PC Why isin't zombie rage in the options menu where feral sense is?

Bringing this back here as it is derailing the other thread. @theFlu

warmer said:
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how coding works. Bringing jars back is actually simple in comparison than reworking every entity AI to removing that function. A toggle button does nothing by itself. You need to make that toggle button modify a file on the fly for that specific aspect of the game. That is an entity condition.

Feral sense is a Player condition that can be changing with a single value.

Rage is a condition associated with each entity as a unique rule. It is not a blanket rule like feral sense.

This is why you don't understand my point of view. You a missing the understanding of what you are actually asking to be done. Asking for someone to bring a rock back from the moon is a lot more complex than simply asking the question.
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You maybe would be right if no rage wouldn´t be already in the game. But it is. On the lowest difficulty. So no, it wouldn´t need a complete rework of the mechanic and AI. It would be a simple thing to add a toggle on/off for all difficulties.

Still refusing to have any good reason why something that doesn´t effect you at all bothers you so much.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
Bringing this back here as it is derailing the other thread. @theFlu
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All right, all right.. let's move:

warmer said:
Rage is a condition associated with each entity as a unique rule.
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How sure are you of this; I haven't seen the code, but I'd guess this is within a single AI function, perhaps a couple different variants, but essentially no more than ~3 injections in to the code of a setting-conditional multiplier for the odds calculation.

 
pApA^LeGBa said:
Still refusing to have any good reason why something that doesn´t effect you at all bothers you so much.
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Every setting added increases the complexity of the game. Each new setting increases the possibility of adding a hard to track down bug now or in the future. It also increases the load on the QA testers as they now have more permutations that should be/need to be tested. I say this to simply point out that there is a cost to every addition of a new setting both now and in the future. And its for TFP to weigh whether that cost is worth it. None of us know how simple, hard, or prone to causing bugs such an option would be.

I have no problem with people asking for additional settings and I have no problem with people arguing against them. But pretending like there is no cost or a trivial cost to adding a setting is nothing more that wishcasting that you can get what you want without consequence.  Here's the producer/designer/director of Fallout 1, Fallout 2, and Outerworlds, Tim Cain, who briefly mentions it in a discussion about game design choices. The section starts at 3:15 and the video should start there.  But the whole video is worth watching because it is a perfect encapsulation of this forum at times and several of the recent threads (jars, rage, playstyles, etc.). 







 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
Bringing this back here as it is derailing the other thread. @theFlu

You maybe would be right if no rage wouldn´t be already in the game. But it is. On the lowest difficulty. 
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So there is no problem here.

theFlu said:
All right, all right.. let's move:

How sure are you of this; I haven't seen the code, but I'd guess this is within a single AI function, perhaps a couple different variants, but essentially no more than ~3 injections in to the code of a setting-conditional multiplier for the odds calculation.
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Each entity has different AI behaviors. I have searched every xml I can't find any values associated with rage except the destroy everything within a given radius which is not what you are asking about.

The point I was making is jars or no jars is a Boolean type scenario, not a much more complex AI modification. AI modification is CPU intensive vs. Something like a jar which isn't. If one which is much simpler and has had WAY more people complain about not getting fixed, I give something like this which requires a lot more work no chance. I am not against this. I am being honest about the chances of this getting fixed when it was implemented to solve a problem they perceived. I think people asking for fundamental changes to how the AI works will never get what they want. That is the position I am taking. Once a dev does this micro manage changing for player request it NEVER ENDS.

 
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warmer said:
AI modification is CPU intensive
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It can be, but that's not a universal rule. The rage mode check is ran once per hit; it's not that many per second even during a horde night... if the settings test becomes an issue there, you can prebake the result into some variables used. Or even use a completely different function for each setting with basically no CPU cost. But honestly, it's so simple and rare, that I really can't see how this setting would cause any issues.

Jars aren't a resource issue either; sure. They're a game design issue. TFP doesn't like the inventory clutter, nor the "ease" of the mass production. Simply adding them back would break the intended design of limiting water amounts; while the balance isn't there atm, it might get tuned into something more restricting. I wouldn't mind having them, in fact I'd like it, but TFP seems rather settled.

 
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Yeah there is no problem adding a toggle to turn rage mode on and off for all difficulties.

Having rage mode turned off would actually be less CPU intensive as there is no need to check if the zombie gets into rage mode or not. You seem to forget that there is already a way to play with no rage mode in vanilla on the lowest difficulty and that doesn´t impact performance at all.

Still no real reason why you are so against it. Unless you are a dev in disguise. And even then, people ask for things all the time and that doesn´t harm the devs at all. Not a single bit. They can simply ignore it as they do anyways most of the time. So nothing would change if they add a toggle for rage mode.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
Yeah there is no problem adding a toggle to turn rage mode on and off for all difficulties.

