role-play freedom.

Exactly how I feel.

 

[Jost Amman]

And yet you're ignoring the rest that I said. I can throw 1000 punches and not have a clue how to do Kung Fu if no one explains it or I don't read about it.

Don't fall for it Riamus!
They're trying again to pull you into the "realism" narrative.
This is a game, we don't need realism, we need, to the most, "coherent fun".

 

[theFlu]

If you use pistols, you're most likely killing a LOT of enemies with your pistol all the time. If you use a rifle, that isn't the case except on horde nights.

To an extent, sure; but that's merely a quirk of the current design. The hunting rifle Shucks in POIs; you're always better of just meleeing, heck, you might be better off bare-knuckle boxing, regardless of spec. Make the rifle at least somewhat usable and the problem goes away. I wouldn't suggest a POI rework to allow it range, but at least halve the reload time ... I think that's a separate design issue, one that should get improved somehow regardless of any LBD changes.

I could pick some nits, but I mostly agree with the rest, or at least understand it; so I'll try to keep from spiraling by cutting it short

 

[Riamus]

To an extent, sure; but that's merely a quirk of the current design. The hunting rifle Shucks in POIs; you're always better of just meleeing, heck, you might be better off bare-knuckle boxing, regardless of spec. Make the rifle at least somewhat usable and the problem goes away. I wouldn't suggest a POI rework to allow it range, but at least halve the reload time ... I think that's a separate design issue, one that should get improved somehow regardless of any LBD changes.

I could pick some nits, but I mostly agree with the rest, or at least understand it; so I'll try to keep from spiraling by cutting it short

Yeah, if they made changes to rifles to make them more useful in POI, then that would help.

 

[Kyoji]

One of the worst aspect of LBD is that it doesn't allow you to put all your "chips" on one bet. When I'm starting a new game I can currently decide to play an (initially) unbalanced character by putting all my starting points in one attribute to be immediately stronger at something. With LBD that wouldn't be possible. Also, progression has NO VARIETY in LBD, and every game looks samey because you need to follow always the same steps and playe the same way to progress. With skill point you have more freedom.

If anything that sounds like a bonus for LBD. Harder to min/max powerful builds? Sounds not too bad actually. The game still has weapon categories which might be harder to level up due to the player presumably needing to use the weapon to level it which (if done properly) would balance the transitions between weapons rather than going from a low tier weapon to a high tier one just because you farmed mailboxes.

Also, specifically @Roland : I'm all for playing naturally, and I mostly do that in my current play-throughs, but the issue with LBD is that it "locks" you to your actions. As I've stated before, that means that if I need to do something a lot because is necessary for survival, but I don't like it, I'm stuck upgrading and getting better at something I don't like. On the flipside, if I like something that I can't repeat often (for various reasons) I won't be able to level it up and enjoy that type of gameplay.

Bottom line: I don't care how you balance LBD; there's no way I'm gonna like it and it would change the game fundamentally for me.

It doesn't "lock" you out of actions necessarily. The proposed system isn't only LBD but a combination system so we have to see what that entails. I think the balance point comes from managing things that require effort and things that do not. For example, shooting in the air should not count towards weapon mastery but shooting a zombie or bandit should. Likewise I think things that require no investment like jumping or sprinting should have daily caps with the fastest way to level them up being through magazines or some other system. Things like weapon hit registering should not have a daily cap IMO.

But yes I can understand the concerns and for the record I am not a proponent for this change as I think bandits are more important.

The real question is, what does LBD really add that you can't do with skill points.
Maybe the real solution is that after each level-up you also get one additional skill point in one "area" you've been practicing on.

I think, if done properly, it could smooth out transitions between tiers potentially requiring more time spent in each weapon tier before they move on so no more straight to auto shotgun from a pipe shotgun. The progression is one of the things I had an issue with the game. You simply progress too fast. On day one I can get to yellow or blue basic clubs and on day two start on the next tier. To be fair I think it could be solved in the current system as well.

I also think it's not a bad system for people to actually partake in what they are doing? No you shouldn't get 5/5 Miner 69er for doing nothing. Anything that comes too easy in a game is pointless. It's why diamonds in Minecraft were rare such that you went out mining. If everything was easy you would quit after a few hours.

 

[warmer]

And yet you're ignoring the rest that I said. I can throw 1000 punches and not have a clue how to do Kung Fu if no one explains it or I don't read about it.

Here is a personal example. I was never taught how to play music. I didn't take a single class until I was 20 in college. What I learned was how to read music and what the names of the chords were. At that time I had already released two albums of music I had self recorded and mixed because I spent 1000's of hours learning by doing. Trial and error. What works what doesn't.

When I finally took classes, all I learned was what the "proper names" were for things I had discovered on my own many years ago.

