PC Open Letter to TFP's...

[Roland]

Nobody has yet to address why the pimps are so focused on crushing every option.

Quite simple. Your presumption is wrong. Nobody has seen fit yet to talk about a nonexistent issue.

That's part of the fun for most people, to come up with a solution, use it, and feel that little kick..

And others are happy to let Vedui do it and then copy...

At this point it is just literally a (tower) defense game, with a few sprinkles of exploration, and crafting..

I never played minecraft, but this to me seems like the grown up version of that.

So why make it so restricted on what you can do?

Takes a lot of the fun out of it.

This same exact line is mentioned at the start of every major update and yet by the end there are so many options that have been learned. Some of those are abject exploits but many are legitimate strategies. If you feel like there are only a very few options and strategies then experiment for new solutions like you claim to enjoy or just wait and then copy those who figure out new strategies like you gleefully demonstrated. 

By the way, in reality there are also special rules on the seventh day:  In most countries you can't shop on sunday because the shops are closed. Is it unfair? Unbalanced? 

When we're talking about Chick-fil-a, it definitely feels unfair...

 

[Demandred1957]

Quite simple. Your presumption is wrong. Nobody has seen fit yet to talk about a nonexistent issue.

And others are happy to let Vedui do it and then copy...

This same exact line is mentioned at the start of every major update and yet by the end there are so many options that have been learned. Some of those are abject exploits but many are legitimate strategies. If you feel like there are only a very few options and strategies then experiment for new solutions like you claim to enjoy or just wait and then copy those who figure out new strategies like you gleefully demonstrated. 

Your presumption that nobody is talking about a "nonexistent issue" is dead wrong. People even on my tiny channel talk about how the scope of the game has been narrowed down so much.

Who said anything about copying Vedui?

Personally, I wasn't going to use the solution he came up with except to make a one off video about the subject. He just beat me to it with a much cleaner, and frankly better solution.

And frankly, it takes all the fun out of trying to come up with a new strategy, since as soon as you do it seems, it is going to get patched out..

Like I said, who cares if a player uses a exploit?

The people who do it enjoy it for a while, then get bored and move on.

The people who don't use exploits will tend to enjoy the game longer..

There seems to be absolutely no reason to be so heavy handed. The base and strategy "exploits" do not effect pvp play as far as I can tell.

If there was some penalty to the pimps, like bethesda's online gaming system, where people were getting a real world money/goods exchange for using exploits, I could understand why they would be so adamant about squelching that behavior.

The only people who are getting hurt by exploits are the people who use them.

 

[RestInPieces]

Like I said, who cares if a player uses a exploit?

...

The only people who are getting hurt by exploits are the people who use them.

Well, people will sometimes jump to a fancy "solution" without any regard of how they might hurt their own gameplay experience in the long-term.

Since pretty much every game developer ever tends to fix any exploits, they must know better, no?

 

[katarynna]

You seem to be under the impression that the fun pimps are trying to defeat the players' creativity.

The way i see it is that the players come up with the idea to use things in ways tfp never thought of. When they added wedges and wedge tips, they didn't anticipate pyramid bases so they had not programmed the ai to deal with them. Someone found the pyramid "exploit" in which the ai thought they could climb the pyramid even though they couldn't, so they would endlessly attempt to run up the pyramid without doing damage to anything or anyone. That highlighted a lack in the ai, which tfp have now fixed.

The idea wasn't "screw those pyramid-building guys, we'll crush them". It was "wow, never thought of that. let's fix the bug in the ai".

As for vehicles and driving away from the horde, tfp's design goal is that there is no 100% safety on horde night except for paying a hefty fee to stay at the trader compound (once that is implemented). The same kind of complaints you have now about vehicles were blowing up the forums when they added digging to remove the 100% safety that an underground bunker gave. 

While there are still exploits that are not fixed, i am sure many more will be addressed before gold. Not because TFP are trying to defeat the players' creativity but because they exist due to bugs or unintended behavior on the part of the ai. And a 100% safe way of avoiding the horde is not intended, except by sleeping next to trader rekt or turning off the horde.

 

[RestInPieces]

You seem to be under the impression that the fun pimps are trying to defeat the players' creativity.

...

As for vehicles and driving away from the horde, tfp's design goal is that there is no 100% safety on horde night except for paying a hefty fee to stay at the trader compound (once that is implemented). The same kind of complaints you have now about vehicles were blowing up the forums when they added digging to remove the 100% safety that an underground bunker gave. 

Yes. By not having 100% safety on horde night, they do not defeat the players' creativity -- on the contrary -- they spark it, because they present the player with a problem that didn't really exist before. So the whole creativity killing thing is a fallacy.

