The game is still in development, it doesn't have a lot of things (like bandits). It would probably be better to wait for version 4.0 exp and then argue.
My solution to save this game
- Thread starter BodyBagger111
- Start date
Wait. Keep this short and merit. What you consider an RPG elements? Why acquiring gas mask for burnt biom is considering removing RPG elements, but acquiring burnt badge is an RPG elemet?
I have feeling (I hope it's me not understanding something) that you missunderstand what RPG and RPG elements are.
BodyBagger111
Refugee
Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but the arguments have already taken place... with literally thousands of players. Have you not seen all the negative reviews on Steam? Did you not witness the town hall? Your solution is to wait for version 4.0? WOW!
plzkthxbye
Refugee
I can't read that other member's mind, but he may be suggesting that these changes could very well be in place by 4.0 (maybe sooner).
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I give you a lot of credit for that, and (from experience) I know that can be a pain in the butt (going back to watch a fairly long, relatively unexciting video (especially when you already know the main points the video will cover) in order to ensure you're speaking from a well-informed place).
I think the first course of action would be to see what changes are made in the 2.x cycle. My understanding is there will at least be a 2.3 (and maybe a 2.4 - 2.2 is on experimental right now). Once we see how many issues that were discussed in the town hall are addressed at that point, we'll be in a much better position to point out things that we feel were overlooked, or still need attention.
I have no objections to multiple 'versions' of the game. The more customizable 7DTD is, the better, I think. When it's more customizable, not only are you able to cater to more individual preferences, but it also facilitates multiple playthroughs a lot better too, I think.
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Roland
Community Moderator
Sandbox Mode
No progression. Biomes can be entered in any order. All recipes craftable from the start-- you just need to obtain the mats. All items lootable from the start. There can be rarity but anything could possibly be found if you are lucky. No perks, experience, or skillpoints just like it used to be pre-A11. No traders-- all items are either findable or craftable. Characters have max HP and stamina from the start.
Story Mode
Progression is abundant. Biomes follow a progression from easiest to most difficult. Recipes must be found in magazines and there is a progression of learning better and better recipes. Better items can only be found in tougher biomes. Characters gain skills, perks, and abilities via armor, chemicals, and modifications. Traders and NPCs exist and have jobs they want done and are willing to hire you and the jobs themselves follow a progression from easy to hard. Factions exist and the player can become more or less friendly with particular NPCs through progressively interacting with them. A story exists that slowly reveals the mystery of the apocalypse in a progressive manner and growing strong enough to be ablt to defeat one of the two boss characters is the endgame climax.
Morloc
Arch Necromancer
Necromancer Mode
You must subjugate the undead and assemble a small army (one of each zombie type) using force of will (and arcane artifacts found in scary places across the land). Once you have your army, you may attack and slay the traders...except maybe Jen who can be made your undead queen which is the endgame climax.
You must subjugate the undead and assemble a small army (one of each zombie type) using force of will (and arcane artifacts found in scary places across the land). Once you have your army, you may attack and slay the traders...except maybe Jen who can be made your undead queen which is the endgame climax.
4sheetzngeegles
Hunter
I have to admit, it kind of sucks, meaning the position that they are in.
The story is not just a want that the developers have, it's actually part
of a financially, binding contractual agreement, made on Kick-starter with the
original backers. Which actually outweighs and has more significance than any
form of popularity resulting from personal reviews from a purchaser after the
fact. The popularity, only affects the potential future endeavors.
The thing that I see as the main problem was introducing it this late in the
development cycle. Mainly because most people have become entrenched in what
they have been given, that's just human nature. It is still possible to have
the call it standard of acceptance play-style, and the linear. In the same game
and not have them conflict. Proven by the inclusion of mods, that can run as
an interweave, in parallel, or in case of some of the overhauls as a separate
entity.
It's just going to take some finesse after, the recent situation.
The thing that i see that may cause further conflict and unrest is that some of the things
included now, and the future may or may not have been set for the story. But people will
quickly feel slighted, if there is an absolute, fence between the the development of the
play-styles. And one sided gets what is perceived as more or newer things than the other side
has. Potentially a catch 22, ergo the need for finesse.
That is because it has to have a dual thought on top of a dual mode, unfortunately consoles
do not share the benefit of being able to mod.
