Who wants Alpha 11 as the Sandbox Version

[Adam the Waster]

As a matter of fact, once v1.0 dropped on consoles, I went back to play the old Telltale version just to get a feel for the difference between the two.

There are aspects of the old version I must admit I do miss.

Facts!!!!! But I don't miss the graphics or zombie models aside from old Steve

 

[Lax]

Just a couple of notable things comparing the old with the new version.

One of the reasons why I absolutely adore this newer version is electricity! We citizens of The Console Master Race never got a chance to play around with, experience electricity.

Now that we do, I'm in Zed heaven! Watching those freaks get zapped brings back fond memories of playing Splinter Cell and watching Sam Fisher take out a Merc using the infamous Sticky Shocker!

What I miss about the old Telltale version is the feeling of dread as I approached the central Hub City! I was terrified of confronting Zombie Dogs on that version of the game. The current Zed Doggos don't even compare! Not to mention a pack of those beasts!

Post automatically merged: Friday at 5:44 PM

me too...to both parts. lol
the old farming system...can't believe the Pimp's got rid of the Hoes...and just farming in the ground.
Not having any trader missions
Just going for a rip on the old minibike to see what is out there

Remember collecting fertilizer from the Burnt Forest? Visiting the Burnt Forest back then had "real" meaning!

 

[Samcharles]

@Roland
It was a clever move, changing the wording of the argument, getting these guys to try to name play styles that were removed.
just like not answering the meat of my post. make it about something else.

Most of your arguments are based off of YOUR opinion but you are stating it as fact. Kills conversation...most people will not push back on a MODERATOR.
you and Meganoth are arguing with people why everything is okay with game...it's their fault they don't get how to play it.
excellent gas lighting...■■■■ty behavior.

Hammer man, you're seeing shadows where there aren't any. Roland and Meganoth are here just stating their opinions and you are demonizing them. You are being unfair. Dumping on TFP is one thing but these guys don't deserve this.

You seem to take things so personally. It's just a game forum for people to discuss their opinions. I love 7 Days to Die. Being passionate about a game is great imo but you are taking it way over the top.
Seriously, step away, take some breaths, whatever works for you. You are turning this thing into a personal grudge match. Please stop.

 

[Charger265]

What, really? My post was just like any other post someone here could have posted, polite, not assuming any intentions why you posted whatever you posted, on topic, just with a different viewpoint. And you immediately jump onto the meta-level and practically accuse me of being a moderator and attach motivations why I would post this as if you could read my mind.

"The boy who cried wolf"

Simplified monologue:
Me the moderator im not at fault. I can never be at fault. Its you the player that's playing the game wrong and there is noting wrong with the game.. Its all your fault.
I am only putting this here as an example you maybe able to learn from.

Its very easy for someone from the outside to see how such a closed minded & polarized culture has been created within this forum. The game itself is already facing an uphill battle to regain a large portion of the player bases trust. Quality feedback needs to funneled to the dev team and this "Official Forum" is clearly not it..

If you remember clearly in my first post i clearly stated to show respect as i will in return. I dont sugar coat things.. call a spade a spade. Yes feeling will be hurt unfortunately im unable to console emotional maturity. Instead of engaging with differing opinions, you continue to misrepresent my position and shift the focus, which prevents any constructive progress. This social behavior would be considered "bad faith" discourages any form of open discussion. On the surface its egotistical and almost blind faith ideology. Further more you have a neat little community around you which quite happily follow the ideology and continue to harass those members with a differing view.

What surprises me you were able to identify that the one's "Complaining" (in your eyes) the most were long time players who had significant hours into the game and likely support the community in so may different ways. However you took the stance that because "i'm (you) not unhappy with the game those long term players should get with the program."

Its interesting how the first post was titled.. "Time to Reflect"
I really dont wish any ill will upon you. I hope you can at least take it on as constructive criticism and grow as a person from it. Help build a culture around here that is beneficial for the game as a whole

 

[Samcharles]

"The boy who cried wolf"

Simplified monologue:
Me the moderator im not at fault. I can never be at fault. Its you the player that's playing the game wrong and there is noting wrong with the game.. Its all your fault.
I am only putting this here as an example you maybe able to learn from.

