PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

I Agree, The snow biome is full of predators that can and will kill you in early game if you don't prepare properly it should have some reward to pair with that danger, otherwise there will be even less reason to go in said biome ( frankly that is already a problem)

 
The inventory system doesn't work that realistically with stone, wood, meat, etc etc.  You're picking and choosing.


Sure. My point was that on the one hand this change removes some logic and adds it somewhere else, though naturally there is a difference in importance between realism and ingame logic

But lets go a bit deeper here, you were saying it doesn't fit ingame logic. How?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
They're still not going to use it. They're going to focus Better Barter instead. I think we both know this.


I was talking about you who invests in "iron gut" and who should be glad he gets more out of it now.

Also "they" do not all decide the same. In that mass there are surely players who are on the fence right now whether to invest in "Iron Gut". Strengthening the appeal of IG is certainly a step in the right direction and will win some over from always choosing BB.

🙄 or just build them on the ground etc. I get all of that. The thing is that it removes the option of not having to do that. If you want to go into end game then you're just going to have to manage the sprawl. No choice.


In that way it is similar to farming now. Either farm or buy lots of food from the trader or hunt. If you farm in A20, you likely will farm and collect dew in A21. If you get your food from other means in A20, you probably should be able to do that with water as well. Sewers will be for water what chickens are for food. The water purify will be for water what the snow biome is for food.

So I think the choice is still there.

Yes, I do think that. There are more than a dozen POIs that were added in a20 with just that end in mind.


You'll have to explain that. Note that in A20 cities were upgraded so it follows that sturdy city buildings were added. And before A20 there were already hundreds of great POIs to make a base out of. My opinion is that TFP is simply accepting that changes that would invalidate POIs as bases would also remove fun and replayability and is not worth the trouble.

If TFP were against said features, it could only be to force players to build more, but if players are not building more already it's because they just don't want to.


Exactly. It is not worth going against the feature if eradicating it makes the game worse. The same happened with nerd poling by the way. There was discussion about ways to prevent nerd poling to safety or for end loot, but TFP said there was no good solution and too many ways to do the same, for example with ladders. So nerd poling stayed.

To be clear, I don't think that the water changes are going to have much of an effect on the average player besides the occasional case of dysentery. If it does, it'll quickly be balanced out. I do think that it narrows the game play options for a number of niche playstyles in order to force the use of an asset that they just really wanted to add when they could've easily just limited the stack size of jars, or just make them unstackable like buckets, and gotten the same effect. 


I disagree that limiting the stack size would have the same effect, not even if you limit it to 1. You would still have all the water in the world, but you would fill your inventory with water (or tea) in the morning and always drink some before looting. You won't be forced to drink muck at all, you won't be looking for water. You just would have some additional (and I'd say annoying) inventory grind to do.

There may be better or lets say less invasive solutions to the problem of water. This one though has definitely some drawbacks. I don't doubt that there are some players who might like it, I have my doubts that I would.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I replied because you always sound like a grumpy old man who's never happy about anything.

"It was better in the ol' days", you simply can't accept change and come up with "reasons" to justify that.

I understand that changing the game will mess up your mods and makes your work harder, I do, but as you very well know TFP have always been keen on changing things until what they see in the game "feels right", so you shouldn't be surprised or disappointed or grumpy about that. You "signed" into it.

Traders are an integral part of gameplay: if you purposefully don't use them, you'll miss some stuff the devs have balanced (that's why I brought up balance) to also be available from them or their quests. So your blank statement about not using traders after they explained you can find murky water also in quest locations, means you were unhappy about not having the option.

Nice try.
You seem to have some sort of internal balance struggle that you may need to work out, because you're projecting.  Projecting is when you feel something but can't process the emotion so you put it onto others.  I'm quite fine with change.  In fact, modding *is* change so you don't even make sense.  Either I don't like change or I mod, it can't be both.  Keep working it out though, I'm proud of you.

I think I have the reason why you do it though.  You are the one who doesn't like the change, and that conflicts with your deep rooted need to simp to the pimps, so instead of acknowledging that you don't like the change, you fabricate a reality and apply your dislikes onto others.  It's really quite fascinating.  All of your posts are both simping AND letting out your own emotions.  It's a good start, I recommend starting a journal.

Take the "balance" comment for instance.  First you said "and then ask the devs why is the game not balanced to your way of playing the game", which is NOT something I asked, but now you acknowledge that you brought up balance.  Projecting.

...when you look back, all you will  see is me saying removing jars is weird, and that it won't make acquiring water any more difficult. 

