PC Open Letter to TFP's...

[katarynna]

Or maybe their "kill corridor" was as simplistic and ineffective as their try1 and try2 defenses. How high was their outer wall and what was it made of? By turrets, do they mean auto and shotgun turrets positioned to take out zombies in their kill corridor or a junk sledge placed where it won't hit anything. Mines are one and done. Barbed wire would have been a better use of resources to slow the zombies while you headshot them. Spikes did not work for try 1 or 2, so why make them a focus for try 3?

You can definitely make a poi a defensible horde base without using exploits. Why they failed to do so on try 3, i couldn't say with a video or at least pics. But imo for try 1 & 2, they just did not try hard enough and put in enough time to make a defensible base, which is a failing on their part and not the game. 

There is nothing wrong with having a base fail. You just have to be willing to learn from your mistakes and not repeat them.

 

[meganoth]

I'm not sure why, despite the lengthy paragraph documenting their third try, people keep focusing on the obviously-have-failed-thus-the-third-attempt first and second base. It's weird, really.

Ditches, spikes, mines, an outer wall, turrets, kill corridor. I don't see anything wrong there. What they most probably didn't do was exploit the zombies pathing, which is why they failed. Or progressed past the stone age maybe

A lengthy paragraph with a list of stuff they set up somewhere doesn't tell me much about the actual layout of their base and where they possibly made a mistake. But for the first two tries the (probable) mistake was hinted at in the description. For more I would have to see a video of the night or at least a picture and a description where the zombies broke through and how they got to them.

Btw. I built a few sturdy horde bases myself that got unexpectedly invaded by zombies because I made a mistake. This even should happen from time to time so you never feel too sure. 

 

[Ralathar44]

I think you missed the first sentence. They didn't build a base from scratch, they converted a POI to a base. Your examples were all apparently bases that you built from scratch.

And you missed this line in my last paragraph .

And yes, I convert POIs all the time.  It can still easily be done.

 

[Ralathar44]

I can totally see what @Solomon describes happening. There's really nothing in the game that prepares new players for that first horde night experiance in 7dtd.

Imo his group didn't do anything "wrong", they simply had no idea what the game was going to throw at them.

That said, I really wish I could have a bit of selective amnesia to experiance again, for the first time, that first horde night.

Aye.  I learned how to build bases and convert POIs through many failures and many deaths.  My first few hordes of A17 murdered me horribly lol.  But I learned and adapted.  Ultimately learning and adapting makes it easier to learn and adapt in the future.  Game or life either one.  Expecting someone to bail you out from above MAY be reasonable sometimes, but it'll leave you far less capable overall in the long run. 

People say zombies do X or zombies do Y but zombies have never had a definitive fiction.  Even the great modern grandaddy of zombies, George Romero, had zombies that rode horses and shot guns and forming communities and etc.  So most people don't even know what HIS zombies were like .

If you listen to @Ralathar44s commentary in the first vid he linked, and take in how much effort went into that base, for just the first horde night(!), it will give you an idea that actually TFPs have really toned down the early hordes in a18 and, it appears, even a bit more in a19.

That was legit rough.  They finally nerfed early resource collection enough in that update to effectively "force" POI conversion for at least the first horde night.  A positive change overall IMO, but as a base builder at heart I definitely had to course correct on what was practical for early game.  I build bases and convert POIs both still but now custom built bases are day 14 or day 21 affairs.  Not day 7 anymore .  It could still be done, but you gotta go all in on it. 

 

[Roland]

I think he's playing this from role playing a reasonable human being point of view. I'm not sure which POI he took, so I'm assuming he fortified a completely normal house, with stairs. Normally you simply don't destroy your own home. You reinforce the walls and shoot the enemies sure but not break the stairs down every week, that'd be painful to repair

I agree that from a role playing perspective this would be true of the first horde night. But then LBD kicks in and we say, “They came up the stairs. Let’s barricade/ chop those down and use a ladder with a hatch to access the upper floors”. That is perfectly acceptable role playing because your character gained the knowledge after the first time. 
 

What is ridiculous is to ignore chopping out the stairs and then say that your only option is to go to exploits like floating bases. 
 

0 to 100 anyone?

The ones I watch usually end with the guys surviving

Really? Usually the busty pretty girl in mine....

It should be noted that every single encampment or base built by any faction in The Walking Dead eventually gets breached. 

