PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Jost Amman]

Of course it is. I just take always being right in the end very seriously.

Now, this keycard system TFP have proposed. Can you think of any flaws in it?

Keycards would be kind of immersion breaking.

Why can I break down literally everything in the game and then inside (mission) POIs I'm not able to bypass doors just by tearing down the walls?

IMO they should find a more natural/coherent way to avoid loot cheating.

The best way would be the one someone mentioned, to have a few random places for each POI where the loot room can spawn.

 

[Drithyl]

I'd say the exact opposite. taking the club shown as example. Why is there cloth wrapped around the club before any mods are added? Why would you make a melee weapon SOFT by adding cloth. It is absolutely counter productive to remove hardness from a blunt melee weapon. It's a tree branch for heaven's sake, it does not need cloth to hold it together. It makes me almost as crazy as their newest fad of wrapping some cloth loosely around the grip of almost every gun in the game. All that does is make for something to loosen up and not allow you to get a firm grip on the weapon, leading to inaccuracy. C'mon, we all know how fast that piece of leather tied on with a string would get loose and fall off, a magazine or two. We can forge metal and even make glue but we tie grips on our gun with a string? Urgh it just looks awful.

There's a perfectly practical and logical explanation for the cloth wrapped around the club.

For one, it does not make it soft. If you notice, the cloth clearly goes in-between the spiky protrusions of the club, not over them. Those are what are going to be hitting the enemy and inflicting the most damage.

For two, wood tends to splinter and break when smashed against hard things. The cloth tightly wrapped around the whole shape *does* help keep it together after a few hits. In fact, I'd argue that it makes it hit harder by making the wood less flexible and more firm. Think of duct tape. It's not particularly hard or hurtful, but if you tightly wrap something in duct tape, not only it gives it more durability, it also makes it hit harder.

 

[khzmusik]

I just literally said that this needn't apply inside your base perimeter.

Just place a bedroll or LCB and you can nerd-pole all you want inside that area. 

There are a huge number of players (myself included) that like to build outside of areas protected by LCBs or bedrolls. This would piss off every single one of those players. (Again, myself included.)

 

[STyK_]

Oh, so taking over POI's and fortifying them is now impossible under this mechanic, eh? I can see a lot of flame coming from this...

How about a structure block (think of something similar to a landclaim block, but not in function) placed near the top of each vertical POI that prevents players from nerdpoling, and you have to get to it to destroy it. This would prevent nerdpoling, and if you wanted to colonize that POI, nothing is affected.

put the 'landclaim block' in the key card protected loot room

 

[Jost Amman]

There are a huge number of players (myself included) that like to build outside of areas protected by LCBs or bedrolls. This would piss off every single one of those players. (Again, myself included.)

We're only talking about POIs and then only about nerd poling.

You could still build whatever you like with that kind of mechanic in place.

Also, as I see it, inside those anti-nerdpoling areas you should still be allowed to place one wood frame at a time, so that you can still build and upgrade blocks normally.

That's one thing, and your argument is perfectly valid (at the same time though, there's plenty of things in 7D2D to lose your immersion over), but I was thinking more along the lines of mechanics vs personal experience. (Ex. what happens if the keycard is lost or destroyed?)

That would need to be discussed on a case by case basis.

 

[khzmusik]

Keycards would be kind of immersion breaking.

Why can I break down literally everything in the game and then inside (mission) POIs I'm not able to bypass doors just by tearing down the walls?

IMO they should find a more natural/coherent way to avoid loot cheating.

The best way would be the one someone mentioned, to have a few random places for each POI where the loot room can spawn.

Possible addendum to my previous post (depending upon the forum software...)

I would assume that the doors would be breakable but have a huge amount of hit points. Meaning - you could just break down the door to get the loot, but it would take so long, that it would be just as fast/convenient to just go through the POI as intended.

The "random loot room" idea is also good but probably much harder to implement. If I'm wrong and it's as easy for TFP to do as one-way doors or keys, then I'm all for it.

What I'm not all for, is removing nerd poling - an incredibly useful thing to have for multiple reasons - just because some folks think it's an easy solution to an unrelated problem (going directly to loot in POIs). Especially since it's a problem that plenty of players don't really care about one way or the other.

