PC Will crafting balance come in alpha 22 or is crafting dead?
- Thread starter Slingblade2040
- Start date
Yes, it's undeniable that the development team has provided a wealth of Points of Interest (POI) and a vast array of building blocks, making 7 Days to Die exceptionally rich in its construction aspect. However, the game is not limited to being solely a building game; it also encompasses RPG and survival crafting elements. Unfortunately, these two aspects are currently lacking considerably in content. While mods can certainly contribute to filling this gap to some extent, relying on mods alone isn't a sustainable approach. These elements should constitute the core content of the game and shouldn't be delegated to third-party developers. This is 7 Days to Die, not 7 Days to Die: Darkness Falls, Sorcery, Rebirth, or similar mods. Moreover, enhancing the richness of the game's core can also facilitate greater potential for mods to flourish.
By "unique items," I refer to specific items that can only be obtained through interactions with Traders or by exploring designated areas. These items should assist players in progressing to the next stage of the game, such as certain workstation tools or components of weapons.
Currently, the game is structured with only four stages: Stone, Scrap, Iron, and Steel. Players can rapidly acquire a wide range of endgame equipment through Traders. In Alpha 21, you might find that despite your crafting skills allowing you to create basic handguns, you've already obtained an SMG through quest rewards. The issue at hand is the scarcity of game stages and the exceptional quality of Traders' rewards, isn't it?
Yes, but even if ou are right it could be fixed either through providing more stages OR fixing trader rewards. Now I know that TFP intends to publish this game with exactly this scarcity of game stages, maybe because they want to have room for 7D2D 2 on top or because they don't mind that modders fill the gap for veteran players. Likely both of this is the case.
So this leaves trader fixing as the only solution we have a chance to see in the forseeable future.
By the way, I don't see how more game stages help if you always get much better stuff at the trader than through loot or crafting. Sure, the trader will not give out end-game stuff in the first week, but it would still be OP. And eventually he would give out end-game stuff while crafting and looting would still give stuff that you got a long time ago from the trader.
In other words, in a race between rabbit and turtle it doesn't help the turtle to increase the race track length.
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I'm a buider/crafter/quester. I play SP with *mostly* vanilla settings. I use some QoL mods to help with building.
I enjoy A21. It finally solved some issues I had with 7D2D for a long time.
Having said that, I have to agree with the OP. I have crates upon crates of various components that I would love to use to make something, but I have no real reason to craft. T6 infestation PoIs have better loot than I can make and a lot of it. A single run can yield a dozen or more purple quality objects of various types, something I cannot make at all. And that doesn't include quest rewards. Of all the parts I looted, I only used steel tool parts early in the game, as everything else was either looted or given as a quest reward.
I would love to see crafting expanded. I will, of course, add some recipes myself through modding, but I strongly believe that the base game should have better recipes as well, especially mid to end game stuff.
I enjoy A21. It finally solved some issues I had with 7D2D for a long time.
Having said that, I have to agree with the OP. I have crates upon crates of various components that I would love to use to make something, but I have no real reason to craft. T6 infestation PoIs have better loot than I can make and a lot of it. A single run can yield a dozen or more purple quality objects of various types, something I cannot make at all. And that doesn't include quest rewards. Of all the parts I looted, I only used steel tool parts early in the game, as everything else was either looted or given as a quest reward.
I would love to see crafting expanded. I will, of course, add some recipes myself through modding, but I strongly believe that the base game should have better recipes as well, especially mid to end game stuff.
BFT2020
Well-known member
My mods are more designed to work together, so just using the trader aspect of it is not the same experience I have when I play the game.
Note, everything I state about how the game plays from this point on is based on A20 gameplay as I am still translating my mods over to A21 and been a bit slow about it (working on the crafting one right now which is probably the most time consuming of all the updates - not sure why I chose that one to do next).
Since I removed the ability to repair gear, crafting and buying items from the trader becomes more important. Even with the mod that I added that reduces degradation with firearms use, a gun will break before you finish a bloodmoon horde if used extensively during the BM horde (specifically at later stage BM horde nights). So if a trader has a nice pump shotgun for sale, I will purchase it if I got enough Dukes on hand so I don't have to craft another one right away. Or I spend Dukes on crafting materials so that I can craft that piece of gear I want if I am short on them.
My mod was never intended for the trader haters camp; but for those seeking to still keep traders relevant to the game, but not as OP as they can be in vanilla
This is exactly my intent with my mod and appreciate the feedback on it.
