PC It's all gone wrong, terribly wrong.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Not assuming the increase of the demolisher damage, but it get´s already worse once a demo explodes and the block damage of the other zombies is increasing.

I really think that if that is going to be the solution against POI cheesing, the cheesing with other methods will increase and there is a quite a few of them. And TFP can´t avoid every cheesy method. Maybe if they spend a year only doing that and nothing else. Wich i highly doubt.

In the end you will only punish people who built hordebases without cheesing.

Also it´s already weird how fast they can magically break steel blocks with bare hands and somehow get bonus damage when hitting one block in a group. I can live with that, it´s understandable. But making this even more weird by adding more damage over time to a zombie, who should actually make less damage the longer it lives due to rotting, is too much.

 

[meganoth]

Not assuming the increase of the demolisher damage, but it get´s already worse once a demo explodes and the block damage of the other zombies is increasing.

The demo usually explodes in your sight because you hit its trigger, his damage is usually also on blocks in your sight because of this and any zombies hitting on those blocks are in your sight and can be killed looooooong before any damage increase happens.

I'm not talking about zombies that  increase their damage as glowies increase their health if that isn't obvious. How much? I don't know, that would have to be playtested to find good values. But just as an example what values I would possibly use for a first test:

A zombies would start at 80% of its current block damage

After 1 hour alive it would be at 90%

After 2 hours it would be at 110%

After 3 hours it would be at 140%

After 4 hours 180%. Probably it should be capped, so the next 2 hours at default day length it would stay at 180%.

And in a normal game this would happen to only the few zombies you never killed. If zombies change their target from time to time players wouldn't even notice a change from now. If not then the zombies still have to change target after destroying a block, and I remember that they very often do not continue on the hole they made before.  

I really think that if that is going to be the solution against POI cheesing, the cheesing with other methods will increase and there is a quite a few of them. And TFP can´t avoid every cheesy method. Maybe if they spend a year only doing that and nothing else. Wich i highly doubt.

In the end you will only punish people who built hordebases without cheesing.

I don't get this "punish". In a game this is called a challenge, a task. 

I wouldn't survive any melee combat in insane difficulty (or at least die a lot, not sure, never really tried it), but I think it is almost trivial for me to build a base that would easily withstand those zombies (whether from a POI or I build it myself doesn't matter). I don't see how this is balanced at all.

Also it´s already weird how fast they can magically break steel blocks with bare hands and somehow get bonus damage when hitting one block in a group. I can live with that, it´s understandable. But making this even more weird by adding more damage over time to a zombie, who should actually make less damage the longer it lives due to rotting, is too much.

And isn't it equally magical how the player can construct buildings with those same steel blocks? Maybe this is a hoax. Those are flimsy wood blocks painted with silver and TFP just calls them steel. But we can carry them like balsa wood blocks and the zombies likewise can destroy those fake blocks

 

[Khyron]

I think it's pretty hilarious that in a game where the player can craft a motorcycle out of 4 lbs of nails worth of iron and can use a NAILGUN to somehow... nail concrete to cobblestone? Or somehow smashing a plywood block with an axe manages to turn it into reinforced wood complete with nails, despite no nails actually being consumed? The physics behind all basebuilding is mind-boggling to the nth degree.

Anyway, in a game with all that magical stuff, a gigantic mutated evil zombie attacking and breaking a steel door seems comically minor in comparison.

So maybe we should just leave it at "It's just a game and it's there to be more fun  " rather than try to dissect it all down into the nitty gritty.

Not trying to be confrontational here, just pointing out that when the subject of realism comes up the game's basically as fantastic as Harry Potter if you start looking at it from the right angles

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganothI am not a fan of carrying tons in my backpack. Absolute realism wouldn´t fit here, you would have to make a ton of trips. But i wouldn´t mind not beeing able to carry a ton of steel or concrete blocks.

But i don´t even start that suggestion because most people wouldn´t enjoy an at least somewhat realistic carry restriction. Same with beeing able to simply put my car into the inventory. Not a fan. Not a popular opinion either.

The change you suggest would mean you will need to kill fast. Wich doesn´t fit every playsyle, dumbing down the game in terms of variety even further and it would promote the rushing playstyle wich you guys always look down at. 

And it would mean that 64 zombies on hordenight are way more difficult. The only occassion in the game where you have that much zombies, wich is lackluster in the rest of the game. Would make the subtitle "horde" of the game even more riddiculous if people turn down zombies due to that change tbh.

