PC Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[Riamus]

I originally liked the magazines, but now they are just cumbersome.  I liked being able to craft tools without having to ask someone to do it.  Weapon crafting costs make crafting then not really worth it most of the time past tier 1, imo.  And finding magazines to craft higher stuff takes too long in many games just due to RNG.  I don't agree at all with the perks increasing magazine chance by so much as it just makes it that much harder to get others.

I miss having a mix of specialization and crafting what you want.  We used to specialize in the bigger things like vehicles and engineering stuff but make our own tools and stuff.  Now, that isn't really an option.  You either specialize in everything or you take far longer to progress.

And then there is the issue in single player with the perks increasing the chance to get specific magazines.  In single player, you often aren't really specializing because you need to do everything yourself.  And with the magazines, if you don't put a point into grease monkey early even though you don't really need that perk right away, you will quickly fall behind on vehicle crafting and take longer to be able to craft vehicles.  Most of your magazines are likely to come from bookshelves, mailboxes and news stands.  Not perking into vehicles means you will get far fewer vehicles magazines from those.  If you don't go out of your way to try and find pass n gas crates or other crates that have a higher chance of vehicle magazines, you will be behind by not perking into something that you normally wouldn't perk into in the first week or two.

In the end, the magazines, especially with the perk increasing chances, are just a slog.  It goes beyond grinding because they feel almost like a waste of time to grind instead of at least feeling useful and making the grind acceptable.

I would rather see no increase at all in magazine chances from perks if they don't want people thinking they aren't working because the chance is low than to have the chance be extremely high like it is now.

I also really miss the random chance of finding schematics early.

 

[FramFramson]

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

 

[BFT2020]

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

Not everyone feels that way, I tend to invest very little in Int (I don't use the elixirs at all) unless I am specifically wanting to play a heavy Int build.  I may invest a perk point or two at the beginning but I am usually at Int 1 for most of the early / mid game.  I tend to focus more on the tree I am wanting to play that playthrough.

If you want a challenge, don't use elixirs and don't spend in strength / int trees if you are going a different build, like Agility.

 

[Roland]

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

I never invest much into intellect if I’m not doing an intellect playthrough. I don’t mind getting my vehicles and work stations as rewards or buying them rather than crafting them.  There’s definitely no “have to invest” requirement for intellect. There is still plenty to craft in the game if ignore intellect and spend your points elsewhere. 

 

[meganoth]

I think the biggest warping effect is everyone in single player having to invest somewhat heavily (during the early game) into Int, even if you're not going Int at all. Like, your real build is always a ???/Int hybrid build in singleplayer. That or you're buying a lot of fergettin' elixir.

Though even in Multiplayer, the Int person will still often be a hybrid as well, because not everyone wants to go junk turrets and stun batons.

There is always the trader as an alternative to crafting the stuff yourself (especially for workstations and vehicles). And if you don't spread your points too much a single point into say vehicles may even be enough to get you vehicles in acceptable time (this would have to be tested though). Which I would not call hybrid.

Not everyone feels that way, I tend to invest very little in Int (I don't use the elixirs at all) unless I am specifically wanting to play a heavy Int build.  I may invest a perk point or two at the beginning but I am usually at Int 1 for most of the early / mid game.  I tend to focus more on the tree I am wanting to play that playthrough.

If you want a challenge, don't use elixirs and don't spend in strength / int trees if you are going a different build, like Agility.

Using your mod or vanillla?

Not getting a vehicle or waiting a long time for it is less about challenge and more about missing comfort.

 

[Riamus]

Not getting a vehicle or waiting a long time for it is less about challenge and more about missing comfort.

Although true, I personally don't enjoy spending lots of time running around or driving slowly around between places.  Especially now with the changes to vehicle damage because unless I want to constantly repair my vehicle, I can't have fun running down zombies and taking crazy paths through the air and over stuff like I used to.  The little bit of fun I used to have driving is gone now so it's just wasted time where I don't feel like I'm playing the game.  Fast travel will help a little but that will just get you between towns.  You'll still have a lot of running or driving to do.  For me, I almost am at the point where I want to just give myself a motorcycle with supercharger on day 1 just to avoid it.  The game already slowed down a lot in A21.  I am not one who really enjoys early game, so the changes just make the game less enjoyable for me and I feel like if I just give myself everything to get a fast start, then the game isn't worth playing.  I'm kind of at the edge right now where I want to play and don't want to play.  I'm hoping there are not any more changes that push me towards not wanting to play.

