Who wants Alpha 11 as the Sandbox Version

[InfiniteWarrior]

So, does it have to be absolute? Is that what we are getting at? I never played any of those As, but even since A20 you can see more and more restrictions

It would seem that no discussion can be had without the vast majority insisting a former version as it was would have to make a comeback or that all losses/changes since are fine and those "bitter" people just need to get over it.

A few are conversing, however, about the possibility of hybrid systems balanced against one another, e.g. organic water collection alongside dew collectors and LBD for leveling skills with books/magazines for crafting, perks, etc. Those more reasonable conversations are, of course, being all but completely drowned out.

Most of the restriction issues can be solved simply by virtue of the fact that TFP have realized not everything must be linearized just because a story mode is forthcoming. I can see said restrictions easily being toggled on and off, which it seemed from the stream they were thinking of doing, or even removed altogether for a fully randomized experience.

 

[Roland]

THIS is why I say moderators should not be in the chat...they should be MODERATING the chat.
Ideally....you moderators WOULD be fulfilling the roll of a community manager. Only intervening to insert correct info or to quiet arguments.

Hmmmm….Let’s try it this way for awhile.

 

[Samcharles]

did you say...IN MY OPINION first?
NO you did not.
and you do speak for TFP on here. whether you should be or not.
now you are smearing me...because you got caught trying to play stupid about what you said.
THIS is why I say moderators should not be in the chat...they should be MODERATING the chat.
Ideally....you moderators WOULD be fulfilling the roll of a community manager. Only intervening to insert correct info or to quiet arguments.

At bare minimum you should have confirmed this to be true with Roland before making a post like this.
Roland has said more than once that he doesn't work for TFP and that he doesn't speak for them. (Roland please feel free to correct me if any of this is incorrect.)
You could have said something more along the lines of Roland said xyz. I think it may mean this.
Most of the things people say on the forums are their opinions. You have to be very careful about interpreting things as facts.

 

[Kyoji]

I don't suspect we will go quite that far. Plus it's not like you can't have story and sandbox mixed it just had to be done right. Have it available to complete if they wish to do so or they can just run around and not do it.

Fundamentally people seem to try and go back in time to fix the sandbox elements. RPG elements don't have to run contrary to sandbox.

The fundamental principle I feel making people feel lost is traders and quests. Unless you get rid of that or fix it no amount of jars or LBD will fill that gap.

Now it's pretty unreasonable to get rid of them and even if you do many POIs have been transformed into mini dungeons with a linear layout.

Going forward, the direction we should be aiming for, they should develop less linear POIs that are not filled with as many locked doors.

Furthermore, we need alternatives to questing. Things like bandits in remnant POIs and remnant POIs offering more function than just trash buildings people avoid. I understand they developed them to ease the load on systems but we really need alternatives to questing and remnant POI redesigns would help a lot. Add proper loot throughout remnant POIs with more zombies which shouldn't be an issue with the nee spawning systems.

Lastly, add random events using flatspot code. Identify flat areas on the map and dynamically spawn random events from a pool of events that change depending on biome, whether it's a tile or wilderness, game stage, etc. Things like bandit raids when near your claim block, downed helicopters with a smoke trail, herds of animals, etc.

These will help to get rid of the linear progression of questing while not getting rid of it entirely and POIs will be more natural to progress inside without it feeling like your on rails. It will give remnant POIs a value which can offset questing and provide valuable scavenging with risks. The flatspot coding adds randomness to further breakup the gameplay and makes each run more dynamic. Maybe that downed helicopter will have military grade loot but with several feral wights nearby on alert. The game could do with less hard coded loot drops and more difficulty based loot to where if you risk your life and succeed you can get some good loot.

Death penalties should be a default option as well with it being toggle-able where you get a debuff when you revive and can be alleviated with lots of rest and/or medicine.

Anyway just some random thoughts but generally speaking the game needs less rails and more "go and do whatever".

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I don't suspect we will go quite that far. Plus it's not like you can't have story and sandbox mixed it just had to be done right. Have it available to complete if they wish to do so or they can just run around and not do it.

Fundamentally people seem to try and go back in time to fix the sandbox elements. RPG elements don't have to run contrary to sandbox.

The fundamental principle I feel making people feel lost is traders and quests. Unless you get rid of that or fix it no amount of jars or LBD will fill that gap.

Now it's pretty unreasonable to get rid of them and even if you do many POIs have been transformed into mini dungeons with a linear layout.

Going forward, the direction we should be aiming for, they should develop less linear POIs that are not filled with as many locked doors.

Furthermore, we need alternatives to questing. Things like bandits in remnant POIs and remnant POIs offering more function than just trash buildings people avoid. I understand they developed them to ease the load on systems but we really need alternatives to questing and remnant POI redesigns would help a lot. Add proper loot throughout remnant POIs with more zombies which shouldn't be an issue with the nee spawning systems.

Lastly, add random events using flatspot code. Identify flat areas on the map and dynamically spawn random events from a pool of events that change depending on biome, whether it's a tile or wilderness, game stage, etc. Things like bandit raids when near your claim block, downed helicopters with a smoke trail, herds of animals, etc.