But now you have created this reality where I'm a grumpy old man who's never happy about anything, even though I really like A20, it's still my favorite game, I enjoy the pimps and most players, and I appreciate the gift of the game, not to mention that I believe it's the most polished version of the game since I started in a6 or a7.

I've noticed you tend to do that a lot though.  Someone will say something, then you will fabricate what they said into something else and argue against that fabrication.  That's called a strawman argument.

Hell, after Schwartz said that getitem is staying in, I'm actually cool with the removal because it won't affect me.  You on the other hand, keep defending it against any and everyone who has an opinion, all the while making up their arguments for them.

I'm thinking they are YOUR arguments.  Good, this is growth.  Slow, but that's to be expected.  

You know, it IS okay to not like something TFP does.  I pinky promise that they don't care. 😃

Traders are a dumb path to take, because you get caught in a loop.  Go to trader, get quest, do quest, get trivial object, repeat.  You end up spending your days performing menial tasks that don't net you anything decent, when simple looting can net you TONS more resources that will get you to a more comfortable place come horde night.

Going to traders creates a false need that you *have* to have something, when you do not.  I suppose it's your social media generation, where you end up believing that you need things (like your need for tfp validation as an example) when you don't, I dunno.

By using traders, you make it harder on yourself because you are constantly putting your player in danger for very little reward while spending time doing quests instead of preparing your base, farm, meat collection, etc.

Then there is the flip side of traders.  All of that loot you got by looting and NOT doing trader quests is easily spendable *at* the trader so you can easily purchase what you need early on, and yes, I choose not to do that as well.

I know you don't read or comprehend the posts you respond to, but if you were able to, you'd see that a large number of the complaints is that the survival aspect of the game is trivial.  I think part of the reason it's not trivial for YOU, is that you follow the way TFP wants you to play, but that's exactly what makes it artificial.  Me, I prefer free play.  Do what I want and how I want to do it.  The game used to be billed as "An open world, voxel-based, sandbox game blending the best elements of FPS, Survival Horror, Tower Defense and Role Playing Games."  That's on their kickstarter.

In video games, an open world is a game mechanic of using a virtual world that the player can explore and approach objectives freely, as opposed to a world with more linear and structured gameplay.

But you keep arguing for playing it the TFP way.  Well, agree to disagree then.

When I play single player I rarely make it past the bow stage crafting wise.  Because I don't need to.  TFP has been kind enough to make wood into concrete in a lot of poi's which make them super suitable for horde nights.  Why fight a feral radiated behemoth demolisher that can fly and spit nuclear acid when I don't have to.  It just seems silly.  I prefer to take the tower defense approach and make it though the night that way.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Until you unlock... TA DA! ... the DISHWASHER!  :washing:
washing dirty dishes in dirty water? I'm not sure  :bathbaby: No need to attack me, I'm on your side, just trying to find a compromise to stop this endless stream of discussion and the opportunity to focus on something more interesting and important  :)

 
washing dirty dishes in dirty water? I'm not sure  :bathbaby: No need to attack me, I'm on your side, just trying to find a compromise to stop this endless stream of discussion and the opportunity to focus on something more interesting and important  :)
Pfft, good luck.  Once TFP releases another tidbit of something remotely controversial the cycle will start anew on that.

 
Ive already broken down why the empty jars were removed and how it changes the game and why having an infinitely refillable container is a bad idea—several times. Go back and read so you can understand why the change was made. No change is made simply to make a change. That isn’t how game design works. These changes were made after team meetings in which the ramifications were discussed and then tested. When it comes out in experimental it will be further tested by the overall community. I know some people won’t like it but I’m pretty confident most will enjoy the change and appreciate having a new type of workstation to craft and a new type of farm to create—all while making the game more consistent with itself. 

I’d love to hear an explanation of why this is seen by some as the best way to design a game. Really. 
 

For this game the design comes from the proven professional developers and adjustments to that design comes from player feedback after they’ve had a chance to play it. 
 

I occasionally read people who criticize a change on the basis that nobody asked for it as if that is all the reason needed for why the change shouldn’t have happened. Others seem to want the devs to poll the players before they make a design decision in order to get the okay to proceed. Say what?!?

 
That will come when post release updates come. The objective now is to polish and refine and finalize everything for what the base game is going to offer that the majority of new players is going to experience. An update that adds content to expand gameplay for Days 50 - 100 would be exactly the type of thing to extend the game once it is finished. You’re asking for version 1.5 while the devs are working on version 1.0. That is the risk of becoming a veteran player while the game is in early access. You play out the whole unfinished base game before it is done and then you have a long wait for them to finish the base game and then start working on extended game updates before you are going to see something new in the end game. 