 

[Roland]

If you look at the Dungeon Style POIs you will notice that the path is often not directly visible to humans.

For example, climb up a trellis onto the roof and through a hole in the roof into the house. Most players work with frames in this case because they do not recognize the trellis as climbable.

In Alpha 16 this was still quite simple. You had a staircase and as soon as you removed the stairs here the zombies couldn't go up anymore.

That's why I prefer horde bases that were built from scratch. There I know every weak spot and know exactly which way the zombies will go.

This, to me, is exactly the appeal of fortified POI bases. Learning from the breaches of day 7 and 14 so that you are good to go on Day 21. 
 

@Solomon obviously did not figure out the weaknesses and solve them. They left the weaknesses in place and just tried to fortify more against the zombies reaching the weaknesses. 

Now they would rather go straight to exploits rather than solve the weaknesses of the POI. Now maybe for them doing that isn’t fun and I respect that. But to state it is impossible and they are forced to exploit because the devs have stopped them is a load of hooey. 

 

[Laz Man]

This, to me, is exactly the appeal of fortified POI bases. Learning from the breaches of day 7 and 14 so that you are good to go on Day 21. 
 

The OP obviously did not figure out the weaknesses and solve them. They left the weaknesses in place and just tried to fortify more against the zombies reaching the weaknesses. 

Now they would rather go straight to exploits rather than solve the weaknesses of the POI. Now maybe for them doing that isn’t fun and I respect that. But to state it is impossible and they are forced to exploit because the devs have stopped them is a load of hooey. 

Fortifying a POI for horde bases is a fun challenge.  For me, one of the most enjoyable things in the game is figuring out how to prep a POI for horde nights WHILE keeping as much of the existing structure the same.

 

[FileMachete]

Really? Usually the busty pretty girl in mine....

err, got a watch list to share? asking for @SnowDog1942 ... :biggrin1:

Edit: definately agree with the 'change' arc you described for a17 @Ralathar44 I really didn't like the change to early resources. But as you say @Laz Man, I've learned to appreciate fortifying a POI.

 

[Roland]

Fortifying a POI for horde bases is a fun challenge.  For me, one of the most enjoyable things in the game is figuring out how to prep a POI for horde nights WHILE keeping as much of the existing structure the same.

Could make for a nice new quest type: Defend A given POI against x waves of zombies. 

 

[FileMachete]

Could make for a nice new quest type: Defend A given POI against x waves of zombies. 

ya know.. if the POIs were only ones -without- stairs, that might be a subtle way of addressing how to teach new players to get the h6ll up off ground level.

Edit: maybe add in a 'trap' stair block, like the current fall-through-the-floor ones. So player goes to that building, hopefully has the curiousity to see whats above, climbs the stairs, fall through them has a chance to go, 'wth?'

 

[meganoth]

Well, I don't like to presume that everyone who failed simply refused to fight and just embrace death as the zombies break in. It seems from multiple mentions of "defending", they didn't just stand there and actually do some fighting. Their story seems to imply that they did some fighting and the roof was their fallback position. I could be wrong, of course.

It's just that, not a single time have I ever seen anyone actually not fight. Like, at all.

I did not presume they refused to fight. My point was that if I imagine reality I would come to different conclusions than you did. And additionally that both my and your real life hypothesis won't be fun in this game of high-speed building

This sentence does not leave much room for interpretation, the roof was not a fallback: "First try simply wood/stone up the walls and put spikes around the place, defend on the roof."

Also, agreed on the zombies. They're adjusted to deal with reinforced concretes and cheesy tactics, he really should've used the same

Reinforced concrete yes, but I don't think they are adapted for cheesy tactics. What is a cheesy tactic for you? A kill corridor? But that would

1) ignore that historic castles had kill corridors as well

2) the tower defense genre is in short "kill corridor" pressed into a game and this is partly a tower defense game

3) devs never did anything to make kill corridors less effective, IMO they fully endorse kill corridors as a solution

And a good kill corridor is able to defeat demos without damage. 

 

[FileMachete]

Just reading your post @meganoth it occurred to me that, looked at one way, horde bases in 7dtd are kind of backwards in progression, mentally so to speak.

Early on it can be best/easier to go the old 5x5 solid blocks with bars around and shoot/throw from above. Basically have enough HPs below you to keep the zeds from getting to you while raining down from above.

Later on, with help from traps, there can be advantages to just have the zeds come straight at you. Various kill corridors, no drop pits required, direct access, so to speak, to the player; not using block HPs to protect you really, it's the traps and player damage keeping the zeds off.