 

[GoldenFox]

And that brings me to my point: imagine building without nerd poling. Seriously, it would be a clunky and frustrating mess, imo. Imagine having to get up high, building pillars everywhere, and then having to attack ladders to them, or building wooden ramps everywhere that you would have to destroy later on. As another example, imagine Minecraft without nerdpoling. Wouldn't work out well, wouldn't it?

yeah that's what im talking about, i mean if some people think is way too easy or "unrealistic" -in a zombie game- lol they can mod those changes, or edit the xml, no need to force that on everyone just because they want it to be changed. again the game has been growing with it for 7 years now, no need to change that mechanic just when the game is nearly finished.

i dont support that, hek, even if they are implementing that, should do that in the next game.

 

[khzmusik]

Also, as I see it, inside those anti-nerdpoling areas you should still be allowed to place one wood frame at a time, so that you can still build and upgrade blocks normally.

(Again, possibly appended to my previous comment)

So, inside the anti-nerd-poling areas, you can still place ladders? Or place wooden frames in a stair-step pattern against walls?

If so, you've solved nothing, since both of those techniques are just as effective as nerd-poling to get to loot rooms. If not - then you basically can't build inside those areas.

 

[Jost Amman]

Possible addendum to my previous post (depending upon the forum software...)

I would assume that the doors would be breakable but have a huge amount of hit points. Meaning - you could just break down the door to get the loot, but it would take so long, that it would be just as fast/convenient to just go through the POI as intended.

The "random loot room" idea is also good but probably much harder to implement. If I'm wrong and it's as easy for TFP to do as one-way doors or keys, then I'm all for it.

What I'm not all for, is removing nerd poling - an incredibly useful thing to have for multiple reasons - just because some folks think it's an easy solution to an unrelated problem (going directly to loot in POIs). Especially since it's a problem that plenty of players don't really care about one way or the other.

You see, I'd agree on the walls/doors with a "huge amount of points" thing, but the problem is it's a shoehorned solution IMO.

If you need to have "special walls" or "special doors" to solve this problem, then that's probably not the best solution.

As for the nerd-poling thing I'm just discussing it for the sake of it, I'm not in favor nor against removing it.

It depends on how it all relates, as you said, to solving the other problem.

We could also say that skipping dungeon POIs to immediately get the loot is fine since what's fun for the player it's always ok... and be done with it. *shrugs*

 

[GoldenFox]

let the people play the game the way they want to, not the way you think its the correct one

dont like people doing nerd poling? change servers, host your own server and go full anti nerd poling there, or play single player.

 

[Jost Amman]

let the people play the game the way they want to, not the way you think its the correct one

dont like people doing nerd poling? change servers, host your own server and go full anti nerd poling there, or play single player.

Who are you talking to??

I'm not the one against nerd-poling, it was The Fun Pimps idea... and they can't just change server lol

Not as effective since increased time and resources are two factors to consider. Not saying I agree with it, but your argument is mildly flawed.

^this^

 

[Damocles]

Make the POI contain "key code" notes along it "dungeon" path.

The Loot room then has key-code locked containers. Or a key code locked vault door to it.

Now the player can decide to get to the loot room quickly, but must break open the locks.

Or get instant access with the picked up notes. (entering the code can be an automatic action)

This mechanic should be quite easy to implement, and solves the problem of direct access to the "final" loot.

 

[khzmusik]

As for the nerd-poling thing I'm just discussing it for the sake of it, I'm not in favor nor against removing it.

It depends on how it all relates, as you said, to solving the other problem.

Well, that was really my only point. It's a solution to a problem that is, in reality, unrelated to nerd-poling.

TFP have already talked about other ways to solve this problem that have nothing to do with nerd-poling. Their solutions are, again IMHO, not only better at solving the problem - they also open up a whole world of other possibilities.

(As an aside... I know we're not supposed to mention the M-word here. But you can already modify the game to eliminate nerd-poling by requiring players to have their feet on the ground when placing blocks. Just do a search in the relevant forum section. I've actually played with those modifications - and found them to be nothing but frustrating and pointless. So when I say TFP solutions are better, I'm speaking from my own experience.)

 

[GoldenFox]

Who are you talking to??

