PC You have voxels, SO USE THEM!

I agree with pretty much all of this thread. Caves were amazing and a complete aspect of the game on its own. We spent hours scaffolding weird tunnels and holes to get to that juicy ore. Now it's all about them boulders, no fun.

I'm enjoying the game a lot because I haven't put that many hours in it yet, but a lot has been lost because "everything needs a mathematic certainty" like Jax said. No randomness just calculations, whatever you want it's mapped out for you, and you can pick it up when you want to (or not, when it's gated). I don't see myself starting over after this playthrough, just because there's nothing that will be that different besides the location of my base and the POIs I visit.

I loved the gravel mines in A11. Unfortunately clearing all that empty space out made the game run horrible because we have no occlusion system. People above the expansive underground network of awesomeness were in an open plains field getting 20 fps with no obvious reason why. Hopefully we can see the return of the cool gravel mines or something even better. The cave system we tried was really cool but had the same problem, generation was slow and caused a lot of performance issues.
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I'm pretty sure one of the last 5 alphas you added a feature that was that exact thing, occlusion. As in, it wouldn't render if it wasn't in the line of sight of a player. Maybe it wasn't working, but you had it.

 
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Diggers are here to stay Im sure so fine then. But couldnt we do underground threats in a different way? Gases? Air? Filtration systems? Imagine if you HAD to have an air system to the surface and zombies attacked THAT.
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Then people would complain because it would require looting and perks and workbenches and wouldn't be available by day 5, so the Pimps are "destroying their playstyle".

I think deep underground bunkers would be a great end-game "safety" option (similar to having a bunch of electric fences and blade traps), but the people complaining about not being able to build underground aren't complaining because they want to spend 50 levels preparing their ultimate bunker. They want to be able to dig down to bedrock in the first week and then be completely safe from threats. If they just wanted to build a cool underground base, that option is already in the game, and if they were willing to put in the effort prepping traps they could even stay in it and ignore the blood moon zombies.

 
Then people would complain because it would require looting and perks and workbenches and wouldn't be available by day 5, so the Pimps are "destroying their playstyle".
I think deep underground bunkers would be a great end-game "safety" option (similar to having a bunch of electric fences and blade traps), but the people complaining about not being able to build underground aren't complaining because they want to spend 50 levels preparing their ultimate bunker. They want to be able to dig down to bedrock in the first week and then be completely safe from threats. If they just wanted to build a cool underground base, that option is already in the game, and if they were willing to put in the effort prepping traps they could even stay in it and ignore the blood moon zombies.
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You seem to know a lot about what other people want....

I know some types who aren't happy about digging zombies (doesn't personally bother me one way or the other), and they're on Day like 1000+ something on their 16.4 game. They were quite happy to spend time (waayyyyyy more time on a game than I would), they just would like to continue their mole-rat playstyle.

 
You seem to know a lot about what other people want....
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Because: "If they just wanted to build a cool underground base, that option is already in the game, and if they were willing to put in the effort prepping traps they could even stay in it and ignore the blood moon zombies."

The only way the underground lifestyle has been "destroyed" is that it's not trivial invulnerability anymore. Make a navigable path into your bunker and put traps along it and zombies digging is irrelevant.

 
Because: "If they just wanted to build a cool underground base, that option is already in the game, and if they were willing to put in the effort prepping traps they could even stay in it and ignore the blood moon zombies."
The only way the underground lifestyle has been "destroyed" is that it's not trivial invulnerability anymore. Make a navigable path into your bunker and put traps along it and zombies digging is irrelevant.
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Actually, that's not the case, since the BM zombies will spawn, and path to you from their spawn location. If the algorithm decides that simply tunneling through the ground is the path of least resistance, that's how they'll do it.

Still, the point I was making was, please stop, "assuming" (and yes, that is what you're doing) why other people want to be able to turn off digging zombies. Do I like underground bases? Not especially, but I know other players do, and I don't presume to know why.

 
Actually, that's not the case, since the BM zombies will spawn, and path to you from their spawn location. If the algorithm decides that simply tunneling through the ground is the path of least resistance, that's how they'll do it.
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Each dirt block is 200 HP and each stone block is 500. A navigable path could be 0 HP (if you put enough traps) and unless you're only building a few blocks below the surface a door path will basically always be the weakest point. It's the exact same way you defend an above ground base, except all that dirt and stone makes it even easier to fortify your door and still have it be the path of least resistance.