Just an observation. Can sort of imagine that seeming counter-intuitive to the counter-intuitive (possibly) at the start, heh.

 

[RipClaw]

This, to me, is exactly the appeal of fortified POI bases. Learning from the breaches of day 7 and 14 so that you are good to go on Day 21. 
 

@Solomon obviously did not figure out the weaknesses and solve them. They left the weaknesses in place and just tried to fortify more against the zombies reaching the weaknesses. 

He did what any new player would do. He probably also let himself be fooled by the appearance of blocks. I know POIs where the walls seem to be bricks but it is just painted wood.

It is not obvious for beginners how the spikes work and how they are seen by the zombies. The model of the spikes suggests that the zombies run towards them frontally and are impaled by the spikes. That the spikes are most effective if you sink them into a trench is something new players don't know. Even experienced players have trouble seeing that.

Now they would rather go straight to exploits rather than solve the weaknesses of the POI. Now maybe for them doing that isn’t fun and I respect that. But to state it is impossible and they are forced to exploit because the devs have stopped them is a load of hooey. 

He just doesn't see what he could do differently. I know it can be done differently but I also have the experience and I have spent a lot of time testing different designs to see what works and what doesn't work.

And as for his opinion on the intentions of the developers, we don't have the same access to the developers and their plans as you do. We don't know how they envision the finished game, which defenses they consider valid and which not.
 

 

[meganoth]

Just reading your post @meganoth it occurred to me that, looked at one way, horde bases in 7dtd are kind of backwards in progression, mentally so to speak.

Early on it can be best/easier to go the old 5x5 solid blocks with bars around and shoot/throw from above. Basically have enough HPs below you to keep the zeds from getting to you while raining down from above.

Later on, with help from traps, there can be advantages to just have the zeds come straight at you. Various kill corridors, no drop pits required, direct access, so to speak, to the player; not using block HPs to protect you really, it's the traps and player damage keeping the zeds off.

Just an observation. Can sort of imagine that seeming counter-intuitive to the counter-intuitive (possibly) at the start, heh.

Have you ever tried to just mass-build concrete? I.e. Do lots of mining, convert everything to concrete and just build 5x5 solid blocks (either to form an even bigger block or  a sea of blocks with small spaces between them)?

I would guess you would outbuild the damage the zombies do on each night even if you did not fight them in any way. But not sure, would have to be tested.

So for me later game just provides more possibilities, more variety. You have more and sturdier materials, more traps and more time to build complicated stuff.

 

[meganoth]

He did what any new player would do. He probably also let himself be fooled by the appearance of blocks. I know POIs where the walls seem to be bricks but it is just painted wood.

It is not obvious for beginners how the spikes work and how they are seen by the zombies. The model of the spikes suggests that the zombies run towards them frontally and are impaled by the spikes. That the spikes are most effective if you sink them into a trench is something new players don't know. Even experienced players have trouble seeing that.

He just doesn't see what he could do differently. I know it can be done differently but I also have the experience and I have spent a lot of time testing different designs to see what works and what doesn't work.

And as for his opinion on the intentions of the developers, we don't have the same access to the developers and their plans as you do. We don't know how they envision the finished game, which defenses they consider valid and which not.
 

I agree with the spikes, I even suggested once they change the appearance to make that clearer.

I also think Solomon's group did quite well and 3 attempts before succumbing to the youtube sirens is more than most would do. Having a blind eye for the (to us) obvious solution can happen to everyone.

But I disagree a bit on the devs intentions being oracles. Solomon might not know because he isn't on this forum for long, but you and I surely have read enough of Madmoles opinions about the game and seen enough changes to the game (usually with the main reasons explained by the devs) to have a fairly good idea.

 

[FileMachete]

So for me later game just provides more possibilities, more variety. You have more and sturdier materials, more traps and more time to build complicated stuff.

Yes, exactly. Sry I didn't really follow the first bits you wrote, but I think my post wasn't terribly clear.

Was thinking about the earlier posts and what a brand new player would likely do to defend a horde, and how that's not really a great choice.

I.e. staying at ground level, thinking wooden walls are enough, etc.

Once a new player realizes that getting above the zeds, and making sure there are no stairs/access to get up to them, then that could become a mindset of how to build a horde base.

But later on, with traps, it can be easier/cheaper to build a horde base where the zeds have a much more direct path to you.