It also requires a mindset change, or accepting that the traders are not as powerful as they are in vanilla. There is probably going to be tweaks needed down the road, especially once I start playing A21 more with all my mods installed.
I am also looking into changing the rewards offered. Some thoughts I have is seeing if I can tie them to loot stage instead of a guaranteed level that they are right now. And then balance out the T1 quests so higher level players can not just spam those out to get high tier gear if they are higher level. Try to make the higher loot gear tied to the higher risk POI quests. This would be a separate trader mod than the one I got right now. Again though, the intent of this mod would be to slow down progression through trader rewards.
binf_shinana
New member
私は、「特定の装備を手に入れる」「特定の敵を倒す」など、目的を同じくする複数の要素間で完璧にバランスを取るのは不可能だと考えています。
必ず状況ごとにどれか一つが最も優秀な解決策になります。
クラフト、購入、クエスト、拾得の間について、自分はこれはできない、著しく苦手である、と明確に言えるでしょうか。
戦闘が苦手であれば購入に頼る可能性はありますが、得意であればすべての選択肢を同時に併用できます。
プレイヤーごとの「好み」によって判断することを勧めれば、問題を解決したように見せかけることはできますが、
依然として優秀な解決策はそこにあります。
有効なのは、「状況」が多岐に渡るようにすることです。
a21において、序盤は特定の雑誌に特化することで他の要素を優越しますが、その「状況」から変動はありません。
（雑誌は出現率を操作できるため、RNGに依存していない）
a20以前の設計図システムはRNGによって大きな「状況」の変化をもたらしますが、
強すぎる装備品を入手することで、後の状況変化を潰したり、
クラフトに必要な素材を集めているうちに、そのクラフト対象を手に入れてしまう問題がありました。
具体的な対抗策は、すべての要素を包括的にとらえ、すべてを調整することで
状況の変動を生み出すことです。
もっとも、この対抗策は「ゲームに遊ばれている」「状況判断が難しい」と考えるプレイヤーが発生します。
難しい。
(Google Translation)
I don't think it's possible to strike a perfect balance between multiple elements with the same goal, such as getting a specific piece of equipment or killing a specific enemy.
One of them will always be the best solution for each situation.
Between crafting, buying, questing, and picking up, can I clearly say that I can't do this, or that I'm particularly bad at it?
If you are not good at fighting, you may rely on purchasing, but if you are good at it, you can use all options at the same time.
You can make it look like you've solved the problem by encouraging players to make decisions based on their "preferences", but
There are still excellent solutions out there.
What works is to have a wide variety of "situations".
In a21, the early game dominates the rest by specializing in certain magazines, but that "situation" doesn't change.
(Magazines are not dependent on RNG as they can manipulate appearance rates)
The blueprint system before a20 brings about a big "situation" change by RNG,
By obtaining equipment that is too strong, you can crush the situation change later,
There was a problem that while collecting the materials necessary for crafting, the crafting target was obtained.
A concrete countermeasure is to consider all factors comprehensively and coordinate them all.
It is to create a change of circumstances.
However, there are players who think that this countermeasure is "played by the game" and "difficult to judge the situation".
difficult.
必ず状況ごとにどれか一つが最も優秀な解決策になります。
クラフト、購入、クエスト、拾得の間について、自分はこれはできない、著しく苦手である、と明確に言えるでしょうか。
戦闘が苦手であれば購入に頼る可能性はありますが、得意であればすべての選択肢を同時に併用できます。
プレイヤーごとの「好み」によって判断することを勧めれば、問題を解決したように見せかけることはできますが、
依然として優秀な解決策はそこにあります。
有効なのは、「状況」が多岐に渡るようにすることです。
a21において、序盤は特定の雑誌に特化することで他の要素を優越しますが、その「状況」から変動はありません。
（雑誌は出現率を操作できるため、RNGに依存していない）
a20以前の設計図システムはRNGによって大きな「状況」の変化をもたらしますが、
強すぎる装備品を入手することで、後の状況変化を潰したり、
クラフトに必要な素材を集めているうちに、そのクラフト対象を手に入れてしまう問題がありました。
具体的な対抗策は、すべての要素を包括的にとらえ、すべてを調整することで
状況の変動を生み出すことです。
もっとも、この対抗策は「ゲームに遊ばれている」「状況判断が難しい」と考えるプレイヤーが発生します。
難しい。
(Google Translation)
I don't think it's possible to strike a perfect balance between multiple elements with the same goal, such as getting a specific piece of equipment or killing a specific enemy.