Its very easy for someone from the outside to see how such a closed minded & polarized culture has been created within this forum. The game itself is already facing an uphill battle to regain a large portion of the player bases trust. Quality feedback needs to funneled to the dev team and this "Official Forum" is clearly not it..

If you remember clearly in my first post i clearly stated to show respect as i will in return. I dont sugar coat things.. call a spade a spade. Yes feeling will be hurt unfortunately im unable to console emotional maturity. Instead of engaging with differing opinions, you continue to misrepresent my position and shift the focus, which prevents any constructive progress. This social behavior would be considered "bad faith" discourages any form of open discussion. On the surface its egotistical and almost blind faith ideology. Further more you have a neat little community around you which quite happily follow the ideology and continue to harass those members with a differing view.

What surprises me you were able to identify that the one's "Complaining" (in your eyes) the most were long time players who had significant hours into the game and likely support the community in so may different ways. However you took the stance that because "i'm (you) not unhappy with the game those long term players should get with the program."

Its interesting how the first post was titled.. "Time to Reflect"
I really dont wish any ill will upon you. I hope you can at least take it on as constructive criticism and grow as a person from it. Help build a culture around here that is beneficial for the game as a whole

Good lord, come on. Meganoth is not doing anything wrong. You can state any opinion you want on these forums. As long as it's polite, respectful and within the forum rules. I mean what would be the point of trying to hide negative opinions anyway? There are posts about people's issues all over the Steam forums and Reddit as well as plenty of negative reviews on Steam. Not to mention plenty of videos on various sites. Hiding it would simply be a waste of time.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Hammer. You are seeing shadows where there aren't any.

 

[Roland]

so we don't have to talk about the design.

It’s sad that you think this is my agenda. Where is all the silence due to me questioning proposed changes? This entire thread of talking has come about because I questioned whether a sandbox mode should have progression systems that certain players will inevitably allow to overwhelm all other gameplay. How is that trying to stop people from talking about the design?

 

[theFlu]

It’s sad that you think this is my agenda.

I don't know if it's your agenda; but you don't seem to understand my complaints. Anyhoo, I actually got curious about how you find bookshelves without mailboxes, seems the most interesting thing in this thread .. care to enlighten me?

 

[Roland]

Its very easy for someone from the outside to see how such a closed minded & polarized culture has been created within this forum. The game itself is already facing an uphill battle to regain a large portion of the player bases trust. Quality feedback needs to funneled to the dev team and this "Official Forum" is clearly not it..

Compared to what other venue? This is the only place I read both criticism and praise. This is the only place I read people who don’t like the current path of development and also those who do. This is the only forum where people challenge the ideas they read without being completely ripped apart by negativity.

Do you really just want to write your objections and suggestions and have every single reply be “Sounds great!”? Do you think that would funnel your ideas to the devs any more effectively?

Everyone gets to respond with their unique point of view and have their point of view questioned and challenged. People have been questioning and challenging my point of view constantly and it’s all here to read.

 

[HammerDano]

Hammer man, you're seeing shadows where there aren't any. Roland and Meganoth are here just stating their opinions and you are demonizing them. You are being unfair. Dumping on TFP is one thing but these guys don't deserve this.

You seem to take things so personally. It's just a game forum for people to discuss their opinions. I love 7 Days to Die. Being passionate about a game is great imo but you are taking it way over the top.
Seriously, step away, take some breaths, whatever works for you. You are turning this thing into a personal grudge match. Please stop.

Since I don't know you, and I don't really remember interacting with you, I am just going to disregard you. As these guys used to say to me...go read the forum...when you know enough you can speak about it.

Roland does use debate lord tactics. Both of them are telling people their OPINIONS and expecting them to STFU.
They are telling people they just don't know how to play the game. That nothing has "really" changed.

That seems like the opposite of useful.
So I will tell you this...when I get useful communication...I will back off.
but I will not be gas lit.

 

[Samcharles]

Since I don't know you, and I don't really remember interacting with you, I am just going to disregard you. As these guys used to say to me...go read the forum...when you know enough you can speak about it.

Roland does use debate lord tactics. Both of them are telling people their OPINIONS and expecting them to STFU.
They are telling people they just don't know how to play the game. That nothing has "really" changed.