 

[RipClaw]

Anyway, in a game with all that magical stuff, a gigantic mutated evil zombie attacking and breaking a steel door seems comically minor in comparison.

A giant steel wall-smashing behemoth would be a problem for two reasons, and they have nothing to do with realism.

The first problem is pathing. As far as I know, the idea of the Behemoth was dropped because it was not compatible with the new pathing to have a 5 block behemoth in the game. I see these problems all the time in mods that integrate such titans.

The second problem is that you force players to play a certain way. Traps would be ridiculously ineffective against such a monster and what should a melee player do? Put a ladder in front of the zombie, climb up and hit the monster on the head? Basically, everyone will be forced to use firearms.

 

[meganoth]

@meganothI am not a fan of carrying tons in my backpack. Absolute realism wouldn´t fit here, you would have to make a ton of trips. But i wouldn´t mind not beeing able to carry a ton of steel or concrete blocks.

But i don´t even start that suggestion because most people wouldn´t enjoy an at least somewhat realistic carry restriction. Same with beeing able to simply put my car into the inventory. Not a fan. Not a popular opinion either.

Ok.

The change you suggest would mean you will need to kill fast.

For me "fast" means something like the speed with which you have to kill a glowy to be faster than its self-healing. Fast may mean a few dozen seconds real-time. But in my example I am talking about more than an ingame hour aka more than 6 minutes real-time before a specific zombie even reaches the block damage he does now in A20.

I.e. since a zombie starts with lower damage than now he can live 10-15 minutes real-time (nearly 3 hours in-game) before he even reaches the cumulative damage he would have done now (which may even be too long, come to think of it).

I don't know how your horde nights go, but in my horde nights 90% of zombies have a lifespan of less than 30 seconds. 

Wich doesn´t fit every playsyle, dumbing down the game in terms of variety even further and it would promote the rushing playstyle wich you guys always look down at. 

The feature is "designed" so it makes not that much difference to normal playstyles and only gets noticable on a playstyle that leaves all or almost all zombies alive on horde night. In my view you are warning about what could happen if the feature were misbalanced. I'm assuming the feature would be balanced after a few iterations. 

And it would mean that 64 zombies on hordenight are way more difficult.

Not if they stand correctly in line to their execution . Seriously, that also depends on how you fight that 64 zombie horde. And whether you make other changes, for example their speed OR turning base block damage down somewhat.

The only occassion in the game where you have that much zombies, wich is lackluster in the rest of the game. Would make the subtitle "horde" of the game even more riddiculous if people turn down zombies due to that change tbh.

They don't need to. They already change one option to increase zombies to max, why would they have a problem to turn down another option a notch to accomodate their playstyle? If that is necessary at all, a sizable part of those 64 zombies have to live much longer than 3 hours to make a difference.

 

[Matt115]

The second problem is that you force players to play a certain way. Traps would be ridiculously ineffective against such a monster and what should a melee player do? Put a ladder in front of the zombie, climb up and hit the monster on the head? Basically, everyone will be forced to use firearms.

Well... that's a reason why perk tree is so bad  idea. Yes, that's point of guns - avoid risk of being hit by enemy and do a lot of damage. Melee weapons are early game neccesity , tool and ammo saver. So make melee weapons and range weapons "good" was bad idea

I.e. since a zombie starts with lower damage than now he can live 10-15 minutes real-time (nearly 3 hours in-game) before he even reaches the cumulative damage he would have done now (which may even be too long, come to think of it).

I don't know how your horde nights go, but in my horde nights 90% of zombies have a lifespan of less than 30 seconds. 

Well few times i had 1-3 zombie that's stuck in too "big" walll for them so they were hitting them for so long time. So this was annoing because we were forced to finding them after longer whiler during blood moon. So change their dmg in time would be more annoing because even now zombies are too smart. So spawn of new "destroyed" zombie typ would be much better option that this

 

[RipClaw]

Melee weapons are early game neccesity , tool and ammo saver. So make melee weapons and range weapons "good" was bad idea

I use melee weapons even in the late game. Not to save ammo but because they are much more fun than guns.

A gun is just point and click. When I use a melee weapon I have to move around, make sure I don't get hit too much by the zombies, don't get pushed into a corner, and so on.