Meaning the early 'mindset', which could already have been a bit difficult to embrace, is potentially challenged again later on.

Hopefully that makes more sense. And like I said, just an observation. Not thinking that it's something bad or wrong. I too enjoy the increased options available later on. Maybe a bit too much as I keep making overpowered bases leaving me with little I actually have to do on horde nights. But that's my own fault as my pc can't handle high max alive settings.

 

[Roland]

He did what any new player would do. He probably also let himself be fooled by the appearance of blocks. I know POIs where the walls seem to be bricks but it is just painted wood.

It is not obvious for beginners how the spikes work and how they are seen by the zombies. The model of the spikes suggests that the zombies run towards them frontally and are impaled by the spikes. That the spikes are most effective if you sink them into a trench is something new players don't know. Even experienced players have trouble seeing that.

He just doesn't see what he could do differently. I know it can be done differently but I also have the experience and I have spent a lot of time testing different designs to see what works and what doesn't work.

And as for his opinion on the intentions of the developers, we don't have the same access to the developers and their plans as you do. We don't know how they envision the finished game, which defenses they consider valid and which not.
 

I agree with you that these things are not readily apparent to new players. They have to be sussed out through experimentation and trial and error (or copying a youtube video). I do think that whether someone has direct access to the developers or not they probably know that floating bases are not considered valid. In fact, he knew it wasn't valid and was complaining that doing that might be his only option. I would also submit that a new player would have even less intuitive knowledge about how to make a floating base or even that such things existed. Obviously he knows, so he isn't as new and fresh and innocent about the nature of blocks as you are painting him. 

If it is okay to go onto YouTube and learn how to make a floating base it is also fine to experiment with blocks and try knocking out stairs and sinking spikes into a trench. Those are much more moderate steps to take than going to the extreme and declaring anything less than that is impossible.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I agree with you that these things are not readily apparent to new players. They have to be sussed out through experimentation and trial and error (or copying a youtube video). I do think that whether someone has direct access to the developers or not they probably know that floating bases are not considered valid. In fact, he knew it wasn't valid and was complaining that doing that might be his only option. I would also submit that a new player would have even less intuitive knowledge about how to make a floating base or even that such things existed. Obviously he knows, so he isn't as new and fresh and innocent about the nature of blocks as you are painting him. 

Would a person playing 7D2D for the very first time, without any instruction from a friend, without having seen a video ever, and without any externally gained information about the game, even know what was happening on day 7? Are there any indicators anywhere that the player should be preparing for something the 6 days prior?

 

[katarynna]

i still remember my very first horde. The only outside info i had came from my first day playing. A friend and i bought the game together,  came upon a zombie for the first time, and immediately both of us died at almost the exact same time. We watched one video on what to do on day one in 7dtd.

Comes day 7. we were living in a wooden house in navezgane south of diersville. Had absolutely no idea what was coming. They killed us over and over while destroying wall after wall until they finally brought the house down, destroying absolutely everything.

We were laughing and yelling and having a great time. Once it was all over, we looked up day 7 and discovered what the bloodmoon was. Then we talked about the various points of fail and what we could do better. Then we restarted with a plan.

Our first and subsequent hordes were successful for the most part, as we never had another total loss and experimented with different builds. After that first disastrous horde we learned a) wooden walls are no good for hordes;  b)keep your important stuff out of the fighting area; c) do not leave easy access to your fall back position; d) have an escape route. We learned from our mistakes and improved our horde base designs.

 

[Demandred1957]

You are aware that this game is marketed as having tower defense elements? The horde night IS the tower defense elements. So yeah, you are SUPPOSED to do a variation of tower defense for the tower defense part of the game. Or else turn off hordes or mod it.

"the zombie horde survival crafting game"

Nope, don't see tower defense game anywhere in there.

He's not the only one.

Sounds like parents who give their child a Lego set with the intention of encouraging creativity, and then get angry if what the child builds is not what is on the package.
Finding exploits and integrating them into a base design is also creative.

yep, glad there are people that are more eloquent than I am, to say what I am feeling in a coherent way.

May I recommend you lower down  game difficulty put all zombies to walk at all time  and might as well play in god mode  just so you can be safe.

May I suggest you take a long walk off a short plank? When I first started a few months back thats what I did, but recently I fended off a 64 per wave horde on day 126, WITHOUT a cheese base. git gud scrub..