That seems like the opposite of useful.
So I will tell you this...when I get useful communication...I will back off.
but I will not be gas lit.

Okay, dude. ::Headdesk::

 

[Kyoji]

Seems like that might be something that will change. Probably will be default for both modes.


That's good for you. I like biome progression and don't see it as contradictory to an open world game. Just because I have to prep and complete tasks before opening up a new biome doesn't mean that the entire game is non-open world. In the grand scheme of an entire playthrough the entire world is open. It takes 10-20 minutes of real time to earn each badge for maybe 1-2 hours of playtime out of a 50-70 hour playthrough. But that is just my own take.

If they do decide to add jars hopefully they reduce murky water drop rates in loot and make water more difficult to sustain early on.

I feel like Biome Progression has multiple meanings to different people. For me I don't mind making it more difficult to live in the biomes with things that drain resources or limit exposure to the biome in various ways so long as it is still possible to live there. Now there is a balance to that, but generally speaking needing to warm/heat up to stay alive, more difficult zombies, and dealing with dangerous storms would suffice.

The idea, again, is to make living in the biomes far more difficult without making it impossible. The challenge and progress should come naturally and not artificially.

I terms of open world, I don't mind character leveling and spending points on Perks. I don't mind searching the world for magazines and books.

In terms of open world options, turning off quests has some appeal. Turning off traders has some appeal too right now, though that could change with bandits if they lead to factions. I could see wanting to be the last survivor. I could see wanting to fit into a badlands society.

I could also see some alternative stories. Whatever The Duke story is, of course, but I also kind of like an "escape from the badlands" story.

I agree. I don't mind some proper RPG elements to the game so long as they don't overshadow the core of the open world sandbox survival.

Things like leveling and story can accentuate the core game, but again shouldn't detract from it. Games like Subnautica, Grounded, etc are all open world survival games that have a story and leveling elements but you are free to tackle the game how you want to a large degree. I won't say the designs of such games are perfect but it is better than the current questing model and forced biome progression.

Forced to loot specific loot containers to progress, Being forced to chose a set character tree by way of falling behind the zombie progression if you diversify, Loot progression is locked behind skill points and loot tables. There are plenty more but you pointed it out yourself the progression system keeps adding temporary restriction which dictates the way the game is played.

You are right to the extent there is nothing stopping me from going a stun baton melee M60 machine gun and miner build but im now forced to spread the points over 3 trees losing out on all the bonus's (outlined more by the mastery branch)

What loot containers are forced? I'm not understanding. Also I think most if not all of the progression trees can beat the game. Not every one will be the best but they each can.

Loot also isn't locked behind points. It just helps collect certain things faster. You can still get those items with no points.

The loot tables I agree need some work.

Also progression trees are not new to open world sandbox survival games as you can still use each weapon but it will be a hit worse than if you didn't spec into it. I think some of the bonuses are fantasy such as no fall damage and in general the tech tree should be less overpowered though.

If you play at a difficulty level where you need every percentage of DPS and other advantage to stay above the enemy difficulty then you need to play with the best path available in the game. In consequence you only have one path available in any game that isn't perfectly balanced. 7days isn't and can't ever be, because there is no way to bring all play styles and number of players this game can be played with to be perfectly balanced. (Not saying they shouldn't balance it further, it helps, but there will always be a meta that is the best and fastest way to play the game)

So there is a level of play where you may be forced to play only one tree but not the absolute best path, but many players fall outside that path and either could easily do a double-tree game or are fixed to a game where they have no choice anyway and have to follow that one true best path

Very true. If you want to go super max difficulty then not every build will be viable. At that point it's a matter of how impossible it is to balance weapons against all possibilities.

They've nerfed things, yes, based on feedback; but their own implementations are the best indicator of their intent. They added a quest cap to slow the progress down; that was quickly made into a setting. Because there's nothing to do outside what you'd do for questing.
They added biome progression that just happens to line up with the quest progression, and their "intended" rate of progress (I guess the intent about 1 week per biome). They could force a more creative / choicy gameplay by making the biomes progress in a different order to traders. That'd feel less like a monorail. Not much better, but something they probably didn't even think about being a possibility.