The story is not just a want that the developers have, it's actually part
of a financially, binding contractual agreement, made on Kick-starter with the
original backers. Which actually outweighs and has more significance than any
form of popularity resulting from personal reviews from a purchaser after the
fact. The popularity, only affects the potential future endeavors.
The thing that I see as the main problem was introducing it this late in the
development cycle. Mainly because most people have become entrenched in what
they have been given, that's just human nature. It is still possible to have
the call it standard of acceptance play-style, and the linear. In the same game
and not have them conflict. Proven by the inclusion of mods, that can run as
an interweave, in parallel, or in case of some of the overhauls as a separate
entity.
It's just going to take some finesse after, the recent situation.
The thing that i see that may cause further conflict and unrest is that some of the things
included now, and the future may or may not have been set for the story. But people will
quickly feel slighted, if there is an absolute, fence between the the development of the
play-styles. And one sided gets what is perceived as more or newer things than the other side
has. Potentially a catch 22, ergo the need for finesse.
That is because it has to have a dual thought on top of a dual mode, unfortunately consoles
do not share the benefit of being able to mod.
I hope not. definitely not.
Sandbox doesnt mean "creative" mode. have You played minecraft? There is story and biom progression (yes, nether and ender are bioms) even tho this game is the definition of sandbox.
Sandbox doesnt means there is nothing. Sandbox means - feel free. Making specific item being needed for next biom, and such item hae to be crafted by skilled character only, and in new biom there are better pois - this is progression in sandbox. Nothing is forced, everything feels natural, players wants to go to the next biom, and they do that by their own, not holding a hand of trader through quests.
Progression, development, and other RPG elements does not conflict with sandbox. Just have to be natural, feel natural, not forced. Make incentives, not must to do.
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Story mode can be insert into sandbox. Made special notes in selected pois. First note is found by trader quest, next is found as quest chain through other notes. Those notes are moving you though all bioms in specific order, through very specific pois and traders, revealing the mystery to solve, untill the end, where you meet the boss (the prince i think?).
Charger265
Scavenger
I am so glad you received a much more welcoming experience to this forum. Just a few days prior an almost identical sentiment was portrayed and was instantly ridiculed by moderators and long term forum members.. Happy to see you are getting your say.
In the process of my research i happened to stumble upon your steam review as-well. Was one that i excluded for various reasons.
Overall, I have to agree, and the game is currently at a crossroads. What i am yet to fully understand is the overall influence of the console version impacting the direction and limitations on game mechanics. Im sure a lot of this would have been know to the dev team. But like normal these aspects have been changed without patch notes even to the point of being done on the sneaky side eg/ max Z's spawn down from 64-30 but leaving the 64 option available.
I also suspect that has caused the implementation to Z spawn mechanics in large POI's to make sure console's hit their FPS averages / max memory. But thats just me speculating.
To this point i haven't seen anyone really bring up the subject but if any of the mod's / members have links to threads let me know.
Either way i like and want the game split 2 ways with story mode being a third down the track.
This would also justify additional funds in the form of:
Base game / RPG DLC / Story mode DLC
Broken up in this format i would be more than happy to spend extra on the game.. But trying to pull off a DLC for a skin that was said to be included as part of the update 2.0 update all the way back in 1.0 discussions was a lets just say the icing on the cake.
Great post.. lets hope this information is looked at and meaningful changes are made.
I haven't seen it and I don't want to see it. I want to play and I play. In my country there is a saying: "There is no accounting for taste"(на вкус и цвет товарища нет). And the fact that people may have a different opinion from mine is normal. I have my own head on my shoulders.
I didn't watch it. I don't speak English. If there was a transcript, I would have read it through a translator.
Yeah. I've already seen what happened to the game from A17 to now. It's changed a lot. I've seen other games in early access and seen what they turned into by release (Craftopya as an example). So I expect some more big changes.
InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
To clarify, story mode, though not yet delivered, is part of the base game along with the long-awaited bandits.
Despite the propensity of at least one content creator to call updates to an unfinished game "free DLC", they are nothing of the sort but rather fulfillment of Kickstarter promises regarding elements of a base game that is still unfinished. No one will or should be paying extra for those elements.
