PC Zombie AI and Base Building

[meganoth]

That is not a maze. The castle is built on height, and there are "ramps" getting up. Chokepoints, sure.

Well, if a design like this castle works that would be heaven, right? And A17 is nearer this goal as A16 by far.

Loong mazes just with wood walls should not even work with A17e if everything worked like intended. I.e. too many spike traps or distance should eventually make the wood wall more desirable to hit for a zombie.

Also as soon as a little randomization is added to zombie behaviour you need all walls to be at least somewhat effective.

 

[Kage848]

Well, Im saying cheese exactly because its not as bad as exploiting the AI. It is a small thing, but it's still something that only works because the AI is dumb enough to not just break a hole in the maze, even if made of wood. And not zombie like dumb, since a zombie would break a wall if he hears noises behind, instead of taking a long path to them.

Dont miss understand me. I think your label of cheese is fine. I think what's cheese and what's not is subjective. I was just wondering out loud I guess lol.

 

[Kalarro]

Dont miss understand me. I think your label of cheese is fine. I think what's cheese and what's not is subjective. I was just wondering out loud I guess lol.

ofc it is

Man, I hadnt talked so much with kage since he started getting so many viewers. I feel so "important" now

 

[Kattla]

I try my best to enjoy (exploit) the current AI while it lasts.

At the moment it is easy to work with, but once they start adding more

"random" behavior, things will get complicated as far as basebuilding goes.

 

[Kalarro]

I try my best to enjoy (exploit) the current AI while it lasts.
At the moment it is easy to work with, but once they start adding more

"random" behavior, things will get complicated as far as basebuilding goes.

Well, on one side mazes will indeed work worse. On the other, walls should last longer bc not 100% of the zombies are hitting the same block.

 

[Odiousfunk]

Perfect a17 Base Build

Currently, as others have said, you need to use the zombie ai to your advantage. Right now I have an unbeatable base. I could be standing on a 10 block high single block wide concrete pole and as long as there is a stairway 5 blocks away 8 blocks high, they will continue to run up the stairs and jump off... repeat until I care to kill them. In a17, xp and levels are critical, why let traps take your xp. Obviously with a better tower you can handle anything that comes your way and this may change as TFP adjusts the AI, but for A17... this is bomb proof. Good luck.

 

[Kattla]

Ahhh ic. Lots of changes. I love the lowered damage to traps. Blade traps are kinda a waste of time. Break way to easy and hella expensive to keep working. Xp and resources suckers lol.

In my current base defense i have 4 blade traps, each in the middle of a U turn to maximize the time

zombies spend in each trap. The 3 first traps are set at headhight, the last one is leg height. There are

also one electric fence before an after the blade trap path.

Above each trap i placed an arrow slit, so i can repair from above during battle. Also above the

"path" i made a solid box, so cops will not see me. All i have to do on horde nights are repairing the

first and second blade traps. On none horde nights, i can focus on other stuff, like what paint to use

and such.

My path is

EF - BT(hi) - BT(hi) - BT(hi) - BT(lo) - EF+Barbed wire - Open path to me.

Powered by a battery bank and solar power, and triggered by a motion sensor which

will run it for 1 minute upon triggering.

day 21 horde - Did ok.

day 28 horde - NOT ONE SINGLE BLOCK apart from the traps took damage.

day 35 horde - Tried a low placed blade trap first, and had cops spitting at me.

day 42 horde - Should be fine, i removed the low blade trap at the start.

Everyday/night - I may hear the blade traps spin up now and then, to deal with a screamer

or roaming horde. Nothing to worry about.

edit: Or in other words, basicly a safe AFK base unless it's horde time.

 

[Kattla]

My horde room. I know, i have turrets, but it's not in use. It used to try and shoot

through the wall, so i unlocked the ammo. I love that tracking sound it makes.

Point is, however, that by using the current AI, and blade traps, i can build my home

any way i want, be it a castle, skyscraper, pyramid etc, and focus on that, instead

of the good old "box with spikes around".

So there are benefits too with this new AI, not just bad things.

 

[Kalen]

This would mean defenders would need to not just shoot randomly into the horde but attack those zombies that present the biggest danger to your defense. With the proper balancing that would be just great.

I remember lots of A16.4 games with my co-op group where I was for example standing behind some bars and mindlessly attacking any zombie standing in front of me. No tactic, just do as much damage as you possible. Whack whack whack for in-game hours.

This is the biggest problem I can see with trying to balance base defense. What might be a fun and challenging base defense for a group of players would probably be a nightmare for a solo player. Maybe the AI could become smarter or dumber based on the number of players?

 

[Shin]

Sure, but that again - is balancing. That takes more time.
Fataal got the zombie AI working, meaning they are capable of pathing, finding the player, and destroying blocks.

Making an AI dumber is the easiest thing you can possibly do.

And no, they have not gotten super strong vs blocks. They became capable of hitting them. Major difference.

The thing is that they are not that smart. I played in RGW and for hordnight I climbed on top of the highest (about 15-20 blocks) Concrete/Flagstone ruin. Made a small platform with a wood hut and wood frames around to shoot down. To my surprise all the zeds attacked the building next to mine (6 blocks high) so I could easily snipe them one by one. So saying the AI works is wrong im sad to say.