At first we chided them for not listening for years and now we think they have. Can't have it both ways.

I think my main critique of TFP is they understand the issues with the game but the fixes are too often not ideal.

Meaning people who cut corners taking shortcuts to objectives instead of the suggested direction?

In terms of this discussion I think people are talking about being encouraged to play a certain way. For example quests being considerably better than just randomly looting. So if don't quest you are actively putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

[Soulmonster]

Yeah, you can Alt-F4. If you don't do a quest while looting, you're desyncing your biome progress from the trader progress. It's not about "can you do something specific a little differently", it's about all the systems driving you to the same thing.

I will use your post as a stepping stone to comment on the overall discussion; this is not all meant as a reply to you specifically

I am sure you use some rhetorical exaggeration, but I don't feel driven to anything when I play the game. That game is an oyster.

I mean, sure, there are some strategies that work out better than others. The sledgehammer/shotgun is a great combo found under Strength. Electric fences and autoguns make base life more comfortable. Hiding on top of a tall base at night can make me unseen. Doing quests give me lots of money. But I don't have to do things in a specific order. I don't have to do the smart things. I can get by with other choices if I want to. In my solo games (at the hardest difficulty with reduced loot), I have had fun and played for long times with other strategies. When playing multiplayer we usually decide who is going to specialize in what to get a well-rounded party.

And real life is the same. Some things are smart to do (exercise, eat healthy, read and gather knowledge, invest your money sensibly, take the right education, never drink alcohol, etc) - but although we might feel driven to do things we still have a choice to do what is fun.

I feel like people who feel trapped to spend their skill points a certain way, trapped to do quests and nothing else, trapped to build bases a certain way, etc, are doing themselves a disservice - and are also doing TFP a disservice when arguing they don't have a choice. I think most players don't suffer from this, they either don't know the best strategies and have fun not knowing, or they manage to do what is fun and not what mathematically makes most sense.

A game where all strategic decisions meant the same in terms of long-term viability, where all skills where equally good, etc, is utopian and not realistic at all. Sure, TFP could try to adjust balance to make sledgehammer/shotgun less powerful. But should they? If immersion is a goal then maybe not? And is it even possible to make everything equally good - or desirable?

 

[Kalen]

I feel like people who feel trapped to spend their skill points a certain way, trapped to do quests and nothing else, trapped to build bases a certain way, etc, are doing themselves a disservice - and are also doing TFP a disservice when arguing they don't have a choice. I think most players don't suffer from this, they either don't know the best strategies and have fun not knowing, or they manage to do what is fun and not what mathematically makes most sense.

I hate trying to speak for other people, but I think the people who are saying they feel trapped don't actually feel literally trapped by the game. I believe what their problem is is the fact that game incentivizes certain combinations of skills because of the structure of the perks. You want to use sledgehammers? Then the game guides you to use shotguns and be a miner. You want to use a sniper rifle? The game guides you to use spears and be a scavenger. Obviously, you can ignore this guidance, as you pointed out, but you do so at a cost.

I've said before, if the game had always been this way, it probably wouldn't be an issue (or at least not as much of one), but it wasn't always this way. You used to be able to focus on whatever skills you wanted without having to worry about what perk tree it was in.

 

[Soulmonster]

I hate trying to speak for other people, but I think the people who are saying they feel trapped don't actually feel literally trapped by the game. I believe what their problem is is the fact that game incentivizes certain combinations of skills because of the structure of the perks. You want to use sledgehammers? Then the game guides you to use shotguns and be a miner. You want to use a sniper rifle? The game guides you to use spears and be a scavenger. Obviously, you can ignore this guidance, as you pointed out, but you do so at a cost.

I've said before, if the game had always been this way, it probably wouldn't be an issue (or at least not as much of one), but it wasn't always this way. You used to be able to focus on whatever skills you wanted without having to worry about what perk tree it was in.

I think you did good and I probably reacted to rhetorical exaggeration.

Yes, we sometime choose suboptimal strategies, in games as in real life, and that comes at some cost. But it is also fun.