One of them will always be the best solution for each situation.
Between crafting, buying, questing, and picking up, can I clearly say that I can't do this, or that I'm particularly bad at it?
If you are not good at fighting, you may rely on purchasing, but if you are good at it, you can use all options at the same time.
You can make it look like you've solved the problem by encouraging players to make decisions based on their "preferences", but
There are still excellent solutions out there.
What works is to have a wide variety of "situations".
In a21, the early game dominates the rest by specializing in certain magazines, but that "situation" doesn't change.
(Magazines are not dependent on RNG as they can manipulate appearance rates)
The blueprint system before a20 brings about a big "situation" change by RNG,
By obtaining equipment that is too strong, you can crush the situation change later,
There was a problem that while collecting the materials necessary for crafting, the crafting target was obtained.
A concrete countermeasure is to consider all factors comprehensively and coordinate them all.
It is to create a change of circumstances.
However, there are players who think that this countermeasure is "played by the game" and "difficult to judge the situation".
difficult.
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From my experience i tend to agree with the crafting is broke pov, Tier 3 items are rarely crafted beyond a level 1 if you ahve not been lucky enough to loot one by then. but mostly quest rewards and looting are the only way to get gear at the corerct level, even speccing skills to maximize the book drops for certain drops does not beat jsut questing to get the items. only exception I have noteced is if you dont get an armor bonus bundle, or any luck with the pieces from them, you might need to craft a piece or two, (and the mighty Stealth boots)
retrogamingdev
New member
Long thread here, tried to read a lot of it.
I personally play the game for the mood I am in. Sometimes, I play where I just do trader quests for my progression. Other times, I make a conscious decision to just live off my own gains and crafting. No trader quests, just work through the world like they don't exist. Whatever items I find, I do a quick glance and stats compared to what specs I am moving towards and decide if I want to use it. Sometimes I just chose the weapon I am having more fun with, even if it is technically weaker than something else I just found. Or sometimes my crafted items are my best bet.
Rarely do I consume myself so vehemently with how to min/max every aspect of my character. That seems to honestly be the biggest problem overall. It is never going to be totally balanced for every style of gameplay. Perhaps there are some more game options the Pimps could add to try and please all parties. One suggestion I saw Roland give earlier might help.
After playing for like 6 or 7 years now, I do have to say I am totally pleased with A21 so far. Not saying it is complete, not saying there isn't room for improvements, but it is a fun new system overall.
I personally play the game for the mood I am in. Sometimes, I play where I just do trader quests for my progression. Other times, I make a conscious decision to just live off my own gains and crafting. No trader quests, just work through the world like they don't exist. Whatever items I find, I do a quick glance and stats compared to what specs I am moving towards and decide if I want to use it. Sometimes I just chose the weapon I am having more fun with, even if it is technically weaker than something else I just found. Or sometimes my crafted items are my best bet.
Rarely do I consume myself so vehemently with how to min/max every aspect of my character. That seems to honestly be the biggest problem overall. It is never going to be totally balanced for every style of gameplay. Perhaps there are some more game options the Pimps could add to try and please all parties. One suggestion I saw Roland give earlier might help.
After playing for like 6 or 7 years now, I do have to say I am totally pleased with A21 so far. Not saying it is complete, not saying there isn't room for improvements, but it is a fun new system overall.
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lord_ahriman
Member
Yeap, crafting needs some love. That being said, I'd like some changes about gunpowder and gunpowder stack. It takes 15 minutes to craft 1k gunpowder, oddly 1 gunpowder stack 27 minutes. That's a very easy decision for me: 20% material saving is not worth 12 minutes.
AtomicUs5000
New member
I don't like that crafting has taken a back seat, but really simply because repair exists, it will always end up taking the back seat in the long run anyway. There really is no point in putting so much thought into trying to make the crafting of weapons and tools better. You can put so much effort in coming up with the perfectly balanced way to make sure the crafting matches with looting, buying, and/or receiving with quest rewards, but to what end? Just to feel that fleeting moment of awe a few times per game? I just think that if crafting in general is getting dull, either focus should be placed on improving crafting for things other than tools and weapons, or perhaps crafting provides some features that looting, buying, and/or reward receiving cannot provide... such as enhanced stats on those weapons and tools.