 

[Adam the Waster]

I think the system is good! For single player 

With more people.  You have to ether just let the host read all of them.  Or fight over them. I can't imagine what servers are like.  People would still be stuck in the store age. Cuz you need alot in order to reach teir 5 

*alpha 22 dev diary and overlord armor *

 

[BFT2020]

Using your mod or vanillla?

Not getting a vehicle or waiting a long time for it is less about challenge and more about missing comfort.

Both.  I find that as long as I reach a bicycle, I am fine if it takes me awhile to get motorized transportation.  And since bicycle only takes 5 magazines to unlock, it doesn't take a long time for me to gather those magazines, even in my mod where I removed trader rewards.

 

[FramFramson]

Both.  I find that as long as I reach a bicycle, I am fine if it takes me awhile to get motorized transportation.  And since bicycle only takes 5 magazines to unlock, it doesn't take a long time for me to gather those magazines, even in my mod where I removed trader rewards.

You don't even need to build one in most cases. The T1 trader quest series pretty much always guarantees one now.

As for leaving off Int, I agree that's a perfectly viable strat and I myself have bought vehicles before crafting them many times, but there are a few significant Int-based QoL upgrades which are hard to live without like,

- Crafting stations/Crucible if the Traders won't cough one up

- Reducing vehicle repair costs

- Reducing forge costs

That last one is especially tricky because investing in Engineering has the known problem where it LOWERS your chance of getting Forge Ahead books as opposed to just taking Lockpicking.

You can play without those, but crafting stations and forge costs can be pretty huge.

Man, I just had a thought... you know what might address the biggest issue there? A small chance (1 in 20? 1 in 50?) to find workstation schematics in broken versions of said workstation. So a broken Chemistry Station would have a chance of giving you a Chemistry Station Schematic.

I feel like that makes way more sense than every cement mixer having a Forge Ahead magazine.

 

[Roland]

Although true, I personally don't enjoy spending lots of time running around or driving slowly around between places.  Especially now with the changes to vehicle damage because unless I want to constantly repair my vehicle, I can't have fun running down zombies and taking crazy paths through the air and over stuff like I used to.  The little bit of fun I used to have driving is gone now so it's just wasted time where I don't feel like I'm playing the game.  Fast travel will help a little but that will just get you between towns.  You'll still have a lot of running or driving to do.  For me, I almost am at the point where I want to just give myself a motorcycle with supercharger on day 1 just to avoid it.  The game already slowed down a lot in A21.  I am not one who really enjoys early game, so the changes just make the game less enjoyable for me and I feel like if I just give myself everything to get a fast start, then the game isn't worth playing.  I'm kind of at the edge right now where I want to play and don't want to play.  I'm hoping there are not any more changes that push me towards not wanting to play.

I find this a bit over dramatic, sorry. The cost to make 20 or so repair kits is negligible. There is no reason you can't have that "little bit of fun you used to have". It just isn't endlessly free to do now but the actual cost to do it is also super low. In addition the visual and effective reward for running over zombies is way better now than it was which adds to the fun.

I get the disappointment of having to pay for something that used to be free but let's be honest here, you can plow through a crowd of zombies spraying gore and gaining xp and the only cost is a few repair kits to get back up to 100% on your vehicle health.

 

[Javabean867]

You know what would fix this real easy???  A mod that turns all found crafting mags into 'crafting notes'.  Then with the right perks allows you to turn those crafting notes into the crafting mags that you want to level up.   Or the perk level would limit how far up the crafting tree you can go with reading your crafting mags. 

 

[Riamus]

I find this a bit over dramatic, sorry. The cost to make 20 or so repair kits is negligible. There is no reason you can't have that "little bit of fun you used to have". It just isn't endlessly free to do now but the actual cost to do it is also super low. In addition the visual and effective reward for running over zombies is way better now than it was which adds to the fun.

I get the disappointment of having to pay for something that used to be free but let's be honest here, you can plow through a crowd of zombies spraying gore and gaining xp and the only cost is a few repair kits to get back up to 100% on your vehicle health.