This is such a non-issue if someone actually tries to make it work rather than just complaining that the tiniest thing changed.

 
Each dirt block is 200 HP and each stone block is 500. A navigable path could be 0 HP (if you put enough traps) and unless you're only building a few blocks below the surface a door path will basically always be the weakest point. It's the exact same way you defend an above ground base, except all that dirt and stone makes it even easier to fortify your door and still have it be the path of least resistance.
This is such a non-issue if someone actually tries to make it work rather than just complaining that the tiniest thing changed.
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Sounds reasonable.... just curious if you've actually tried it?

 
Diggers are here to stay Im sure so fine then. But couldnt we do underground threats in a different way? Gases? Air? Filtration systems? Imagine if you HAD to have an air system to the surface and zombies attacked THAT. Then youd be forced to come up and defend but you can still build a viable underground hideout. Im no fan of underground hiding but whats going on now was definitely not the answer.
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Been advocating for a system like that when we got A16 Electricity. It has so many possibilities including limiting underground digging beyond X blocks. Wants to go deeper then 5 blocks, you need oxygen. How do you get Oxygen ...

* Air Bottles in your inventory. See Subnautica...

* Air locked areas. See Subnautica...

* Generators on top to have oxygen underground ( zombie magnets! So be sure to protect them! ). They can even recycle the electricity system but replace cables with pipes and have "powered/Aired" outlets that make a zone ( simply 360 bubble area for X blocks ) breathable.

Finding a rebreather can be as exiting as finding a miner helmet. So many possibilities to enhance the gameplay.

Caves:

Caves used to be something magical. Dark, gloomy, dangerous but also the first spot of safety. You can into a cave, build up some wood frames for a quick wall that first night. A touch was a life saver.

The few caves i have seen in A16/A17 are just small useless patches of nothingness.

Joy:




I think Jax got the right sentiment. 7D2D does not feel anymore like a world you want to live in. It feels like too much work non-stop zombie killing, point gathering, ... So many mechanisms got stripped out of the game or simply never introduced or altered in such a way it hurts.

* Caves gone < Nitrate, coal, your first "safe" spot

* Smell gone < That alone made your game exiting because you knew it drew in every zombie in miles.

* Complex crafting, gone in favor of even more simpler resources and crafting.

* Weapon parts gone

* Degradation / Quality of engines / parts gone.

* Map sizes smaller

* Strong enemies like the behemoth. Never introduced. We got glowsticks *sigh* and ferals *yay* for assets reusing for 2 years!

* Bandits. Never introduced.

* Electricity stalled for 16 months with nothing new.

* Sleepers supposed to make house looting exiting because you did not know if a dead body was a body or a zombie. Now everything is a zombie, with 30 zombies in a freaking house! We have gone from A15 zero zombies with some dead bodies, to A17 30 zombies in a house!

It feels like 7D2D has gone from a exiting game, where you live in ( but was just lacking in mid to late content ), to a game where you feel bored fast, stuck in a repeating slow grinding pattern. For all the fuss the developers made about spam crafting, A17 is a hundred times more boring compared to spam crafting ( what most people not even did beyond X level ).

Then people would complain because it would require looting and perks and workbenches and wouldn't be available by day 5, so the Pimps are "destroying their playstyle".
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Frankly i am tired of people making that stupid argument. Because that is what is it, stupid. I know no people that wanted steel tools by day 5 and hate the devs for blocking that. No! They hate gameplay that only focuses on gates and XP leveling to artificially limit your progression.

7D2D felt more free before, sure, you are able to rush to Steel in A15 but not everybody did that. If the devs put tool benches in as RNG books ( and the ability to reclaim existing tool benches ), fine, very few will complain but look at A15/A16 history.

First they limit workbenches. Then they introduced workbenches in the world. When the devs notice people disassembling workbenches, they also put a stop to that. Now they moved this into perks that you need to XP unlock mostly with Zombie killing. So we go from a free system to a system that is locking in multiple ways.

