Who wants Alpha 11 as the Sandbox Version

To me it seems like you are flustered because people have different opinions than you, interpret the resulting disagreements as people attacking you, and then blame the moderators for all of this.
Im sorry but this is where your inability to comprehend the situation or logical reasoning that's clouding you judgment. But by all means you are entitled to you opinion however inaccurate it is. It really makes sense why we need so many warning labels on things these days.
 
But I don't have to do things in a specific order.
How do you learn to craft a crucible, without first learning to craft a chem station? You don't need the chem station for a part of the crucible, it's just set in stone part of the learning path. For no "sim" reason, I might add, but to gate your progress.
Some things you absolutely have to learn in a certain order, just for the gating.

Is that the biggest of deals? No. But the rest of the game, while not as strict, is set to progress similarly on rails. Spawn in, get yellow markers to pester you to go to Rekt's. D1 Solve generating water, D2 Solve cooking water, D3 quest until tier, D5/6 get your draisine and ride it to burnt. D7 fight a horde in burnt.
 
How do you learn to craft a crucible, without first learning to craft a chem station? You don't need the chem station for a part of the crucible, it's just set in stone part of the learning path. For no "sim" reason, I might add, but to gate your progress.
Some things you absolutely have to learn in a certain order, just for the gating.

Is that the biggest of deals? No. But the rest of the game, while not as strict, is set to progress similarly on rails. Spawn in, get yellow markers to pester you to go to Rekt's. D1 Solve generating water, D2 Solve cooking water, D3 quest until tier, D5/6 get your draisine and ride it to burnt. D7 fight a horde in burnt.
I actually rarely make a crucible, I buy it or is rewarded it. Still, naturally some skills come in progress. You have to learn to walk before you can run. I agree that it doesn't make sense that a crucible should require more skill than a chemistry station (or maybe it does, I am not expert on casting crucibles nor on engineering chemistry stations), but I find it only natural that some stuff requires more training before you can do it and that crucibles aren't necessarily one of those things you can make immediately but have to learn other tricks first.
 
Thank you for confirming my whole point. You are stuck in an echo chamber. So far out of touch along with the merry band of brothers.
BTW - Can you prove your math split points theory? LOL Do you not see the double standard?


Forced loot containers are any container that includes magazines in the loot table. (This is the only way to progress outside questing or Lv 2 Intellect Mastery perk) I will explain (forced) a bit further. We are not literally forced to do this exact action as you describe. Its a an encompassing metaphor as to how a lot of people feel about the current play style. This play style is just prefect for the casual player who does not care about the mechanics of the game. However to anyone who investigates and understands the games mechanics it does feel like the dev's just gave you the player a slap to the face.

If you look through the probability of items to be included in the loot table its in fact locked behind the points you spend. The more points you spend in that area the higher the loot drop chance - intern lowering the probability of other magazines. With the current game play the previous random drop rate has been pushed so far into oblivion it almost plays no role anymore. Everything is curated to the points system and where you spend them.

A perfect example of this is locking picking added loot probability to forge ahead. So players started dropping one point into that perk as a means to up the probability which in turn drops the probability of all other magazines. But now in 2.0 TFP's didnt like that you could read the XML table and didnt like that you could use that as an option to actively hunt for forge ahead books.. So now if you read more than 15 forge ahead it removes the bonus you get from the probability chance and thus turns 1 valuable early game point to a useless point.. Yes as a form of punishment.

Look i agree if there was no title of moderator attached to his bio then yup i have to agree he can have at it like anyone else. But by extension having the moderator title on "TFP's Official Forum" comes with responsibility and as such by extension is a front for TFP's.
I would urge you to understand what responsibilities these members should have in the community.
Please tell me if any of these come close...
Maintaining Standards / Welcoming New Members / Promoting Engagement / Conflict Resolution / Acting as a Liaison / Providing Support / Awareness of Forum Goals / Promoting Best Practices
Just a short list.
Lets see if we can flip the coin and take a look from an opposing view for one second... What are the optics from an outsiders point of view?

There is no moderators guild, there are no laws to a job of moderator. There are forum rules and each forum has its own rules. There are forums where moderators are also representatives and speakers for the forum owners. And there are forums where moderators are just enforcers of the rules. You didn't appoint me, you are not the owner of the forum, you can't singlehandidly make the rules. If you want to change the rules of this forum you should probably send a **private** message to Crater Creator. This discussion is probably already violating forum rules, in more than one way.
 
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You didn't appoint me
TFP did, or did you just color yourself green one day?
You Look like a representative of the company, because you Are. They choose to grant you a status in the company, you work for them (even if you don't get paid).

I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, just pointing out that you'll never look like a normal forum user, because you aren't. You're a part of TFP, by your choice and TFP's ..
 