Two points.  It is less about cost and more about how often you need to do it if you want to just drive crazy.  Driving isn't exactly a fun thing to do if you are driving from point A to point B.  And neither is stopping every five or ten minutes for repairs if you want to drive crazy and have fun running into stuff.  If the time between repairs was higher but the cost was scaled to match, it wouldn't be an issue for me.  Make it cost 20x what it does now but make it take 20x the time to degrade and I'd be fine with it.  You may think this opinion is dramatic but it is still my opinion and I'm not the only one who does not like the change.

Second, whether or not the new changes to graphics when running over zombies is an improvement is subjective.  I personally think the blood mist looks fake.  And I much preferred seeing zombies ragdoll through the air and even end up laying across the hood of my 4x4 for a while as I was driving along or bears rolling over the top of me rather than just dropping to the ground in a red mist.  So I think the enjoyment of running them down decreased significantly in A21 even ignoring damage changes.

 

[Roland]

You may think this opinion is dramatic but it is still my opinion and I'm not the only one who does not like the change.

It's not your opinion that the change sucks that is dramatic. It was your wording that came across a bit over the top. Of course it's still your opinion even if I think you were laying it on a bit thick and sure there are others besides you that don't like the change. I'd be perfectly happy if they make it take longer for your vehicle to degrade but personally I don't think it degrades that quickly anyway from my own experience. Perhaps you and others who are describing the frequency of which you have to make repairs are understating what you actually mean by "crazy driving". 

<shrug>

As far as ragdolling vs red mist I like both. I'd like to see both for variety. 

You know what would fix this real easy???  A mod that turns all found crafting mags into 'crafting notes'.  Then with the right perks allows you to turn those crafting notes into the crafting mags that you want to level up.   Or the perk level would limit how far up the crafting tree you can go with reading your crafting mags. 

I wouldn't mind an additional "crafting notes" item being added to the current system but I wouldn't want what you described as a replacement. Your crafting notes are just way too abstract and generic. I like that a kitchen recipe book specifically teaches cooking recipes and a trade magazine on archery reveals recipes for crafting bows etc. One "crafting notes" to rule all the variety of crafting recipes would be too simplistic for me.

Even our generic skillpoints CAN be traced back to doing specific activities that can explain why you can spend points in a particular skill and get better at it. Sure, it is also abstract but there is at least a bit of a connection there and depending on how you play, the connection can feel quite strong and causal.

So if every once in awhile these crafting notes could drop and you could craft them into a magazine of your choosing that would be fine by me but only as a support to the current system and not as an overhaul of it.

 

[meganoth]

Two points.  It is less about cost and more about how often you need to do it if you want to just drive crazy.  Driving isn't exactly a fun thing to do if you are driving from point A to point B.  And neither is stopping every five or ten minutes for repairs if you want to drive crazy and have fun running into stuff.  If the time between repairs was higher but the cost was scaled to match, it wouldn't be an issue for me.  Make it cost 20x what it does now but make it take 20x the time to degrade and I'd be fine with it.  You may think this opinion is dramatic but it is still my opinion and I'm not the only one who does not like the change.

Second, whether or not the new changes to graphics when running over zombies is an improvement is subjective.  I personally think the blood mist looks fake.  And I much preferred seeing zombies ragdoll through the air and even end up laying across the hood of my 4x4 for a while as I was driving along or bears rolling over the top of me rather than just dropping to the ground in a red mist.  So I think the enjoyment of running them down decreased significantly in A21 even ignoring damage changes.

Fully agree with point two.

 

[Riamus]

It's not your opinion that the change sucks that is dramatic. It was your wording that came across a bit over the top. Of course it's still your opinion even if I think you were laying it on a bit thick and sure there are others besides you that don't like the change. I'd be perfectly happy if they make it take longer for your vehicle to degrade but personally I don't think it degrades that quickly anyway from my own experience. Perhaps you and others who are describing the frequency of which you have to make repairs are understating what you actually mean by "crazy driving". 

<shrug>

As far as ragdolling vs red mist I like both. I'd like to see both for variety. 