The first 100 punches you throw won't do any damage because you are figuring out the body mechanics. After hitting a bag 1000 times, your punches are REALLY going to hurt because you have trained yourself how to optimize the motion through repetition. Your example while sure you don't know "Kung Fu" is accurate, but you certainly know how to throw a punch.

That being said, I didn't ignore the rest of what you said, I read it and I didn't feel it warranted a response. You are saying things like "what about the guy that likes building, how is he going to participate in horde night?"

Have you ever played an RPG where they had classes that specialize? That is the entire reason I didn't bother to respond to that part. It's really silly. You want to be a master of all trades, and that simply isn't how any RPG is intended to work. Specialization is practically baked into the genre. Your example is based on fantasy. Mine is based on reality. AND SURE it's a video game with zombies, but that doesn't mean we have to abandon all of the real world examples we know of in favor of min maxing your build.

 

[warmer]

Here's a direct example... I had an alternator go on my car years ago. I'm not a mechanic. I don't fix cars. I can do an oil change or change tires, but that's pretty much it. So I watched a YouTube video and then I changed the alternator by following the steps given. No practice needed. Building or repairing things can absolutely be done by reading about it or being taught about it by someone without having to practice. Those things don't normally require any high level of skill to do as long as there are instructions you can follow.

You only understand the instructions because you have experience with the tools. Do you know how many people that don't know what a Philips head screwdriver is? Why... Because they've never used the tools. You have experience, which allowed you to "understand" the instructions. Without that experience, you wouldn't have known what any of those tools where. That being said, changing an alternator is as easy as changing a spark plug or a headlight. There are a couple of bolts, a few wires, and a belt to tension. That isn't a leap in mechanics knowledge or logic if you have already changed your oil.

Who would you rather perform an appendectomy (appendix removal)

The guys that has never held a scalpel, but has a manual
or the guy that has been a surgeon for 10 yrs and doesn't have one?

And lastly, why is experience required for a job even if someone has a degree in said field?

 

[Jost Amman]

If anything that sounds like a bonus for LBD. Harder to min/max powerful builds? Sounds not too bad actually.

I disagree. A game should never have mechanics added to try and contain min/maxers.
It's a waste of time and ruins the game for regular players.

 

[Rotor]

I disagree. A game should never have mechanics added to try and contain min/maxers.
It's a waste of time and ruins the game for regular players.

On the design portion we agree. As one who plays without pushing the limits, the magazines are kinda sucky. If you play "Loot no Respawn"

Have you ever played an RPG where they had classes that specialize?

Actually, on a personal level, I usually choose a "character" "class" where I am jack of all trades and master of none. As I like to be self sufficient for the most part. After that I go for pure damage dealing if available.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

Learning by doing is much better and more convenient for action skills. Let's say I play with the spear from the beginning and I only like it. The rest of the weapons I like are scattered across different perks. What's the point? I would have to invest a ton of points just to play the way I want from the whole perception tree. I only like the spear. Why should I spend a lot of points on it instead of playing from the start with the spear, shotgun, and machine gun the only three weapons I use and additionally, from the beginning of the game, their skills would grow and I could develop as I want? I wouldn't be spending extra points on digging, so at the same time, while building a base or collecting some materials, I would be grinding.

 

[Jost Amman]

Learning by doing is much better and more convenient for action skills. Let's say I play with the spear from the beginning and I only like it. The rest of the weapons I like are scattered across different perks. What's the point? I would have to invest a ton of points just to play the way I want from the whole perception tree. I only like the spear. Why should I spend a lot of points on it instead of playing from the start with the spear, shotgun, and machine gun the only three weapons I use and additionally, from the beginning of the game, their skills would grow and I could develop as I want? I wouldn't be spending extra points on digging, so at the same time, while building a base or collecting some materials, I would be grinding.

I don't think your example works. You're describing LBD grinding like if it was a lot of fun, but in your own example I'd bet it would take a HUGE amount of time to level up all three weapons to a decent level with LBD.

With skills you focus on a main attribute and can easily pick a secondary one and raise it to a decent level.
Most weapons can work decently with just one skill point invested by the way.

 

[theFlu]

Most weapons can work decently with just one skill point invested by the way.

Then why do you feel you need to grind any of it?

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

I don't think your example works. You're describing LBD grinding like if it was a lot of fun, but in your own example I'd bet it would take a HUGE amount of time to level up all three weapons to a decent level with LBD.

This is a lot more fun, definitely more than maxing out a single attribute just for one perk. Is that supposed to be the fun of the game? I want to play the way I want, not be limited by stupid attributes. It might take more time, but I’ll have more fun, and it’s much more rewarding than collecting stupid books and spreading skill points across different attributes.

 

[7DaysToDieEnjoyer]

They can always do it as an option to choose learn by doing hybrid with books or learn by reading as we have now.