 

[Laz Man]

Your presumption that nobody is talking about a "nonexistent issue" is dead wrong. People even on my tiny channel talk about how the scope of the game has been narrowed down so much.

Who said anything about copying Vedui?

Personally, I wasn't going to use the solution he came up with except to make a one off video about the subject. He just beat me to it with a much cleaner, and frankly better solution.

And frankly, it takes all the fun out of trying to come up with a new strategy, since as soon as you do it seems, it is going to get patched out..

Like I said, who cares if a player uses a exploit?

The people who do it enjoy it for a while, then get bored and move on.

The people who don't use exploits will tend to enjoy the game longer..

There seems to be absolutely no reason to be so heavy handed. The base and strategy "exploits" do not effect pvp play as far as I can tell.

If there was some penalty to the pimps, like bethesda's online gaming system, where people were getting a real world money/goods exchange for using exploits, I could understand why they would be so adamant about squelching that behavior.

The only people who are getting hurt by exploits are the people who use them.

If its not fun for you then stop playing EA games.  Imagine if Warner Brothers did early access for the board game Monopoly and players found a way to go around the board twice as fast...or found a way to never go to jail that was not intended in their design.  I am pretty sure Warner Brothers would have changed the rules to prevent the unintended results...

The change might kill "your fun" but it is what it is and you have to adapt or move on...

 

[Roland]

Since no link was provided here is what is being referred to as Vedui's solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuWpbwmOmCg

Personally, I think that base is very cool and only borderline exploity if at all. The amount of effort needed to build that particular base without using creative menu is pretty significant as well as coming up with the idea in the first place. Did @Vedui figure it out immediately or did he experiment until he figured out the optimal way to do it and then showed the final version in his video?  IF so, that is a lot of gameplay fun for Vedui and for anyone else who decides to figure it out on their own.

I really doubt the devs, @faatal in particular, would blink an eye that someone fashioned up a vulture grinder using known properties of blocks, traps, and behavior and which can only be built after some significant progression into the game by the player.

Once again, the developers are usually just focused on getting the enemies to behave in the manner they want them to behave and to fix them when their expected behavior is malfunctioning. Vultures have progressively gotten more and more aggressive vs vehicles ever since they were introduced so their A19 bloodmoon behavior is not exactly new-- it is just the most intense and aggressive they have been up to now. @faatal did not state in his changelog that he successfully stopped players from being safe at the top of pyramid bases. He stated that zombies now properly walk on those slopes and attack those blocks.

Being able to create automated mob grinders has been a tradition since Minecraft and I suspect that they will always be possible in games such as these and I doubt that the devs are actively seeking to make them impossible.

Your presumption that nobody is talking about a "nonexistent issue" is dead wrong. People even on my tiny channel talk about how the scope of the game has been narrowed down so much.

The nonexistent issue is your assumption that the developers are at war with the players and trying to crush creativity. You are the one who said nobody is addressing it.

That you and your audience all think the scope has narrowed and there is less creativity is a classic example of groupthink. Just look at what Vedui came up with. That was hugely creative and really only even possible as of A18 and only lucrative as of A19...

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I don't understand why you guys keep calling it a solution.
I guess it would be a solution if the problem discussed was that nobody can find bones... but it isn't.
How does harvesting some vultures affect getting away on a vehicle during the BM? If you are busy using your vehicle to harvest vultures, you can't use it to get away. If your base becomes overwhelmed, you will probably have less of a chance surviving because you weren't paying attention.
 
I'm sure there will be people who see vulture harvesting as another exploit. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but the impact of this affecting a tiny aspect of the game (getting bones) does not compare to the impact of letting people bypass the main game loop.
 
To extend my predictions:
TFP reduces the amount of bones and rotten meat from radiated vultures. People get mad about it because they liked doing it and say, "stop forcing me to play the way you want me to" and "who cares how I enjoy playing the game?.. if you have a problem with harvesting vultures then just don't do it".
Nobody can deny it. It will be said. It's probably been said about other things already in this very thread.

 

[Ralathar44]

The nonexistent issue is your assumption that the developers are at war with the players and trying to crush creativity. You are the one who said nobody is addressing it.

That you and your audience all think the scope has narrowed and there is less creativity is a classic example of groupthink. Just look at what Vedui came up with. That was hugely creative and really only even possible as of A18 and only lucrative as of A19...

I cannot even remember how many times people have said bunker bases are dead past A17 and new smarter zombies and that TFP had killed base design creativity .  I'm not a very active youtuber but I made 7DTD videos to help people learn how to deal with new zombie AI and showcase viable base designs that ran counter to popular narratives.  I just want people to have fun and have a better time with the game so showing them directly that it could be done opens doors for them to experiment more and stress less again.