Well, let's just look at some specifics then.  Driving over a curb that is almost flat with the ground can cause 1% or more damage even on a minibike without supercharger or even a bicycle.  That alone is crazy even though it is a small amount.  Damage without a supercharger takes up to at least 20%.  With a supercharger, a single hit can be even higher.  This means that even if you are driving normally but at fill speed (with shift) and a supercharger, if something like an ore node comes out of nowhere because there is a delay in loading for some reason, you can take more than a quarter of your vehicle durability.  I've had minor changes in terrain cause me to take damage even when you can't really see that there even is a difference unless you are standing still.  If you drive under a tree, which is often required if offroading through a town, it is common to find a rock or other item hidden under it or just past it.  And these aren't even considering doing any crazy driving unless you count driving fast or driving offroad to be crazy.  If I want to run through something, I'll take significant damage from just one hit.  If you do this 4 times, you are probably at 0% durability without repairs.  That means regular repairs if you don't want to drive slowly everywhere.  Can you avoid it and drive as carefully as in real life?  Of course.  But I don't play a zombie game for realism.

I would be very interested in seeing the numbers of people who used 4x4s in A20 compared to in A21.  I would be very surprised if the number hasn't decreased significantly (probably by at least half) due to the amount of repairs it needs because of its width and the increased damage.  And this doesn't even get into the fact that damage is a percent of max durability rather than a set damage based on speed.  So a 4x4 with the extra durability takes much more actual damage for the exact same hit and speed as any other vehicle.  And repair kits aren't percent based so you have to do more repairs for a vehicle with greater durability than for one with less for the same amount of hits at the same speed.  That alone just doesn't make sense.

We are rather off topic now, so probably should get back to the magazines. 

 

[Novamourne]

Just finished up a playthrough with a friend and to be honest, it's so anti-multiplayer that I just could not enjoy the system at all. At first, it showed a lot of promise. I didn't mind the idea because I agree 100% with the goal stated by development and the reason for doing so. Still, I think this systems side effects are too detrimental, and I hope this is iterated on. 

We spent a lot of time trying to figure out who should loot which containers. It didn't make a lot of sense since they were spec'd into looting but I was asking to have priority on boxes I needed books from. It really felt like it ran against the grain there. In the end, the obvious answer is to split up and play separately but it's not a very fun one so I just told them to loot and pass books to me that they didn't need. This, of course, meant I didn't get any benefit from the systems priority drop mechanism but at least we got to play together and one of us was able to cap out.

At the end of a 40 hour playthrough, I had exactly 0 items I crafted for myself and at no point past making iron tools did we ever again use a crafted item. Between the super lucrative quest rewards, insanely well stocked traders, and gamestage-based loot quality we were in steel tier purples before the day 21 horde. Items with quality may as well be removed from crafting altogether. 

I hope this system is iterated on or changed again because I don't think I'll be playing unmodded 7days while it exists. You can tell me all the ways I'm wrong but it won't change the fact that it just wasn't fun for me. Other than that, A21 was a blast and I enjoyed pretty much everything. Really loved the new POIs and the facelifts on the older ones. You can tell whoever is working on these really love their job and I appreciate the heck out of them for that.

 

[meganoth]

Well, let's just look at some specifics then.  Driving over a curb that is almost flat with the ground can cause 1% or more damage even on a minibike without supercharger or even a bicycle.  That alone is crazy even though it is a small amount.  Damage without a supercharger takes up to at least 20%.  With a supercharger, a single hit can be even higher.  This means that even if you are driving normally but at fill speed (with shift) and a supercharger, if something like an ore node comes out of nowhere because there is a delay in loading for some reason, you can take more than a quarter of your vehicle durability.  I've had minor changes in terrain cause me to take damage even when you can't really see that there even is a difference unless you are standing still.  If you drive under a tree, which is often required if offroading through a town, it is common to find a rock or other item hidden under it or just past it.  And these aren't even considering doing any crazy driving unless you count driving fast or driving offroad to be crazy.  If I want to run through something, I'll take significant damage from just one hit.  If you do this 4 times, you are probably at 0% durability without repairs.  That means regular repairs if you don't want to drive slowly everywhere.  Can you avoid it and drive as carefully as in real life?  Of course.  But I don't play a zombie game for realism.