There was no way for them to get to me from the building they attacked. Right now I'm sitting out 14 day horde on a similar building. It-.s 2.20 and all is now quiet.

To me this update is really boring due to the endless grind and the constant lack of stamina. And getting a wandering horde of about 25 zeds 2 hours before hord night just sucks... All you can do early game is to kill all you see. No chance in hell to get even a semi decent base up even for day 21/28. The tools sucks and the upgrades are hidden behind lvls. If I wanted a shooter game I wouldnt chose this for sure.

I'll hang in there and try different things until stable comes, then we'll see...

 

[fazi]

Only issue is when they add randomness a lot of strategy is going to go out the window. Then we are just back to walls. Now i dont love the idea of mazes. But chokepoints are awesome. And if we lose them in going to be bummed.

Kage, i watch and enjoy your videos, but i think you need to do more research / experiments. In a17 B208 , i've build a classical pillar base, with multiple layers, 2 floors for defense and then my stuff.In time you add blade traps/dart/turrets. It was very fun.I had no time to complete it on experimental but i will once the game goes stable. You basically defend the first layer until hey get in, then move to the second layer, a lot of adrenaline.Also i made the first floor roof from bars so you can shot from above in case they break all the defenses on the first floor. If you do you put enough suports, you wont have Si problems.

Maze means exploiting Ai.

 

[Zourin]

From a single-player perspective, it's kinda really important to manage BM hordes in a controlled way.

Before A17, you needed a full 360 degree defense setup, because you had zero control over which section of a perimeter they were going to hit. Other than avoidance strategies, there were only two 'aggressive' setups. A small (10x10 or less) 'suicide box' built with half-pillars or bars to quickly prioritize targets and keep repairs within reach; or a perimeter wall heavily defended with trunk tips to deal with random strays and stragglers split from the main group.

In A17, It isn't 'easier' to herd them into a focused defense zone, doing it SAFELY requires a few very specific tricks. One wrong block placed or destroyed can cause dramatic changes to the AI's choices, and usually unexpected catastrophic effects to a defensive plan where there's already no room for error. The only reasonably safe option right now in SP is the 'drop loop' setup, as I've not found anything that doesn't resort to the tried, true, and last-ditch 'stay above them and shoot down' tactics.

I don't like Drop-Loop, but there's so little sustainable damage options that a Solo ends up having to juggle 5-6 live zombies while the 2-3 dead ones get replaced, and that basically equates to sustained wall damage and perimeter breaches. I've tried pit-traps, but the hordes, when entering only 8 at a time, basically expend the traps faster than it can kill or soften zombies. It's also insanely expensive to maintain at 20 wood a trap when you have to replace 100 wood spike traps after only killing half a horde (at best). Iron isn't 'cheaper' by any stretch.

 

[Grue]

Personally Gazz, I think they're a little too smart - I'm sort of hoping that when A18 and Bandits hit, the Bandits have the current AI (or an even better one), and Zombies have a more pre-A17-like "dumb" AI.
I think Zombies should, more or less, walk blindly into static defenses, and it should the Bandits that you really have to worry about finding that one chink in the armor that lets them into your base.

Yes, this is a good idea.

 

[Ghostlight]

Currently, as others have said, you need to use the zombie ai to your advantage.

Nitpick: We have devised a new base design that does not exploit the AI* and is absolutely rocking gamestage 300+ hordes. I am not prepared to describe it though as TFP will likely change the AI to make it non-viable, but such bases do exist in A17. I refuse to exploit the crap AI in A17.

* My yardstick for determining whether you are exploiting the A17 AI in your base design is whether the exact same base would also work in A16. All these infinite ramp/stairs loop bases for example, would be torn to pieces in A16.

 

[Colin248]

honestly base building these days reminds me of the good old days from back in the early alphas. set up a kill zone or kill box at the main entryway of your base, with a way you can get in effectively. or go through your own gauntlet. il get some screepcaps of my current base set up, but honestly, there is no reason to exploit the AI. just make a base but keep it logical. hell even a castle can work.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

honestly base building these days reminds me of the good old days from back in the early alphas. set up a kill zone or kill box at the main entryway of your base, with a way you can get in effectively. or go through your own gauntlet. il get some screepcaps of my current base set up, but honestly, there is no reason to exploit the AI. just make a base but keep it logical. hell even a castle can work.

The problem is only that if i stand on Heigh 245 in my living room i simply dont thrust anymore the SI and that no standart zombie destroy my tower. But for this we have mods

 

[RipClaw]

il get some screepcaps of my current base set up, but honestly, there is no reason to exploit the AI. just make a base but keep it logical. hell even a castle can work.

How exactly do you define "exploiting the AI"?

Even a castle is not just a few strong walls. The architecture is based on strategic considerations which of course includes the behaviour of enemy troops.

Of course you can ignore all you know about the zombies and just put up a lot of spikes and try to defend yourself with pure firepower but that doesn't work in the long run.