The holding back of three armor skin DLCs from previously publicized showcase material for sale in an unfinished game is a questionable move for which no explanation has been offered by TFP.
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Charger265
Scavenger
Yes but we know how good they have been with their promises.
I was looking at this from a viable standpoint. As i think its going to be pretty hard to recover from this point. With the possible road map of obtaining additional funds through worth while DLC's. It would allow them to restructure and bring on quality staff that will assist in game direction. And a good PR team that engages with the community. Taking in feedback and providing feedback.
Been reviewing a lot of the information available. TFP's were off base with their "town hall". (which was not a town hall)
Which is really not good optics.
If i was in this position i would be looking to go back to basics drop the whole RPG style and focus on a solid sandbox. Get the solid platform done and hand it off to the modding community to do what they want with the game. Making sure that with each new feature / direction change it does not require a full rework for the modding community. This will fill the gaps currently missing from the game in anyway the user wants.
From there they can go in any direction they want with RPG / story mode and it will be a choice for the play base. Will it upset a number of people.. YES. Will it win a number back over YES. Personally i think this approach will have a far greater impact to the longevity / profitability of the game.
At that point if people dont like the direction they will have the mods. But again console users will be left out in the cold. But in reality that the corporate requirements for console.
Without sounding entitled the game was born from kick starter. Funded by the players who purchase the game. From what i know there is no corporate funding involved so the game is funded by the players for the players. So to save face, make the game the players want, build back that trust and the DLC's will sell themself. From a personal level i would drop additional fund on DLC's for this content. Not a ■■■■ skin.
The main reason (as i see it) is due to a very short snipit from the "town hall" where by its clear everything is now delayed because you the players dont like it and want change. This is (i think) going to echo for a long time to come. Unfortunately we live in a digital age with content creators that will make sure this point is nailed home for 2 reasons. One they are unhappy about the current state of the game and unnecessary changes. And two its great click bait. TFP's have backed themself into a corner with very few options out. Will the game survive yeah sure it will the modding community are the backbone of that. so why not play into it?
Thats just my twocents
Roland
Community Moderator
Minecraft progression is through exploration and crafting better tools. There are no character stats. This game used to be like that. Your character stats were static for the entire game and you simple were able to craft better and better weapons. At first it was simply finding the mats and then they added schematics to learn the recipes and eventually they incorporated learning recipes with character progression.
Most people who complain about 7 Days to Die losing its soul and returning to its sandbox roots are nostalgic for Alpha 10 which was a lot more like Minecraft than it is to the current version of 7 Days to Die. Alpha 10 was definitely not "creative" mode as you can prove to yourself by trying it out. But there were zero RPG elements in Alpha 10. As soon as they started adding RPG elements and progression systems in Alpha 11 we started seeing conflicts within the community about what kind of game this should be and it has gotten worse over time as more and more progression systems are added. Some of the conflict is over the implementation but a lot of it is due to the gating and forced linear path that a progression system (by its nature) always adds to a game.
So it sounds like you like at least a bit of progression and your tolerance level for being denied certain abilities until you play the game for awhile is less than what we have today but more than what we had in Alpha 10. That's fine, but sandbox means freedom to play any way we wish. Right now we can't enter any biome on Day 1 if we wish. We have to progress to the point where we can and people want that progression removed. Right now we can't mine effectively on Day 1 if we wish. We have to progress to the point where we can and people want that progression removed so they can be an effective miner from the beginning. Right now we can't build effectively on Day 1 if we wish. We have to progress to the point where we can and people want that progression removed so they can be an effective builder from the beginning.
Because you have some tolerance for progression, the amount you like feels natural and organic within the open world. But to others with less tolerance or patience or contentment to do what is necessary to progress, what you see as natural and organic they see as forced and restrictive.
My tolerance for progression is much higher than yours. For me, having to progress or prepare to the point where I could enter any biome felt natural within the sandbox world. The world has never stopped feeling sandbox-like to me. It just seems organic to me to need to progress to the point where I can overcome environmental hazards and obstacles.
So the best course of action would be to remove all progression elements for the sandbox mode and basically do a remaster of Alpha 10 so that even the most progression-intolerant player can play sandbox mode and have fun.