1. Well.... this is how sometimes game design works... or almost everything ( i mean project things like - cars, phones). And it's nothing postive. Why is this  happening?  Well - personal decision of leader, personal changes. And some thing are changed/removed not because are bad etc. just because supervisor just change his mind because why not. So because some people just decided to change their job because in one studio supervisor was so.... changeable and a lot of their job ended in bin 😕

2. "  design comes from player feedback". Criticize is feedback.  You don't have to see this in game to know that something will be good or not - just describtion is just enough. but i agree that unfounded criticize is bad. 

3.Well...  there is no possibility to add something good for Days 50-100.  Well - there is no option for gigantic mutants or making settlement. In my opinion 7dtd can't be for "long term gameplay". This would need reduce MP into 4 player and do totaly redesign of game. So at least for me 7dtd is just the best for Day 30 but with 180 min per day

For me, the problem with realism and games is you have to draw the line somewhere before it just stops being fun (subjective)

I can be completely off here but I feel 7 days to die is somewhere in the middle as far as realism is concerned.  It's not a hardcore realism simulation like project zomboid and it's not a slapstick cartoony arcade game like Orcs Must Die.  (Although twitch integration 😅)
Well... OMD is not totaly arcade because you have grinding. L4D2 is totaly arcade game.

 IF : 1.fortnite - 10 . project zomboid

 then 

7dtd is 3 

As 5 i could put Metal gear Survive

 
You seem to have some sort of internal balance struggle that you may need to work out, because you're projecting.  Projecting is when you feel something but can't process the emotion so you put it onto others.  I'm quite fine with change.  In fact, modding *is* change so you don't even make sense.  Either I don't like change or I mod, it can't be both.  Keep working it out though, I'm proud of you.

I think I have the reason why you do it though.  You are the one who doesn't like the change, and that conflicts with your deep rooted need to simp to the pimps, so instead of acknowledging that you don't like the change, you fabricate a reality and apply your dislikes onto others.  It's really quite fascinating.  All of your posts are both simping AND letting out your own emotions.  It's a good start, I recommend starting a journal.

Take the "balance" comment for instance.  First you said "and then ask the devs why is the game not balanced to your way of playing the game", which is NOT something I asked, but now you acknowledge that you brought up balance.  Projecting.

...when you look back, all you will  see is me saying removing jars is weird, and that it won't make acquiring water any more difficult. 

But now you have created this reality where I'm a grumpy old man who's never happy about anything, even though I really like A20, it's still my favorite game, I enjoy the pimps and most players, and I appreciate the gift of the game, not to mention that I believe it's the most polished version of the game since I started in a6 or a7.

I've noticed you tend to do that a lot though.  Someone will say something, then you will fabricate what they said into something else and argue against that fabrication.  That's called a strawman argument.

Hell, after Schwartz said that getitem is staying in, I'm actually cool with the removal because it won't affect me.  You on the other hand, keep defending it against any and everyone who has an opinion, all the while making up their arguments for them.

I'm thinking they are YOUR arguments.  Good, this is growth.  Slow, but that's to be expected.  

You know, it IS okay to not like something TFP does.  I pinky promise that they don't care. 😃

Traders are a dumb path to take, because you get caught in a loop.  Go to trader, get quest, do quest, get trivial object, repeat.  You end up spending your days performing menial tasks that don't net you anything decent, when simple looting can net you TONS more resources that will get you to a more comfortable place come horde night.

Going to traders creates a false need that you *have* to have something, when you do not.  I suppose it's your social media generation, where you end up believing that you need things (like your need for tfp validation as an example) when you don't, I dunno.

By using traders, you make it harder on yourself because you are constantly putting your player in danger for very little reward while spending time doing quests instead of preparing your base, farm, meat collection, etc.

Then there is the flip side of traders.  All of that loot you got by looting and NOT doing trader quests is easily spendable *at* the trader so you can easily purchase what you need early on, and yes, I choose not to do that as well.

I know you don't read or comprehend the posts you respond to, but if you were able to, you'd see that a large number of the complaints is that the survival aspect of the game is trivial.  I think part of the reason it's not trivial for YOU, is that you follow the way TFP wants you to play, but that's exactly what makes it artificial.  Me, I prefer free play.  Do what I want and how I want to do it.  The game used to be billed as "An open world, voxel-based, sandbox game blending the best elements of FPS, Survival Horror, Tower Defense and Role Playing Games."  That's on their kickstarter.

In video games, an open world is a game mechanic of using a virtual world that the player can explore and approach objectives freely, as opposed to a world with more linear and structured gameplay.

But you keep arguing for playing it the TFP way.  Well, agree to disagree then.