As for perk trees and how it connects certain skills: Yes, I get that and it doesn't make much sense always. Still, you are still free to focus on whatever skills you have, you just have to accept that this might mean you are now not playing the mathematically optimal way. And still enjoy it.

 

[Charger265]

Compared to what other venue? This is the only place I read both criticism and praise. This is the only place I read people who don’t like the current path of development and also those who do. This is the only forum where people challenge the ideas they read without being completely ripped apart by negativity.

Thank you for confirming my whole point. You are stuck in an echo chamber. So far out of touch along with the merry band of brothers.
BTW - Can you prove your math split points theory? LOL Do you not see the double standard?

What loot containers are forced? I'm not understanding. Also I think most if not all of the progression trees can beat the game. Not every one will be the best but they each can.

Loot also isn't locked behind points. It just helps collect certain things faster. You can still get those items with no points.

Forced loot containers are any container that includes magazines in the loot table. (This is the only way to progress outside questing or Lv 2 Intellect Mastery perk) I will explain (forced) a bit further. We are not literally forced to do this exact action as you describe. Its a an encompassing metaphor as to how a lot of people feel about the current play style. This play style is just prefect for the casual player who does not care about the mechanics of the game. However to anyone who investigates and understands the games mechanics it does feel like the dev's just gave you the player a slap to the face.

If you look through the probability of items to be included in the loot table its in fact locked behind the points you spend. The more points you spend in that area the higher the loot drop chance - intern lowering the probability of other magazines. With the current game play the previous random drop rate has been pushed so far into oblivion it almost plays no role anymore. Everything is curated to the points system and where you spend them.

A perfect example of this is locking picking added loot probability to forge ahead. So players started dropping one point into that perk as a means to up the probability which in turn drops the probability of all other magazines. But now in 2.0 TFP's didnt like that you could read the XML table and didnt like that you could use that as an option to actively hunt for forge ahead books.. So now if you read more than 15 forge ahead it removes the bonus you get from the probability chance and thus turns 1 valuable early game point to a useless point.. Yes as a form of punishment.

Good lord, come on. Meganoth is not doing anything wrong. You can state any opinion you want on these forums. As long as it's polite, respectful and within the forum rules. I mean what would be the point of trying to hide negative opinions anyway? There are posts about people's issues all over the Steam forums and Reddit as well as plenty of negative reviews on Steam. Not to mention plenty of videos on various sites. Hiding it would simply be a waste of time.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Hammer. You are seeing shadows where there aren't any.

Look i agree if there was no title of moderator attached to his bio then yup i have to agree he can have at it like anyone else. But by extension having the moderator title on "TFP's Official Forum" comes with responsibility and as such by extension is a front for TFP's.
I would urge you to understand what responsibilities these members should have in the community.
Please tell me if any of these come close...
Maintaining Standards / Welcoming New Members / Promoting Engagement / Conflict Resolution / Acting as a Liaison / Providing Support / Awareness of Forum Goals / Promoting Best Practices
Just a short list.
Lets see if we can flip the coin and take a look from an opposing view for one second... What are the optics from an outsiders point of view?

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

if the game had always been this way, it probably wouldn't be an issue (or at least not as much of one)

I was with you up to there. I started testing in earnest with A21 and found the weapon "guidance" in the perk trees restrictive. I'm not even naturally a min-maxer and still hesitate to spread my points thin.

One memorable test, I finally wound up with a viable set of weapons from different trees. It took forever to level them because I had to spend points in the trees first in order to do it, but I pushed through...only to meet the criteria for my test.

 

[Samcharles]

Thank you for confirming my whole point. You are stuck in an echo chamber. So far out of touch along with the merry band of brothers.
BTW - Can you prove your math split points theory? LOL Do you not see the double standard?


Forced loot containers are any container that includes magazines in the loot table. (This is the only way to progress outside questing or Lv 2 Intellect Mastery perk) I will explain (forced) a bit further. We are not literally forced to do this exact action as you describe. Its a an encompassing metaphor as to how a lot of people feel about the current play style. This play style is just prefect for the casual player who does not care about the mechanics of the game. However to anyone who investigates and understands the games mechanics it does feel like the dev's just gave you the player a slap to the face.

