My solution to save this game

[InfiniteWarrior]

Its relevant to a lot of topics nowadays, so Im going to go ahead and say it once more here. This game needs FREEDOM OF CHOICE. If someone wants hardcore survival, let them have it. If someone wants more of a sandbox expeirence, let them have it. There is absolutely no reason to only go one way or the other.

I've said the same. It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both/and. The ideal scenario, however, would have required planning for different modes available from the main menu from the beginning. Now that TFP are in the home stretch, it would seem the only two options possible are Story Mode and truly randomized RWG by whatever name the menu button is called, which is definitely doable in its current state. Only they would know if anything further is possible. Should they decide to put in those hybrid systems under consideration later, a further "hardcore mode" might be added that flips survival elements on and off ala Green Hell or Subnautica. It would take some serious study and review of interconnecting systems as they are, though.

 

[Roland]

Alpha 11? It seems a lot of people missed that part of the post. I have not seen or heard ANYONE asking for Alpha 11. why Alpha 11? malicious compliance?
I may be wrong but, it seems a lot of people are asking for Alpha 16 with the new POI's and Graphics.

I didn’t say Alpha 11. I said pre-A11. Alpha 10 was the last version without RPG elements.

People who pine for A16 want RPG elements but they want them implemented differently. There were plenty of constraints due to progression systems in A16. If people are wanting to go back to the pure and pristine sandbox survival gameplay then they have to go to Alpha 10.

I am in no way saying that this is what TFP will do. I am just speculating.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

I've said the same. It doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both/and. The ideal scenario, however, would have required planning for different modes available from the main menu from the beginning. Now that TFP are in the home stretch, it would seem the only two options possible are Story Mode and truly randomized RWG by whatever name the menu button is called, which is definitely doable in its current state. Only they would know if anything further is possible. Should they decide to put in those hybrid systems under consideration later, a further "hardcore mode" might be added that flips survival elements on and off ala Green Hell or Subnautica. It would take some serious study and review of interconnecting systems as they are, though.

It doesnt have to be that big either. You can easily turn survival into sandbox by just a few world setting options, some of which exist and some of which yet dont. Im happy they announced the sandbox gamemode, but Im pretty sure its not even going to be sandbox. Its just going to be hardcore tower defense survival but without the story.

 

[zztong]

While I think having two distinct modes (Sandbox and Story) is viable, to me they both seem more like a set of defaults for a large bunch of options. Story might need to lock some of the options to either on or off, but Sandbox would be full control.

 

[HammerDano]

I didn’t say Alpha 11. I said pre-A11. Alpha 10 was the last version without RPG elements.

People who pine for A16 want RPG elements but they want them implemented differently. There were plenty of constraints due to progression systems in A16. If people are wanting to go back to the pure and pristine sandbox survival gameplay then they have to go to Alpha 10.

I am in no way saying that this is what TFP will do. I am just speculating.

that is not the way you presented that

 

[Adam the Waster]

All recipes craftable from the start

God no maybe as a setting but not default

Everything else is pretty good

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

It doesnt have to be that big either. You can easily turn survival into sandbox by just a few world setting options, some of which exist and some of which yet dont. Im happy they announced the sandbox gamemode, but Im pretty sure its not even going to be sandbox. Its just going to be hardcore tower defense survival but without the story.

There's not much to the official gameplay loop. No question about that. I imagine it hasn't been expanded on due to the media emphasis on megabase building and that tug of war between TFP and gamers of the game's systems and AI.

The game can still be played in ways other than those in which min-maxers and megabase builders play it, however, a process that no doubt will be simplified if TFP introduce those toggles to turn traders on and off, etc. and with the linearization confined to story mode.

 

[Charger265]

Joel asked his water collection question on Reddit, so I get the impression he knows precisely what brought it to a head because he apparently shares some of the same concerns and desires for the game. Can't get more empathetic than that.