I'm not the one against nerd-poling, it was The Fun Pimps idea... and they can't just change server lol

^this^

lol not to you, i know you are good with that, im talking to anyone who want to force a big game change on everyone when there is no reason to.

if they feel so annoyed because alot of players feel more comfortable building frames they just can hop into another server, or host their own and make their rules, or play single player instead.

there is no need to change the thing because is not realistic, or because people obtain loot faster who cares? its the way people play the game. also mad mole said that hes all about saving time and resources, and if people feel like rushing and looting by placing a lot of frames, its just a way of playing the game.

in my opinion making a zombie hold the key, or hiding the key somewhere makes looting more tedious, and when you're short on food, water, or hitpoints, becomes an annoyance, turns looting and or exploring into a job rather than making it quick and easy

 

[STyK_]

You see, I'd agree on the walls/doors with a "huge amount of points" thing, but the problem is it's a shoehorned solution IMO.

If you need to have "special walls" or "special doors" to solve this problem, then that's probably not the best solution.

As for the nerd-poling thing I'm just discussing it for the sake of it, I'm not in favor nor against removing it.

It depends on how it all relates, as you said, to solving the other problem.

We could also say that skipping dungeon POIs to immediately get the loot is fine since what's fun for the player it's always ok... and be done with it. *shrugs*

You see, I'd agree on the walls/doors with a "huge amount of points" thing, but the problem is it's a shoehorned solution IMO.

If you need to have "special walls" or "special doors" to solve this problem, then that's probably not the best solution.

As for the nerd-poling thing I'm just discussing it for the sake of it, I'm not in favor nor against removing it.

It depends on how it all relates, as you said, to solving the other problem.

We could also say that skipping dungeon POIs to immediately get the loot is fine since what's fun for the player it's always ok... and be done with it. *shrugs*

I play a lot of survival games and often I come across situations where you have what that the developers vision for the game is and then the players get ahold of it and twist it and its comes out as something else.

Forgive me for bringing up another game. 'Atlas' the devs made it so you could go to a special server and do a raid against monsters and get special stuff from there. You can tell the devs wanted this so be something you build up to with your clan, get geared out, use tactics to kill the monsters on the beach with your boats, cooperate. Instead it was just a giant meme, everyone just ran naked and weaponless, why waste the gear was the idea when you can just spoof it.
That's how I see nerd poling being used, its a mechanic that's been twisted to use outside the developers vison.

 

[Jost Amman]

TFP have already talked about other ways to solve this problem that have nothing to do with nerd-poling. Their solutions are, again IMHO, not only better at solving the problem - they also open up a whole world of other possibilities.

Just for your info... IIRC anti nerd-poling was also mentioned by Richard in one of the streams.

It was one of the options they were considering though, to be honest, I don't know if it was at the top of their list or at the bottom.

Make the POI contain "key code" notes along it "dungeon" path.

The Loot room then has key-code locked containers. Or a key code locked vault door to it.

Now the player can decide to get to the loot room quickly, but must break open the locks.

Or get instant access with the picked up notes. (entering the code can be an automatic action)

This mechanic should be quite easy to implement, and solves the problem of direct access to the "final" loot.

I like this idea better.

Protecting loot with a heavily reinforced chest/safe is much easier and natural than building special rooms with heavily reinforced walls in places where they make no sense.

 

[khzmusik]

Just for your info... IIRC anti nerd-poling was also mentioned by Richard in one of the streams.

It was one of the options they were considering though, to be honest, I don't know if it was at the top of their list or at the bottom.

I remember, but his solutions had nothing to do with anti-nerd-poling. He specifically mentioned one-way doors and randomly-spawning keys. (EDIT: Or maybe it was Nathan that mentioned them. I'm ancient and my memory is shot.)

Those are the exact solutions that I think are better than anti-nerd-poling. And, for the record, I didn't think of them, though I wish I had.

 

[Damocles]

The key codes could then also be randomly placed along the dungeon path (but easily enough to be found when there).

This also removes the ability to just quickly grab them, when knowing the layout by heart.

Its enough to have one or two final containers to be locked. The ones with the really good "goodies", to have an incentive finding the code.

 

[Jost Amman]

I remember, but his solutions had nothing to do with anti-nerd-poling. He specifically mentioned one-way doors and randomly-spawning keys.

Those are the exact solutions that I think are better than anti-nerd-poling. And, for the record, I didn't think of them, though I wish I had.

I think Damocles key-code idea is even better then... 

 

[khzmusik]

I think Damocles key-code idea is even better then... 

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what TFP were talking about with keys/key cards.

(I just went to past streams to find where this discussion occurred... but I'd have to pretty much watch all of them to find the specific answer to this. I'm not that dedicated, sorry about that.)