When I play single player I rarely make it past the bow stage crafting wise.  Because I don't need to.  TFP has been kind enough to make wood into concrete in a lot of poi's which make them super suitable for horde nights.  Why fight a feral radiated behemoth demolisher that can fly and spit nuclear acid when I don't have to.  It just seems silly.  I prefer to take the tower defense approach and make it though the night that way.
Wow! For someone who's accusing me of "projecting" you're doing a lot of that your self!

I've never been aware you were behind my chair whenever I was playing (that's creepy, BTW, stop it!).

Anyway, I'm not trying to project anything here, I just read too much in your reply, and for that I apologize.

The way you write makes me think you're a psychologist, maybe?

I'm humbled you've dedicated so much time to that huge reply... since you're there, can you write me a custom mod?

Thanks Grumpycur! ;)  

After reading all of this, I am not much bothered by the water change myself. 

My biggest complaint is the use of Dew Collectors instead of making it a more multi-staged process that would be a bit more realistic.

Dew and rain water collection in a fallout zone is a bad idea due to the pickup of micro particles that have been irradiated (as would drinking from any water source open to the air).  Such water still needs to be treated.

One could build a clay earth filter to clear out the radioactive fallout and micro particulates from the water.  These are very simple to make and can be made with primitive materials (cloth, clay, earth, pipe).

Such a filter can clear about 2-3 quarts of water per hour and is usually good for about 40-50 quarts of water before you need to construct a new one due to the build up of the radioactive materials.

Such filtered water would then still need to be boiled to clear any microorganisms.

Overall though, based on the above realities vs game universe, getting 3 water per day from a device that never breaks and just pretending the above process was done will be an easy suspension of disbelief IMO.  Might need to up tweak the values if going for more realism.
Since you're talking about realism... I don't think that filtering radioactive water with dirt will remove the radioactivity.  :spit:

washing dirty dishes in dirty water? I'm not sure  :bathbaby: No need to attack me, I'm on your side, just trying to find a compromise to stop this endless stream of discussion and the opportunity to focus on something more interesting and important  :)
What made you think I was attacking you?  :pout:

Dang! Must be the propaganda of that nasty old Grumpycur!  :ohwell:

 
Since you're talking about realism... I don't think that filtering radioactive water with dirt will remove the radioactivity.  :spit:
The dangers to most water after any type of nuclear explosion is the particles of fallout/exposed matter that can be absorbed/suspended into the water.  Those particles will be held in the clouds for quite some time and also deposited into nearby water sources that are open to the air outside the blast radius.  Those can be filtered out using a clay earth filter.

 
The dangers to most water after any type of nuclear explosion is the particles of fallout/exposed matter that can be absorbed/suspended into the water.  Those particles will be held in the clouds for quite some time and also deposited into nearby water sources that are open to the air outside the blast radius.  Those can be filtered out using a clay earth filter.
How Do I Treat Radioactive Water?


If you are concerned about the levels of radioactivity in your water, then you will need to put a treatment plan into place. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer for removing radiation from the water. In many cases, a combination of treatment methods, including carbon filtration, ion-exchange water softening, and reverse osmosis, is most effective. Call the Certified Water Specialists at US Water Systems for assistance. High levels of radiation in water may not be treatable.
A bit more complicated than you're assuming... but, ok, for gaming purposes we could have a suspension of disbelief i guess.

 
The dangers to most water after any type of nuclear explosion is the particles of fallout/exposed matter that can be absorbed/suspended into the water.  Those particles will be held in the clouds for quite some time and also deposited into nearby water sources that are open to the air outside the blast radius.  Those can be filtered out using a clay earth filter.
Well i think doing things like this could be pretty fun. Maybe in next game?

 
Sure. My point was that on the one hand this change removes some logic and adds it somewhere else, though naturally there is a difference in importance between realism and ingame logic

But lets go a bit deeper here, you were saying it doesn't fit ingame logic. How?
I mean, we're gonna try it with an open mind, but at first glance it sounds like a game company overcooking something.  If I can carry stacks and stacks of other stuff but not bottles which would be everywhere, that breaks the game logic.  I can carry so much stone and clay that I can make a fort out of my pocket.  Why say that kind of stack-inventory system is fine for so many things but not bottles/jars?  Why can I make a gyrocopter but not a glass or clay jar?

Maybe the new system will make enough sense that it doesn't matter, maybe not.  This is the same game company that refuses to admit that the yucca smoothie should cool you down and not warm you up.  Game companies can do five things right and then just fumble the hell out of it.  Take Fallout 76 as a similar example: good IP, good core idea, bad execution based on dumb over-management.

I don't particularly hold out hope that TFP will take a note from fans, because most game companies don't take a note.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top