 

[Khyron]

A giant steel wall-smashing behemoth would be a problem for two reasons, and they have nothing to do with realism.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean 'gigantic' in that manner. I was mostly referring to the larger zombies - the Demolisher, the cop, the lumberjack, etc. I guess Gigantic was the wrong word to use - I just meant that zombies bashing steel vault doors or hatches or blocks with their bare hands and eventually making their way through isn't "realistic" but it is good from a gameplay standpoint.

 

[Rotor]

I use melee weapons even in the late game. Not to save ammo but because they are much more fun than guns.

A gun is just point and click. When I use a melee weapon I have to move around, make sure I don't get hit too much by the zombies, don't get pushed into a corner, and so on.

Cassius is that you?

 

[Matt115]

I use melee weapons even in the late game. Not to save ammo but because they are much more fun than guns.

A gun is just point and click. When I use a melee weapon I have to move around, make sure I don't get hit too much by the zombies, don't get pushed into a corner, and so on.

Well most people use melee for example against single zombie on read. There is tons of bullets in 7DTD. MG survival is medicore game but have soo good fighting implementation  - you use melee most time because bullets are expensive and rare as hell so you keep them for bigger groups and special zombies. 7dtd would be much better if bullets would be reduce by 90% but  increase dmg of them by 50%  and throw perk tree into bin

 

[Roland]

I use melee weapons even in the late game. Not to save ammo but because they are much more fun than guns.

A gun is just point and click. When I use a melee weapon I have to move around, make sure I don't get hit too much by the zombies, don't get pushed into a corner, and so on.

This from the guy who prefers horde bases where the traps destroy the whole horde so he doesn't have to get involved himself...?

 

[RipClaw]

This from the guy who prefers horde bases where the traps destroy the whole horde so he doesn't have to get involved himself...?

Can't I have both? A horde base that fully automatically processes the horde into mincemeat but doing melee when I do quests ?

I have also built bases that combined both. Traps to thin out the horde and the remaining zombies got their skulls crushed with the hammer.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth i should have added that starting with lower damage does defeat the purpose of this change even if you go to double damage over time that wouldn´t be enough.

Let´s take dishong, beeing on the roof, every path up there is interrupted. It wouldn´t even collapse with 500% damage increase during the 15mins of hordenight. And even the silo could propably take 300% easily. Wich would simply be overwhelming for a normal self built hordebase that doesn´t rely on pathing exploits like the corridor base.

 

[Roland]

Can't I have both?

yep

 

[meganoth]

@meganoth i should have added that starting with lower damage does defeat the purpose of this change even if you go to double damage over time that wouldn´t be enough.

Let´s take dishong, beeing on the roof, every path up there is interrupted. It wouldn´t even collapse with 500% damage increase during the 15mins of hordenight. And even the silo could propably take 300% easily. Wich would simply be overwhelming for a normal self built hordebase that doesn´t rely on pathing exploits like the corridor base.

I don't know. This is something that has to be tested, i.e. how much more damage is needed over a whole night with an advanced horde. I wouldn't be surprised if you are right.

Whether that invalidates the idea or a fix that would remove 95% of all buildings from being used as AFK-bases and maybe provide some "fun" for normal base builders too might be worth something, is another debate.

But if you call leading the zombies into traps a pathing exploit then you want a very different game than I do anyway (one that can't really be called tower defense anymore in my view). So we are arguing from very different standpoints and it is no surprise we come to very different conclusions.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth The corridor base does rely on the fact that zombies see a path where there actually isn´t a path. It´s two solid walls with a roof wich they see as a path and inbetween you and them is a gap of 5 blocks and it´s impossible to path over that for the player aswell. That´s called exploiting the AI. No matter how you look at it. There is other ways of exploiting their pathing, but i don´t know anything about those.

If you have blocks that push them down on their way to you, that´s a whole different story as there actually is a path with actual existing blocks that they could stand on if it wasn´t for the blocks on the side pushing them into a hole. That´s what we do often.

 

[meganoth]

@meganoth The corridor base does rely on the fact that zombies see a path where there actually isn´t a path. It´s two solid walls with a roof wich they see as a path and inbetween you and them is a gap of 5 blocks and it´s impossible to path over that for the player aswell. That´s called exploiting the AI. No matter how you look at it. There is other ways of exploiting their pathing, but i don´t know anything about those.

Ah ok. The name is a bit misleading as for me corridor is just a synonym for funnel.

 

[Ray Garraty]

Bullet and material production rendered obsolete

There's still not nearly enough AP bullets in loot and quest rewards, and you need A LOT of them for horde nights