I have seen mod authors do a better job of limiting workbenches and other tools, that is more fun for the player then the 7D2D developers. That is the main issue...

It has all become about numbers, stats, killing and not about finding things, crafting yourself, having fun.

7D2D has become 7D2Excel !!! The developers can say what they want but a lot of changes simply feel like a betrays to the core concept that was 7D2D before A16.

 
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It's funny you mention Excel ... The spreadsheets are plentiful.
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Yea, because it feels like your spending more time thinking about your Xp, your perks points, how to unlock them, focusing on unlocking them then actually playing the game for fun. This is typical a syndrome you get with mmo type games.

 
Yea, because it feels like your spending more time thinking about your Xp, your perks points, how to unlock them, focusing on unlocking them then actually playing the game for fun. This is typical a syndrome you get with mmo type games.
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The game, Path of Exiles, is definitely a min/max'ers dream. 7D2D isn't even close to that, which is good, although having a good idea of what you want to focus on before you start playing has benefits.

 
I loved the gravel mines in A11. Unfortunately clearing all that empty space out made the game run horrible because we have no occlusion system. People above the expansive underground network of awesomeness were in an open plains field getting 20 fps with no obvious reason why. Hopefully we can see the return of the cool gravel mines or something even better. The cave system we tried was really cool but had the same problem, generation was slow and caused a lot of performance issues.
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Thanks for the feedback. Are there any plans to make this an option? I didn't have any performance problems with the cave system, so if there was a way to turn that back on for RWG I would gladly do so.

 
Thanks for the feedback. Are there any plans to make this an option? I didn't have any performance problems with the cave system, so if there was a way to turn that back on for RWG I would gladly do so.
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-Same.

I know I received a small FPS boost when they were removed but it was not worth a trade off of losing such an intricate, massive and fun part of the experience.

I would also add that we're not even at the optimization stage yet so how do we even know how poorly anything is going to run until beta? Until all the features are added and work in conjunction?

Too much is gone now and personally I would prefer going back to far simpler graphics and have massive hordes and city streets teeming with the walking dead that are weak but deadly because of numbers.

 
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I loved the gravel mines in A11. Unfortunately clearing all that empty space out made the game run horrible because we have no occlusion system. People above the expansive underground network of awesomeness were in an open plains field getting 20 fps with no obvious reason why. Hopefully we can see the return of the cool gravel mines or something even better. The cave system we tried was really cool but had the same problem, generation was slow and caused a lot of performance issues.
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I wondered why the caves hadn't made their way back yet.

Hopefully some kind of compromise can be accomplished.

Though... with digging zeds now.... not sure how much spelunking I'd want to do now.

 
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Sounds reasonable.... just curious if you've actually tried it?
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Nope, I've only defended above ground, but if I could layer all my walls with 10 blocks of stone it would sure make it easier. The only area you really need to fortify is your entrance, as everywhere else will have 5000+ HP of stone between the zombies and a walkable path so anything but the strongest door will automatically be the easy path.

 
Nope, I've only defended above ground, but if I could layer all my walls with 10 blocks of stone it would sure make it easier. The only area you really need to fortify is your entrance, as everywhere else will have 5000+ HP of stone between the zombies and a walkable path so anything but the strongest door will automatically be the easy path.
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Gotcha, so you don't really know that it will work that way. It sounds like it should work that way but it hasn't been tested.

 
Everyone seen the huge cave(?) system in snow biome, Navezgane right? I cant say more as I think its the first "Plot POI" in the game. It could be the trigger for starting the, eventual, main plot of the game.
The implications of everything in that POI area are too focused to be just a random quest POI.
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Where exactly is this? I found one cave in the snowy mountains north-east but it was just a small common cave.

 
Gotcha, so you don't really know that it will work that way. It sounds like it should work that way but it hasn't been tested.
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It's literally adding more HP to something that already works. It's like saying you don't know if your base will still work if you upgrade the walls. This isn't rocket science. If anything the AI is *too* predictable.

 
Where exactly is this? I found one cave in the snowy mountains north-east but it was just a small common cave.
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The front door is 1570N, 770E

This is the only "Game Plot" POI I have ever seen so far. You have to do some detective thinking as you observe things, but I am sure TFP are starting to work on a potentially scary story line! :)

 
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