Forced loot containers are any container that includes magazines in the loot table. (This is the only way to progress outside questing or Lv 2 Intellect Mastery perk) I will explain (forced) a bit further. We are not literally forced to do this exact action as you describe. Its a an encompassing metaphor as to how a lot of people feel about the current play style. This play style is just prefect for the casual player who does not care about the mechanics of the game. However to anyone who investigates and understands the games mechanics it does feel like the dev's just gave you the player a slap to the face.

If you look through the probability of items to be included in the loot table its in fact locked behind the points you spend. The more points you spend in that area the higher the loot drop chance - intern lowering the probability of other magazines. With the current game play the previous random drop rate has been pushed so far into oblivion it almost plays no role anymore. Everything is curated to the points system and where you spend them.

A perfect example of this is locking picking added loot probability to forge ahead. So players started dropping one point into that perk as a means to up the probability which in turn drops the probability of all other magazines. But now in 2.0 TFP's didnt like that you could read the XML table and didnt like that you could use that as an option to actively hunt for forge ahead books.. So now if you read more than 15 forge ahead it removes the bonus you get from the probability chance and thus turns 1 valuable early game point to a useless point.. Yes as a form of punishment.
I don't know if it's quite as diabolical as that. The original concept was just equal random chance for any specific book to drop but then people had issues with reliability and those wanting to go into clubs would keep getting fist books. So the developers added an extra chance to find specific books you are looking for by putting points into the perks. The issue was then that people would have too many books of one thing and not enough variety which left them unbalanced.

The original post I quoted was asking what loot containers are forced? If you want a cooking pot you typically loot ovens and cabinets which is forced but it makes sense. If you want more magazines and books you loot those specific containers. I think a cooking pot is very valuable early on and it's one of the things people set out to find day one on purpose.

You can min/max in any game and part of that is on the player and some on the developer. For example quests being too good which relegates exploration and scavenging to being a far less efficient endeavor with your time. There is also the idea that books and magazines are very good which promotes people to go out and look for them in mailboxes. The difference between the two for me is the disparity between the two as not questing will have a much more negative impact on your game than not forcing mailboxes. That disparity is the difference, for me, between feeling forced to quest and whether I want to be a "sweaty gamer" and min/max my efficiency. Again this is just how I see it so I can understand a different take, but hopefully it explains some of my thought process.
 
So the developers added an extra chance to find specific books you are looking for by putting points into the perks
I agree with your post, but wanted to clarify this part. Its not exactly an extra chance. You have more of a chance of getting books related to your perks, but it comes at the expense of other books. So perking in one skill actually reduces your chance of getting books for other skills. I despise that part of the mechanic because there is zero explanation and a player has no way of realizing this in game.
 
I agree with your post, but wanted to clarify this part. Its not exactly an extra chance. You have more of a chance of getting books related to your perks, but it comes at the expense of other books. So perking in one skill actually reduces your chance of getting books for other skills. I despise that part of the mechanic because there is zero explanation and a player has no way of realizing this in game.
Seems like semantics. It increases your chance a little. If you have a 1 in 100 chance for a specific book you have a 2 in 100. That is an increased chance.

An chance of getting books related to your perks comes at the expense of other books. That is intended and it's because the previous system made it hard for people to find books in the skills they wanted. Imagine wanting to play with the new sledgehammers and getting 7 club books, 2 forge ahead and 0 sledge.
 
Seems like semantics. It increases your chance a little. If you have a 1 in 100 chance for a specific book you have a 2 in 100. That is an increased chance.

An chance of getting books related to your perks comes at the expense of other books. That is intended and it's because the previous system made it hard for people to find books in the skills they wanted. Imagine wanting to play with the new sledgehammers and getting 7 club books, 2 forge ahead and 0 sledge.
I disagree that its semantics. If all it did was give you a better chance of sledgehammer books, for example, no problem. But the fact that it lowers your chance of getting an armor book is a significant cost, IMO, and that is not explained in game.
 

Which is part of my point. They make the rules.

or did you just color yourself green one day?
You Look like a representative of the company, because you Are. They choose to grant you a status in the company, you work for them (even if you don't get paid).

I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, just pointing out that you'll never look like a normal forum user, because you aren't. You're a part of TFP, by your choice and TFP's ..

If at all I could be likened to a worker from a sub-contractor. We could go into all kinds of philosophical discussion now how much that makes me part of TFP and maybe even bring in modders and youtubers as being part of TFP because they work on the same game and TFP giving them privileges.
But all that really attaches me to TFP are assumptions from forum users. That seems to me like you are requesting all politicians to involuntarily take bribes because a large part of the population thinks they already do. ;)

And I also have limits what I do for naught, if I have to speak for TFP they would have to pay me.
 
I disagree that its semantics. If all it did was give you a better chance of sledgehammer books, for example, no problem. But the fact that it lowers your chance of getting an armor book is a significant cost, IMO, and that is not explained in game.
I see what you are saying. You are wanting an increased chance for an extra book specific to your perks to drop then? How would you propose to balance the increased drop rates or is that an issue?
 