 

[Roland]

I don't understand why you guys keep calling it a solution.

Solution is probably the wrong word. Answer is probably the more accurate one. That base is Vedui's answer to the A19 bloodmoon change. You're right that his base doesn't make riding around on a vehicle possible so it isn't a solution to that but it uses the new behavior to create an interesting grinder which is a new answer for how to spend horde night possibly as a replacement for riding around. (But probably not for the first 4-6 horde nights for most normal non-speedy players)

 

[FileMachete]

Even though I'm a strong proponent of freedom, even choas in games, I'm an even bigger fan of "Adapt and Overcome". So here's a tale..

Many moons ago in basic training we would find ourselves in formation for long periods of time waiting for our turn while other platoons went through the torture of turning in their "not clean, do it again!" weapons.

Standing out in the hot sun on the asphalt was no joy but the real pita was one particular Drill Sergeant who thought it funny to randomly toss a dummy grenade into various formations. At which point everyone was supposed to yell out "Grenade!", scatter a couple steps then throw themselves down with feet towards the blast. This was painful. We did not appreciate the 'training' he was providing.

After this had gone on for a few days I proposed to my platoon that we try a different approach. We all agreed and eagerly waited for our chance to implement the plan. We didn't have to wait long. During the next days weapons turn in we all covertly kept an eye out for Sergeant Red.

Then it happened, he threw his grenade into our platoon! At which point,

We all yelled "Grenade!" ran -to- the grenade, threw ourselves on top of it and started yelling things like, "I'll save you!", "Tell Ma I loved her!", "Get em for me boys!"

Sergeant Red damn near killed himself laughing. And the only time he ever threw the grenade into our platoon again was to give other DIs a laugh.

Every problem is an opportunity. Here endith the lesson.

 

[Demandred1957]

You seem to be under the impression that the fun pimps are trying to defeat the players' creativity

At this point honestly yeah, hard for me to see it any other way. You are down to a variation of some kinda tower defense to be safe, things that work well get patched out, zombies can now do many more things that the player can't, even if you should be able to.. Try walking across a slippery slope..

So why even bother being creative?

Seems obvious that you are only meant to play one way..

Well, people will sometimes jump to a fancy "solution" without any regard of how they might hurt their own gameplay experience in the long-term.

Since pretty much every game developer ever tends to fix any exploits, they must know better, no?

Then they can start a new save and start over without exploits no?

If its not fun for you then stop playing EA games.  Imagine if Warner Brothers did early access for the board game Monopoly and players found a way to go around the board twice as fast...or found a way to never go to jail that was not intended in their design.  I am pretty sure Warner Brothers would have changed the rules to prevent the unintended results...

The change might kill "your fun" but it is what it is and you have to adapt or move on...

So tfp are part of EA games??

And as a paying customer no, I don't just have to adapt or move on..

I can express my displeasure on how the "experimental" build is going in hopes that maybe they will consider my viewpoint.

That's the point of a experimental build.

 

[Demandred1957]

Personally, I think that base is very cool and only borderline exploity if at all.

Really??? Even I think that's a cheese sandwich.

Exploiting blocks to force pathing..check

Exploiting AI situational behavior to get a unintended result.. check

Will be curious to see how long that lasts before being patched, especially with all the attention it just drew.

And call it group think if you like.

Seems like there is quite a bit of that going on here as well.

Because I assure you, not everybody thinks a unavoidable horde, where you are painted into a proverbial corner, is the way the game should be played.

The nonexistent issue is your assumption that the developers are at war with the players and trying to crush creativity.

Well it seems to be a pretty solid assumption honestly.

Even though I'm a strong proponent of freedom, even choas in games, I'm an even bigger fan of "Adapt and Overcome". So here's a tale..

Many moons ago in basic training we would find ourselves in formation for long periods of time waiting for our turn while other platoons went through the torture of turning in their "not clean, do it again!" weapons.

Standing out in the hot sun on the asphalt was no joy but the real pita was one particular Drill Sergeant who thought it funny to randomly toss a dummy grenade into various formations. At which point everyone was supposed to yell out "Grenade!", scatter a couple steps then throw themselves down with feet towards the blast. This was painful. We did not appreciate the 'training' he was providing.

After this had gone on for a few days I proposed to my platoon that we try a different approach. We all agreed and eagerly waited for our chance to implement the plan. We didn't have to wait long. During the next days weapons turn in we all covertly kept an eye out for Sergeant Red.