If you look through the probability of items to be included in the loot table its in fact locked behind the points you spend. The more points you spend in that area the higher the loot drop chance - intern lowering the probability of other magazines. With the current game play the previous random drop rate has been pushed so far into oblivion it almost plays no role anymore. Everything is curated to the points system and where you spend them.

A perfect example of this is locking picking added loot probability to forge ahead. So players started dropping one point into that perk as a means to up the probability which in turn drops the probability of all other magazines. But now in 2.0 TFP's didnt like that you could read the XML table and didnt like that you could use that as an option to actively hunt for forge ahead books.. So now if you read more than 15 forge ahead it removes the bonus you get from the probability chance and thus turns 1 valuable early game point to a useless point.. Yes as a form of punishment.

Look i agree if there was no title of moderator attached to his bio then yup i have to agree he can have at it like anyone else. But by extension having the moderator title on "TFP's Official Forum" comes with responsibility and as such by extension is a front for TFP's.
I would urge you to understand what responsibilities these members should have in the community.
Please tell me if any of these come close...
Maintaining Standards / Welcoming New Members / Promoting Engagement / Conflict Resolution / Acting as a Liaison / Providing Support / Awareness of Forum Goals / Promoting Best Practices
Just a short list.
Lets see if we can flip the coin and take a look from an opposing view for one second... What are the optics from an outsiders point of view?

Only to do what they are supposed to in regards to being a forum moderator. They are allowed to give their opinions freely. TFP isn't holding them to some standard to only say good things about their games and squash negative opinions. The moderators are volunteers, they don't get paid, so they don't work for TFP beyond maintaining these forums.

 

[Charger265]

It's disheartening when the point sails over their heads, mired in a fog of willful ignorance.

 

[Soulmonster]

Thank you for confirming my whole point. You are stuck in an echo chamber. So far out of touch along with the merry band of brothers.
BTW - Can you prove your math split points theory? LOL Do you not see the double standard?


Forced loot containers are any container that includes magazines in the loot table. (This is the only way to progress outside questing or Lv 2 Intellect Mastery perk) I will explain (forced) a bit further. We are not literally forced to do this exact action as you describe. Its a an encompassing metaphor as to how a lot of people feel about the current play style. This play style is just prefect for the casual player who does not care about the mechanics of the game. However to anyone who investigates and understands the games mechanics it does feel like the dev's just gave you the player a slap to the face.

If you look through the probability of items to be included in the loot table its in fact locked behind the points you spend. The more points you spend in that area the higher the loot drop chance - intern lowering the probability of other magazines. With the current game play the previous random drop rate has been pushed so far into oblivion it almost plays no role anymore. Everything is curated to the points system and where you spend them.

A perfect example of this is locking picking added loot probability to forge ahead. So players started dropping one point into that perk as a means to up the probability which in turn drops the probability of all other magazines. But now in 2.0 TFP's didnt like that you could read the XML table and didnt like that you could use that as an option to actively hunt for forge ahead books.. So now if you read more than 15 forge ahead it removes the bonus you get from the probability chance and thus turns 1 valuable early game point to a useless point.. Yes as a form of punishment.

Look i agree if there was no title of moderator attached to his bio then yup i have to agree he can have at it like anyone else. But by extension having the moderator title on "TFP's Official Forum" comes with responsibility and as such by extension is a front for TFP's.
I would urge you to understand what responsibilities these members should have in the community.
Please tell me if any of these come close...
Maintaining Standards / Welcoming New Members / Promoting Engagement / Conflict Resolution / Acting as a Liaison / Providing Support / Awareness of Forum Goals / Promoting Best Practices
Just a short list.
Lets see if we can flip the coin and take a look from an opposing view for one second... What are the optics from an outsiders point of view?

As a new member here, I think @Roland is acting like a moderator should: He is measured, constructive, diplomatic, doesn't react to ad hominems, and goes to great length in trying to get his points across - and all rather cheerfully. From some other member who complained about having been banned, it also seems like rules are enforced. What else could we want from a moderator? To me it seems like you are flustered because people have different opinions than you, interpret the resulting disagreements as people attacking you, and then blame the moderators for all of this.

 

[Charger265]

As a new member here, I think Roland is acting like a moderator should

Well you are entitled to your opinion.