Also, the nether and the end are different worlds or dimensions. This game doesn't have anything like that. When we talk about biomes we are talking about regions in the main world. Minecraft has zero progression needed for entering biomes. 7 Days to Die doesn't even use different dimensional worlds that are entered via a portal.
Adam the Waster
Hunter
Tbf the game doesn't need to be saved but the Pimps just went the wrong direction. Hopefully they see and listen and add/readd stuff again
InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
No one knows what kind of position TFP are in financially. Estimates put 7DTD sales in a very profitable range. What they have budgeted for completing it is anyone's guess, but they can't just walk away from their Kickstarter promises. Those initial backers financially funded the development of a sandbox with RPG elements. All others merely bought the game knowing it was in early access and hopefully knowing what that means and what they were getting into. (The Kickstarter goals and progress are accessible for public review, btw.)
The primary uproar is over the 2.0 update. Was there a split in the community beforehand? Yep. That doesn't mean either TFP or the game are on their last legs. It's just means the 2.0 update didn't receive an overwhelmingly positive reception. Some have said the "backlash" has been building for quite some time before that. It would seem it has, but I would think TFP's primary focus would be on making the updates covered in their "Town Hall" that arguably wasn't and completing the game. Anything tangential to that, such as the awsome conversations going on about possible hybrid systems to complexify as opposed to complicate the game and make it more engaging and appealing, is just that: tangential.
Believe me, I get the impatience of people who've been waiting for over a decade for the game to be finished, but excess pressure and rushed deadlines are arguably the reason 2.0 was lackluster to begin with. No one can say, "Hey, wrap it up already because I say so." It's their game; their schedule is their own; and, if possible, I think they need to take their time with it regardless what anyone says else the 3.0 and 4.0 many have said they're not looking forward to already likely will be even more poorly received. What's the point of putting even more pressure on them? To encourage them to come up with systems just as superficial as biome and storm effects/offsets?
As for "ongoing revenue," this is not a MMO regardless how many choose to treat it as such and the "DLC" controversy already has taken place on another thread.
HammerDano
Survivor
Alpha 11? It seems a lot of people missed that part of the post. I have not seen or heard ANYONE asking for Alpha 11. why Alpha 11? malicious compliance?
I may be wrong but, it seems a lot of people are asking for Alpha 16 with the new POI's and Graphics.
Adam the Waster
Hunter
And weapons, vehicles, etc
Charger265
Scavenger
Im not sure where you got this idea from. Thats not what i said.
IMO.. It runs a lot deeper than that.
This is exactly why i mentioned some restructure and hired professionals. Remember they have decided their own deadlines.
I didnt say that either.
Expressing dissatisfaction can feel like pressure to some, but when done thoughtfully and constructively, it can also foster understanding and drive positive change.
However first one must listen... Unfortunately thats what i felt from the "town hall". After reviewing it a few times the more i looked the more i saw damage control. Not listening or understanding of what brought this to a head. I do see a lot of strong defense but it really does give the vibe of blind loyalty in some cases.
However that just my opinion. Look at the end of the day we all want something good to come from it. People will only follow for so long on hopes and dreams.
InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
Same here. Else, biome effects/offsets might be getting more than a facelift. Strikes me as applying a bandaid to a gaping wound. At the same time, Joel asked his water collection question on Reddit, so I get the impression he knows precisely what brought it to a head because he apparently shares some of the same concerns and desires for the game. Can't get more empathetic than that.
Pardon me if I misinterpreted that as suggesting they walk away from their Kickstarter and RPG element promises.
I've expressed the same in the past. As it's their first game, it would have been ideal had they just produced 7 Days, the sandbox, on a more reasonable scope and scale than they've obviously tried to pursue. But, of course, hindsight is 20/20. Nothing to be done about it now. They can only move forward, hopefully tying up some loose ends along the way as well as considering those awesome conversations down the line.
BTW, I responded to your post specifically. Not all of it is specifically addressed to you or what you've said, however, but the situtaion itself as is the vast majority of your post.
MaxTunnerX
Refugee
Its relevant to a lot of topics nowadays, so Im going to go ahead and say it once more here. This game needs FREEDOM OF CHOICE. If someone wants hardcore survival, let them have it. If someone wants more of a sandbox expeirence, let them have it. There is absolutely no reason to only go one way or the other.