Then it happened, he threw his grenade into our platoon! At which point,

We all yelled "Grenade!" ran -to- the grenade, threw ourselves on top of it and started yelling things like, "I'll save you!", "Tell Ma I loved her!", "Get em for me boys!"

Sergeant Red damn near killed himself laughing. And the only time he ever threw the grenade into our platoon again was to give other DIs a laugh.

Every problem is an opportunity. Here endith the lesson.

Well I really wish you would come up with a solution to the pimps grenades then.

 

[katarynna]

At this point honestly yeah, hard for me to see it any other way. You are down to a variation of some kinda tower defense to be safe

You are aware that this game is marketed as having tower defense elements? The horde night IS the tower defense elements. So yeah, you are SUPPOSED to do a variation of tower defense for the tower defense part of the game. Or else turn off hordes or mod it.

 

[JCrook1028]

Because he is a nice guy, and doesn't want to piss off the pimps and lose his streamer privileges.

That's not how the streamer program works... It's strictly a numbers game. Have enough viewers, post a video saying you are going to join the team and you're in. Whether you're a "nice guy" or not has no bearing on it. Feel free to continue making stuff up tho, it really helps make your point... not.

Nobody has yet to address why the pimps are so focused on crushing every option.

Wrong again. Almost everyone replying to you has addressed that. They are "crushing every option" because they want you to have to fight the horde. Period. End of story. Asked and answered, again.

 

[JCrook1028]

So tfp are part of EA games??

Early access in this case so yes, TFP is an EA game...

 

[Laz Man]

Well I really wish you would come up with a solution to the pimps grenades then.

I think the moral of the story is for "You" to come up with a solution LOL...

I can express my displeasure on how the "experimental" build is going in hopes that maybe they will consider my viewpoint.

That's the point of a experimental build.

Which you have already have accomplished.  Doesn't mean they have to agree with you nor do others.  All of your questions of "Why" have been answered by numerous people.  You don't have to agree with anyone here as well but asking the same questions over and over again doesn't mean its going to change the answer.

 

[FileMachete]

Well I really wish you would come up with a solution to the pimps grenades then.

Not intending to sound Yoda-ish but you're the only one who truly can answer that.

That said, as kat mentioned there are mods or horde options. Neither of which may suit you.

Were this to become a bother to me my first pass would likely be setting up a bunch of traps/turrets along a road and just see how a moveable murder fest felt. Might be entertaining, but again likely wouldn't work for you.

Reality is that the phrase, "Adapt and Overcome" would be more honestly worded as, "Adapt, and or Overcome" but that ain't as catchy.

In this instance to Overcome will likely require using a mod or no-horde option. And may well not be a satisfactory solution for you.

And Adapting by not driving on horde nights is contrary to your position.

I don't presume to know you, and I don't mean this to be condescending (and your maturity in your reply to my post bodes well that you won't take this the wrong way), but might the opportunity here be for reflection on why this windmill is the one you're tilting at?

As a disciple of Don Quixote myself I know how easy it is to let something become consuming. Heck I've taken on two windmills that taunted me here just in the last couple of weeks.

Simply put, best thing I can offer are the immortal words of Monty Python,

https://youtu.be/SJUhlRoBL8M?t=23

And for what it's worth I also think the Pimps windmill is players avoiding horde night. :biggrin1:

 

[Ralathar44]

This same exact line is mentioned at the start of every major update and yet by the end there are so many options that have been learned. Some of those are abject exploits but many are legitimate strategies. If you feel like there are only a very few options and strategies then experiment for new solutions like you claim to enjoy or just wait and then copy those who figure out new strategies like you gleefully demonstrated. 

Heck, I came out of youtube retirement because people freaked out about A17 so much.  First nobody understood and then I made AI videos demonstrating their pathing by using mazing and spikes and etc.  Then people started yelling "only mazing bases work, you have to maze!!" so I made no frills thick walls bunker bases to show them that bunker bases were still viable.

People freak out way too easily and give up before even trying to adapt because they feed off of each other freaking out and so just accept their own untested theories as reality.  Then once they've dug in now they are emotionally invested in "how things are" until such time as direct proof comes out showing that they are 100% wrong.  But, if it's not direct easily seeable proof and there is wiggle room to be subjective people will agrue something to their grave even if you have databases of metrics showing they are wrong.

 

[FileMachete]

Then once they've dug in now they are emotionally invested in "how things are" until such time as direct proof comes out showing that they are 100% wrong.  But, if it's not direct easily seeable proof and there is wiggle room to be subjective people will agrue something to their grave even if you have databases of metrics showing they are wrong.

welp, that explains the mask debate then, not enough peeps carry microscopes to see the virus :biggrin1:

(sry @Roland, I'll see myself out now...)