I would be very interested in seeing the numbers of people who used 4x4s in A20 compared to in A21.  I would be very surprised if the number hasn't decreased significantly (probably by at least half) due to the amount of repairs it needs because of its width and the increased damage.  And this doesn't even get into the fact that damage is a percent of max durability rather than a set damage based on speed.  So a 4x4 with the extra durability takes much more actual damage for the exact same hit and speed as any other vehicle.  And repair kits aren't percent based so you have to do more repairs for a vehicle with greater durability than for one with less for the same amount of hits at the same speed.  That alone just doesn't make sense.

We are rather off topic now, so probably should get back to the magazines. 

Too bad its offtopic since you hit a very good point. That the 4x4 takes more repair kits because it has more durability is a real killer feature in the negative sense that should be corrected. This isn't just an opinion or matter of taste, this is objectively wrong.

I probably would disagree with your other points about the damage being generally too high. Remember how driving the gyrocopter is a mini-game where you can easily crash. Well, driving vehicles offroad is now similar a mini game and something you can't just do while reading in a forum on the side. Drive careless and you'll need more repair kits. Want to drive with your brains off, then use the roads.

I do drive with overcharger and at full speed and I seldomly hit stuff offroads when I concentrate on driving. But I also try to avoid driving under big trees and I am always ready to make last millisecond corrections to avoid suddenly popping up obstacles. And I can even drive through the wasteland this way at high speed when I concentrate on driving.

But I still occaisonally (or often in the wasteland) hit something popping up that I see too late, just like you. I may have to drive through a big tree and just have to accept that I sometimes will hit something, just like you. But at least on the motorbike I can easily drive to a town 2kms away and back and have lost maybe about 50% which I consider okaish. I can't speak about the 4x4, I never used it much.

Maybe for TFP the motorbike IS the offroad vehicle while the 4x4 is the vehicle for roads. If you use the 4x4 mostly offroads, wheeell, except a higher repair bill,

1% for going over some curb? That is just some value so that you have to repair your bicycle from time to time because of general wear and tear (IMHO). TFP could have also installed a timed ticking down of the durability whenver you drive but that would naturally look strange if your durability would tick down even on flat road.

There is also the possibility that your hardware is slow so obstacles pop out later than usual for you. Do you have >60 FPS when driving? 

 

[8_Hussars]

We spent a lot of time trying to figure out who should loot which containers. It didn't make a lot of sense since they were spec'd into looting but I was asking to have priority on boxes I needed books from.

Between the super lucrative quest rewards, insanely well stocked traders, and gamestage-based loot quality we were in steel tier purples before the day 21 horde.

I hope this system is iterated on or changed again because I don't think I'll be playing unmodded 7days while it exists. You can tell me all the ways I'm wrong but it won't change the fact that it just wasn't fun for me. Other than that, A21 was a blast and I enjoyed pretty much everything. Really loved the new POIs and the facelifts on the older ones. You can tell whoever is working on these really love their job and I appreciate the heck out of them for that.

I am not sure what the solution is other than to rework the trader system as it throws off the crafting balance.  Balance can be improved by a player imposing their own restrictions but that is not an attractive solution (or doable) for many. 

Players will min/max the fun out of any game.  Often the min/maxing is the fun part, but in A21 that does not seem to be the case for many.

 

[Riamus]

There is also the possibility that your hardware is slow so obstacles pop out later than usual for you. Do you have >60 FPS when driving? 

My FPS varies quite a lot and for no apparent reason sometimes.  I typically am in the 40s, though it can fluctuate from 20-60 depending on what's around me.  Normally, this isn't an issue and I have object distance increased so stuff usually isn't popping up last second except when I've completed a tier 5 in a large town and everything starts lagging badly.  In those cases, moving less than full speed without using shift can still have things pop up within a couple meters of me.  I accept that and am not really complaining about damage from that, though.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Imo the Learn by reading feels kinda.... rushed. Imo like no lead up, no discussion that I remember, just.  Hey in alpha 21 we are adding LBR

While I like the system. And its fun in single player, multi-player is kinda a pain. The host mostly reads them. Aka me. 

I can't imagine what servers are like.  People are ether stuck in the stone age or keep hitting the traders and double loot up. 

I think a hybrid of LBR and LBD or even LBL (learn by reading , learn by doing and learn by leveling) 

*cough* alpha 22 dev diary

*cough cough* Overlord armor