Really, between repair and the other ways of obtaining what you need, why bother even being able to craft weapons and tools at all? It would be more interesting to learn how craft tons of different mods that cannot be obtained any other way... mods that relate to the type of character you want to build and to the type of combat you enjoy... mods that can alter how you use those weapons and tools. Make those mods craftable using a combination of rare items that you must find in the wild and in specific biomes, rare items you find in specific POIs, rare items you can buy, and rare items you can receive as rewards. This not only keeps crafting alive and relevant, it keeps exploration, trade, questing relevant long into late game.
Really, between repair and the other ways of obtaining what you need, why bother even being able to craft weapons and tools at all? It would be more interesting to learn how craft tons of different mods that cannot be obtained any other way... mods that relate to the type of character you want to build and to the type of combat you enjoy... mods that can alter how you use those weapons and tools. Make those mods craftable using a combination of rare items that you must find in the wild and in specific biomes, rare items you find in specific POIs, rare items you can buy, and rare items you can receive as rewards. This not only keeps crafting alive and relevant, it keeps exploration, trade, questing relevant long into late game.
RipClaw
Well-known member
My solution is to simply build more chemistry stations and spread the workload, or just run one chemistry station on the side while the others are free for more pressing tasks.
I haven't made any steel tool, spear or weapon this playtrough.
Everything I use right now is tier 5 or 6 and all of them I got in loot or from a trader as a quest reward. And I got them wayyyy before I could make any of them myself.
And no, I didn't use any skillpoints to change anything for looting etc.
So it's fun that I can craft a tier 5 steel spear right now, but I have a tier 6 one for a very long time already.
Other example, I didn't spec into shotgun at all. At some point I got a tier 6 auto shotgun as a trader reward. I don't think I could even make a lvl 1 at the time.
Everything I use right now is tier 5 or 6 and all of them I got in loot or from a trader as a quest reward. And I got them wayyyy before I could make any of them myself.
And no, I didn't use any skillpoints to change anything for looting etc.
So it's fun that I can craft a tier 5 steel spear right now, but I have a tier 6 one for a very long time already.
Other example, I didn't spec into shotgun at all. At some point I got a tier 6 auto shotgun as a trader reward. I don't think I could even make a lvl 1 at the time.
RipClaw
Well-known member
And for me, it's the other way around. I made most of my equipment. The only exceptions are a Q4 assault rifle and a Q4 steel shovel. I got both as quest rewards.
I'm pretty much on par with the trader and quest rewards in terms of the weapons and tools I specialize in.
Are you in the pine forest when you find this good loot or in another biome ?
If you don't specialize in shotguns then you will be hard pressed to find appropriate magazines and you will be behind in manufacturing. For example, I can only craft a primitive bow but a Q5 steel spear. The reason is simply because I don't specialize in bows but in spears.
Your specialization doesn't matter for the reward from the trader. The quest tier and the quest type define from which loot table the reward is randomly selected.
lord_ahriman
Member
I always do that. What I'm saying there is a balance problem. For example gas and gas stack the difference is just 6 minutes not 12 minutes for gunpowder-gunpowder stack. It simply doesn't make any sense.
theFlu
Well-known member
Realistically, it could be explained with trade-offs. Making something 25% more efficiently usually costs more in in one sense or another; be it material quality, skill or just simple carefulness. 10 minutes per stack, sure it doesn't feel great without an actual explanation, but it's unlikely to break my game, most of my stations are usually idling anyway.
Riamus
Well-known member
As theFlu said, being more efficient in your use of materials would likely take you more time if you were doing something in real life. Having the stacks take more time provides options... do you save resources to get the gunpowder faster or do you save resources at the cost of time? Unless you're making gunpowder at the last minute before horde night, the time to craft it doesn't really matter. Start a bunch and go do something else. So time is normally not an issue. In a way, it's like cooking. People don't like the time to cook being higher if you aren't perked into it but as long as you start cooking stuff before you need it, it can cook for hours while you're doing other things and it doesn't really matter. It'll be ready when you get back to check on it later.
In most cases, I'll make stacks of gunpowder regardless of the time. Resources may be easy to come by, but time doesn't really matter at all since I don't have to sit around waiting on it and can go do other things.
lord_ahriman
Member
You guys are missing the point entirely. I'm not saying it's wrong taking time to craft stacks, I'm saying it needs balance. As I said before, one stack of gas takes 9 minutes 23 seconds; 2,5k oil shale will result in the same 5k gas and it takes 9 minutes 23 seconds as well. That's the point. Why gunpowder stack needs 27 minutes to be crafted and 1k gunpowder 15 minutes? You see, same principle, stack or conventional way, but different methodology.