I would have to disagree. The reddit question was related specifically to jars. This is not the core issue. It happened to be the issues that gained the hype. To me this shows the team are reacting to "Hyper-sensationalized" content. Not understanding the key issues that need to be addressed.
This is also confirmed in the live stream where it was called a "Town Hall" but at no point were the public allowed to address their questions and have answers provided. At best it can be described as "informational session" or "one-way town hall" The issues that were addressed are superficial. Example badge change to PPE or we will give you that option to turn it off but the one that stands out to me is LBD aka action skills was touched on for around 3 seconds before an abrupt subject matter change. That was a deliberate avoidance tactic pushing key issues under the rug.

When it comes to the defense of TFP particularly here on this forum the argument of nostalgia is used quite often and is designed to redirect the blame. Creating an illusion of no fault or wrong doing. This is the exact same sentiment and culture TFP's have exhibited and is largely what has led to the situation we are in now which can be described as "self-reinforcing mythos" These same arguments are normally pointed to the most experienced player base with years of generational changes and thousands of hours that have any opposing view to misdirect. In any other logical situation if you required an honest review or understanding of something you would specifically look to this group as the quality of feedback in general will be much more detailed and highlight the key areas of what worked and what didnt. If specifically looking to this forum i would say a alot of members fall into that category however the long term active members have fallen into the same "self-reinforcing mythos" where by blame is redirected and labeled a minority. "Its the players fault for not liking the game"

There are a lot like yourself (& I) where not all the details are agreed on but we still have that sense that it feels like TFP's are only applying a bandaid. With no clear understanding from TFP's to address these issues the flame war will continue. Defending them blindly without applying some sort of pressure will not resolve anything. With a good PR strategist and ongoing open communication a lot of the issues we see here and in social media can be controlled and sentiment turned around.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I would have to disagree. The reddit question was related specifically to jars. This is not the core issue. It happened to be the issues that gained the hype. To me this shows the team are reacting to "Hyper-sensationalized" content. Not understanding the key issues that need to be addressed.

I got the impression Joel was sincere in his attempt to understand that particular issue and even brainstorming how to make it work with the current system.

I do agree they were reacting to the hypersensationalized in the stream as well as the review bombing in a way that's not going to resolve anything. I'm not sure how they could come to understand it, though, when the vast majority of community members themselves are more or less insisting the game be designed to their exact specifications and/or can't put into words the actual allure of systems they remember fondly.

 

[Charger265]

I got the impression Joel was sincere in his attempt to understand

I'm not sure how they could come to understand it, though, when the vast majority of community members themselves are more or less insisting the game be designed to their exact specifications and/or can't put into words the actual allure of systems they remember fondly.

I really hope thats the case. There were just a few things he said that put me off.

Yes i agree there are some players saying it has to be to their exact liking. Which is unrealistic and can be classed as entitled. I dont get that overall feel in fact i thinks its only a select few who carry that sentiment but they are being focused on as its an easy target.. Yes some have been specific in the thing they dislike and like. (which is the best feedback as its focused) but really i feel most are open to ideas and looking to actively find a compromise. Yes they have generally been the loudest, Thats more driven from years of not being heard and very much a "Now, I dont want to say i told you so. But..." moment
This is where the PR team can shine as they generally have the tools to identify the key issues getting past the hype and providing unbiased feedback to the dev team.

What i am noticing is like the OP they have taken the time to see that there is an issue. Have acknowledged it and are actively looking for solutions to resole it. Which is a far contrast from "its their game we see nothing wrong with it stop whinging" or " you do know because you want change the updates will be delayed" (BTW in not implying you are in this category only saying it as some have taken general statements as a personal attack)

 

[Archael]

Minecraft progression is through exploration and crafting better tools. There are no character stats. This game used to be like that. Your character stats were static for the entire game and you simple were able to craft better and better weapons. At first it was simply finding the mats and then they added schematics to learn the recipes and eventually they incorporated learning recipes with character progression.