I see what you are saying. You are wanting an increased chance for an extra book specific to your perks to drop then? How would you propose to balance the increased drop rates or is that an issue?
I would've just added a second "roll" for lack of a better word. You loot a container and have your normal chance to find something plus a chance at an extra book.

You'd have to play around with the numbers to balance it but something like that

Or.... just thought of this, instead of a chance to find books, maybe the perks give you a chance to get an extra skill point from reading the book which makes a lot more sense to me. Instead of magically finding a book that isn't there for someone else, you gain more from reading because of your skills.
 
That seems to me like you are requesting all politicians to involuntarily take bribes because a large part of the population thinks they already do. ;)
I don't have to request the sun to rise.. :)

If at all I could be likened to a worker from a sub-contractor.
Using a rented worker is a risk for two companies. Sure it allows for more passing of blame, but sharing is caring, they're both culpable for the actions of their chosen reps; hired, rented, owned, or volunteering. TFP doesn't seem to care, but that doesn't mean it isn't right to view them as responsible.
 
We are not literally forced to do this exact action as you describe. Its a an encompassing metaphor as to how a lot of people feel about the current play style.
That's what you'll likely never get across to most people on the official forum, moderator and otherwise. They've been playing the game for years and acclimated slowly to changes over time. It would be difficult for them to take an outsider or newcomer view and look at it with fresh eyes, so to speak, because they've been inside it for so long. I think of it as the fish bowl effect and not just in regard to this game.

It's obvious to me that any and all in-game structure, i.e. all in-game direction, has been concentrated in an exceptionally tiny, narrow, linear gameplay loop: prepare for horde night; horde night; rinse; repeat. If you follow the in-game direction, you'll find yourself on a very narrow path through a supposedly open world game. Do you have to follow that direction? No, but that's not the point despite how many are won't to make that the point. New players, especially, probably will follow that path and just as probably find the game exceptionally wanting as a result. In fact, I've seen content creators playing the game for the first time who shortly just started ridiculing this or that, e.g. bird nests on the ground, because that's the only fun they could find in it. Then, of course, came the 7DTD fans in their comment sections telling the content creator they just don't get the game; that it's actually this deep, rich engaging thing when the gameplay loop itself definitely isn't. "No, you're just playing it wrong," in other words.

Bethesda's "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" woes come to mind. Lots of items; lots of POIs; lots of mindless, meaningless "stuff to do"; but little of thoughtful, engaging interest with the possible exception of the POIs themselves. Story mode might alleviate that somewhat. Random events and emergent gameplay, maybe a little more. But the structured content will be the game's first and possibly last impression. Probably want to make it a good one.
 
It is really sad that Joel answered my post on a random small YouTuber's Video, but, they still are not talking HERE.
Well, they can choose to engage the community wherever and however they wish. Glock9 got an official "thank you" for his video on the contr(o)- vers(e)- y. I imagine they were happy to run across someone who doesn't care; just wants to play the game; and forget all those pesky, real world concerns for a while. Glock did say he was glad there are people who do care, just that he isn't one of them. : )
 
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Or.... just thought of this, instead of a chance to find books, maybe the perks give you a chance to get an extra skill point from reading the book which makes a lot more sense to me. Instead of magically finding a book that isn't there for someone else, you gain more from reading because of your skills.

That's an interesting idea.
 
I would've just added a second "roll" for lack of a better word. You loot a container and have your normal chance to find something plus a chance at an extra book.

You'd have to play around with the numbers to balance it but something like that

Or.... just thought of this, instead of a chance to find books, maybe the perks give you a chance to get an extra skill point from reading the book which makes a lot more sense to me. Instead of magically finding a book that isn't there for someone else, you gain more from reading because of your skills.
That isn't a bad idea on initial thought. Maybe someone smarter than me could find more faults but I think that's a good train of thought for a start.
 
Maybe someone <snip> could find more faults but I think that's a good train of thought for a start.
Snip'd not to make silly claims. I don't hate the idea, but it might be weird to balance. Currently at 5/5 you get 6x drop rate for the books. If you just straight up give a 6x skillpoint rate, trader and air drop books become Really valuable. Plus it might interact funny with forgetting elixir as you could respec to read what you've found (although I would be fine removing the elixir...)
 
Well, they can choose to engage the community wherever and however they wish. Glock9 got an official "thank you" for his video on the contr(o)- vers(e)- y. I imagine they were happy to run across someone who doesn't care; just wants to play the game; and forget all those pesky, real world concerns for a while. Glock did say he was glad there are people who do care, just that he isn't one of them. : )
Yes, they can.

I said as much, in a different thread, Glock ain't the guy to speak up. maybe not the best timing considering they gave him his own easter egg this patch. lol
 
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