Having rage mode turned off would actually be less CPU intensive as there is no need to check if the zombie gets into rage mode or not. You seem to forget that there is already a way to play with no rage mode in vanilla on the lowest difficulty and that doesn´t impact performance at all.

Still no real reason why you are so against it. Unless you are a dev in disguise. And even then, people ask for things all the time and that doesn´t harm the devs at all. Not a single bit. They can simply ignore it as they do anyways most of the time. So nothing would change if they add a toggle for that, just one more thing to ignore.
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Never said I was against giving it to players. I said it is highly unlikely something they intended to be added would be removed. I don't care if you have it. I personally like it because the AI is way to predictable fory liking without it.

That being said, If it's already in game on the easiest setting, then you can EASILY mod the zombies to be more difficult/hp/dam to make this applicable to higher difficulty. You just need to MOD the spawn rate and entity HP. Again guys. What you are asking for can already be achieved without any dev time.

 
warmer said:
then you can EASILY mod the zombies to be more difficult/hp/dam to make this applicable to higher difficulty. You just need to MOD the spawn rate and entity HP.
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It's a decent suggestion for a workaround, but it relies on everything else affected by the difficulty modifier being easy to modify. It's seems apparent by now, that you do not know if that's the case; you can't make the claim of IT'S EASY.

 
theFlu said:
It's a decent suggestion for a workaround, but it relies on everything else affected by the difficulty modifier being easy to modify. It's seems apparent by now, that you do not know if that's the case; you can't make the claim of IT'S EASY.
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Download a mod. Done. It's the "make it perfect for me" that I take issue with. We all have agency. Until you exhaust your resources, asking the dev to fix something you can fix yourself is just lazy.

 
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warmer said:
Download a mod. Done.
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So, rely on someone else to do the work for you, for free, instead of being lazy and asking someone else to do the work for you, for free.

But if you just hate entitled lazy people, you should've just said so from the get go, we could've agreed! :)

 
theFlu said:
So, rely on someone else to do the work for you, for free, instead of being lazy and asking someone else to do the work for you, for free.

But if you just hate entitled lazy people, you should've just said so from the get go, we could've agreed! :)
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All of the mods already exist friend. This is a zero effort endeavor minus searching. There was never a problem, just that the people requesting this hadn't done any research. The xml files are very easy to understand. I have been modding them for years. Anyone who wants to change the fundamentals of a game should first try to understand how the game is put together before they declare how "easy" their ask is.

 
There is a mod that let´s you choose the easiest difficulty but with the option to choose a harder difficulty  that acts so you have no rage mode?

I don´t even have a clue where to start, and quite frankly i don´t have the time to learn it.

 
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warmer said:
Anyone who wants to change the fundamentals of a game should first try to understand how the game is put together before they declare how "easy" their ask is.
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Bold claim, Cotton, let's see how it works out. Go, make the mod.

 
theFlu said:
Bold claim, Cotton, let's see how it works out. Go, make the mod.
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I already did for a different purpose. I am interested in making and modifying biomes. I don't have any interest in modifying the core AI mechanics because I am satisfied with them. Look at my latest screenshots of the wasteland. Completely different than vanilla. When I am motivated, I make things happen. As should everyone.

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/35230-make-the-wasteland-great-again/

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
There is a mod that let´s you choose the easiest difficulty but with the option to choose a harder difficulty  that acts so you have no rage mode?

I don´t even have a clue where to start, and quite frankly i don´t have the time to learn it.
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I thought I saw something in the past Alpha or 2 where Rage mode was completely removed, but I don't recall where, or if it was updated to v1.0.  I think I saw it in passing but not an interest for me since I want to keep rage mode / lunge attacks / AI behavior as is currently.

warmer said:
I already did for a different purpose. I am interested in making and modifying biomes. I don't have any interest in modifying the core AI mechanics because I am satisfied with them. Look at my latest screenshots of the wasteland. Completely different than vanilla. When I am motivated, I make things happen. As should everyone.

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/35230-make-the-wasteland-great-again/
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Speaking of which, is that modlet I created for you helpful?

 
BFT2020 said:
I thought I saw something in the past Alpha or 2 where Rage mode was completely removed, but I don't recall where, or if it was updated to v1.0.  I think I saw it in passing but not an interest for me since I want to keep rage mode / lunge attacks / AI behavior as is currently.

Speaking of which, is that modlet I created for you helpful?
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I have a lot to add, once I am finished with the changes, it will be updated.

 
@BFT2020 The only one i know of is the more game options mod. Everything else that pops up if you search for no rage refers to the destroy all mode when they fall down.

They took away the spawn slider and rage mode isn´t a xml edit. It would be really convenient to have a toggle instead of having to rely that the only mod, that also does a bunch of other things aka more things that can fail,  get´s updated forever.

 
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JaxTeller718 created one that removes rage mode for all normal zombies

also Nexus has one for v1.0 - FPS No Temper Tantrums

 
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