Most people who complain about 7 Days to Die losing its soul and returning to its sandbox roots are nostalgic for Alpha 10 which was a lot more like Minecraft than it is to the current version of 7 Days to Die. Alpha 10 was definitely not "creative" mode as you can prove to yourself by trying it out. But there were zero RPG elements in Alpha 10. As soon as they started adding RPG elements and progression systems in Alpha 11 we started seeing conflicts within the community about what kind of game this should be and it has gotten worse over time as more and more progression systems are added. Some of the conflict is over the implementation but a lot of it is due to the gating and forced linear path that a progression system (by its nature) always adds to a game.

So it sounds like you like at least a bit of progression and your tolerance level for being denied certain abilities until you play the game for awhile is less than what we have today but more than what we had in Alpha 10. That's fine, but sandbox means freedom to play any way we wish. Right now we can't enter any biome on Day 1 if we wish. We have to progress to the point where we can and people want that progression removed. Right now we can't mine effectively on Day 1 if we wish. We have to progress to the point where we can and people want that progression removed so they can be an effective miner from the beginning. Right now we can't build effectively on Day 1 if we wish. We have to progress to the point where we can and people want that progression removed so they can be an effective builder from the beginning.

Because you have some tolerance for progression, the amount you like feels natural and organic within the open world. But to others with less tolerance or patience or contentment to do what is necessary to progress, what you see as natural and organic they see as forced and restrictive.

My tolerance for progression is much higher than yours. For me, having to progress or prepare to the point where I could enter any biome felt natural within the sandbox world. The world has never stopped feeling sandbox-like to me. It just seems organic to me to need to progress to the point where I can overcome environmental hazards and obstacles.

So the best course of action would be to remove all progression elements for the sandbox mode and basically do a remaster of Alpha 10 so that even the most progression-intolerant player can play sandbox mode and have fun.

Also, the nether and the end are different worlds or dimensions. This game doesn't have anything like that. When we talk about biomes we are talking about regions in the main world. Minecraft has zero progression needed for entering biomes. 7 Days to Die doesn't even use different dimensional worlds that are entered via a portal.

Yeah. Maybe. But what You are describing here as sandbox, feels more like creative. Even in Minecraft You can't build everything, as You said, there is progression through some means. Character becomes better via better resources and tools, and progress to new bioms. Even if we would add skills and skillpoints to Minecraft, it's survival mode would not stop being sandbox - progression is there and will be, but in different way.
Being able to do everything from day 1 is creative sandbox, not survival sandbox.

 

[Suxar]

All recipes craftable from the start

In the current version, you can create them from the very beginning in a single game. Turn on the creative menu and go ahead. That's what I do when I play the experimental version.

 

[Morloc]

I like skill progression. I like the perks. If some are over/under-powered, then let's talk about it, but don't blow it up.

I think the Storms is...interesting, and I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I feel like more could be done with the framework created for Storms. Sure, I've have had some exciting "oh crap" moments when a storm shows up at exactly the wrong time, but once I'm safe in that trailer truck I was grateful to find, after I repair my gear and reorganize my inventory, and spend my skill point I had banked...about 45 seconds have passed, and I'll be pacing up and down that 40 footer for a lot longer than feels fun.

I think it'd be more interesting if I could have been prepared and had equipment or {potions} to protect me from the storm, at least enough that I could get to a real POI to investigate or strip. Right now your vehicle becomes a liability so the radius you can move on foot while being pummeled is questionable...so I wait in the trailer wishing I could make some stone axes or something to pass the time.

Wouldn't it be fun to be hunting a particular zombie (or other "thing") that only shows up during storms in a certain biome and has the potential to drop some unique Legendary++ loot that you cannot get anywhere else. We need a TON...no, a T-O-N of items like Taza's Stone Axe in the game to incentivize players. Super-rare and powerful items.

 

[meganoth]

Yeah. Maybe. But what You are describing here as sandbox, feels more like creative. Even in Minecraft You can't build everything, as You said, there is progression through some means. Character becomes better via better resources and tools, and progress to new bioms. Even if we would add skills and skillpoints to Minecraft, it's survival mode would not stop being sandbox - progression is there and will be, but in different way.
Being able to do everything from day 1 is creative sandbox, not survival sandbox.

Creative mode **is** the ultimate sandbox, comparable to "Garry's Mod". Minecraft or A10 7D2D is already mixed with some RPG elements because the progression is via better tools and weapons. Though they are still sandbox games, no question about that. At least according to the wikipedia definition of the term, which actually seems quite sensible and well worded.

Even less sandbox are the alphas after A10. And still most people regard them as sandbox while each alpha some sandbox elements were replaced or made smaller with added RPG, survival or shooter elements.

So the big question is where in 7D2D history should TFP exactly place that "sandbox mode"? There is not an easy answer here. They could go for the popular A16, but then calling it sandbox mode? That would be a misnomer in my view. LBD itself is not more sandbox than perks, just an alternative RPG method of personal progression, and IMHO A16 is in the middle or closer to 1.0 than to A10 in its "sandboxness".

Anyone remember in what alpha it started that quests were given out by the trader?

 

[plzkthxbye]

Wouldn't it be fun to be hunting a particular zombie (or other "thing") that only shows up during storms in a certain biome and has the potential to drop some unique Legendary++ loot that you cannot get anywhere else.

I love this idea, or at least some sort of incentive to 'brave the storm' for some sort of risk/reward benefit. I have a feeling the realism-focused, or sandbox-nostalgic players might not like it though (but screw them! )

 

[HammerDano]

Anyone remember in what alpha it started that quests were given out by the trader?

It was after A16

why not just put out a poll? actually solicit player opinion? you know...that thing they said they were going to do

The majority of responses seem to be for A16 era.
people seem to be trying to tell you they don't want the wheel reinvented.

 

[meganoth]

It was after A16

why not just put out a poll? actually solicit player opinion? you know...that thing they said they were going to do

Sure. But if they should land on A16 for example I would prefer if the called it something like A16 mode, not sandbox mode. If they should land on A10 or anything around there I would see a lot more justification to call it sandbox mode. But in the end, just a silly label

The majority of responses seem to be for A16 era.

I even said in my post that a16 is the "popular" option. It doesn't mean there won't be many sold on previous versions who will be unhappy, especially if they might get unjustified hopes by it being calling sandbox mode.

people seem to be trying to tell you they don't want the wheel reinvented.

Not me. I am not part of TFP. And A10 for example is not a reinvention just like A16 isn't.

 

[Archael]

What I want personally from the game is immersion.
It's post apocalypse. We should struggle to survive, while grasping anything that can help us.
Neither story, nor progression makes game not-sandbox. It's forced, linear path to do what makes game less sandbox.
It started with traders. Quests via notes was not forced, was immersive and had much better storytelling potential than traders will ever have.
Learn by doing was not perfect, needed changes, maybe lot, but had one major advantage over magazines - was not forcing players into one specific playstyle.
And this is problem - being forced to do something instead of giving incentives.
And no. To create story, and want players to progress bioms while discovering this story doesn't means it have to be forced. It can be natural, free, in sandbox game, with RPG elements.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

It's forced, linear path to do what makes game less sandbox.

From what I gathered from the stream, the forced linear path was going bye-bye but for story mode, hopefully including the "no large cities in the Forest" non sequitor now that it's been mentioned. Further, it makes no sense to go backward. Ergo, I very much doubt they'll even consider doing that, i.e. back to A10 or back to A16 even as a touchstone. Personally, I don't think it necessary at all to go backward. The hybrid systems -- organic water collection alongside dew collectors and LBD for skills and magazines/books for crafting, etc. -- they might consider implementing once 2.0 and 3.0 is complete is a different story. All else can be handled with mods except, of course, on console. The community can be reasonable about it or not and it's mostly been not from where I sit.

 

[Vaeliorin]

"RPG"