These will help to get rid of the linear progression of questing while not getting rid of it entirely and POIs will be more natural to progress inside without it feeling like your on rails. It will give remnant POIs a value which can offset questing and provide valuable scavenging with risks. The flatspot coding adds randomness to further breakup the gameplay and makes each run more dynamic. Maybe that downed helicopter will have military grade loot but with several feral wights nearby on alert. The game could do with less hard coded loot drops and more difficulty based loot to where if you risk your life and succeed you can get some good loot.

Death penalties should be a default option as well with it being toggle-able where you get a debuff when you revive and can be alleviated with lots of rest and/or medicine.

Anyway just some random thoughts but generally speaking the game needs less rails and more "go and do whatever".

That's a good summary of many of the ideas for emergent gameplay suggested thus far. It would make a nice thread of its own. I wouldn't discount those hybrid systems, though. The reason, I think, TFP aren't groking the issue there is that it's aesthetic rather than purely mechanical.

 

[HammerDano]

At bare minimum you should have confirmed this to be true with Roland before making a post like this.
Roland has said more than once that he doesn't work for TFP and that he doesn't speak for them. (Roland please feel free to correct me if any of this is incorrect.)
You could have said something more along the lines of Roland said xyz. I think it may mean this.
Most of the things people say on the forums are their opinions. You have to be very careful about interpreting things as facts.

i did post this before he replied...that is true.
if you knew how many times I get ignored you might have a different view.
I did view his post as malicious compliance...and tone deaf.
I am currently being ignored about when/if are TFP going to follow up the Town Hall?
I don't think they realize how thin patience at large is.

And I mean just a "we are working on a method to gather feedback...figuring out how to get reliable answers is tough" nothing fancy...no dates.
and then follow thru on it.
or not
I am not inclined to keep giving them unlimited time...never was.

 

[theFlu]

I don't think they realize how thin patience at large is.

Honestly... take a break from all things 7dtd. Come back with, say .. 3.2, around Q4 2027, to point and laugh at the bandits.
Not because you aren't correct in your way, but because it seems it's eating you alive.
It's a game; getting upset about it, like at all, isn't worth it. Being mad at the devs/team doing what they've been doing for a decade now.. you got a lot to be mad about ahead of you.

 

[plzkthxbye]

I am currently being ignored about when/if are TFP going to follow up the Town Hall?

Not if they don't currently know the answer to that question (which I hope you realize is a possibility).

 

[HammerDano]

Honestly... take a break from all things 7dtd. Come back with, say .. 3.2, around Q4 2027, to point and laugh at the bandits.
Not because you aren't correct in your way, but because it seems it's eating you alive.
It's a game; getting upset about it, like at all, isn't worth it. Being mad at the devs/team doing what they've been doing for a decade now.. you got a lot to be mad about ahead of you.

Appreciate your concern, but, I will know in the next two weeks, or so, how the next two years are going to go. I am retired...so I will get my time filled one way or another. I really don't want the bandits to be bad...I think the amount of time they have been delayed has increased the expectations for them.
Be sad if people been waiting since 2018-ish? for "meh".

if they are still working on getting 3.0 out in 2027...man...I don't even want to contemplate that.
But that is an attitude that I get from the PC side of the house...Bandits are the one part that a lot of you doubt. I get why. You were the ones they were promised to. I find it ironic that the PC crowd seem to be the ones leaning towards "souped up" A16...while it's the console gamers who seem more accepting of 2.0 (no for those about to ask...I do not have stats...which is why it was stated as an observation)

I have uninstalled the game
there's no point in playing right now...and there's no point in being a false stat as an active happy player.

 

[Samcharles]

i did post this before he replied...that is true.
if you knew how many times I get ignored you might have a different view.
I did view his post as malicious compliance...and tone deaf.
I am currently being ignored about when/if are TFP going to follow up the Town Hall?
I don't think they realize how thin patience at large is.

And I mean just a "we are working on a method to gather feedback...figuring out how to get reliable answers is tough" nothing fancy...no dates.
and then follow thru on it.
or not
I am not inclined to keep giving them unlimited time...never was.

They may not follow up. They may just implement the things they said they will and feel like hey we implemented what people asked for so we should be good in regards to 2.0.

They already started implementing a couple of things, loot cap removal and changed requirements for the zombies you have to kill for the biome badge requirements. So it seems the wheels are in motion. Only time will tell though.

 

[HammerDano]

Not if they don't currently know the answer to that question (which I hope you realize is a possibility).

I do...which is why I added that part about ANYTHING would be better than nothing right now. No dates until they KNOW...just a friendly "we are working on how to gather intel and feedback from you" that would buy them more time to get a plan together. Joel started this BS by jumping on reddit After just having that "town hall" and saying that he was going to follow up on there soon. So between the town hall...where they said they would follow up...and Joel doing his own thing... they should FOLLOW UP. sooner than later (imo)

Post automatically merged: Aug 6, 2025

They may not follow up. They may just implement the things they said they will and feel like hey we implemented what people asked for so we should be good in regards to 2.0.

They already started implementing a couple of things, loot cap removal and changed requirements for the zombies you have to kill for the biome badge requirements. So it seems the wheels are in motion. Only time will tell though.

yup...you could be right.
that would fly in the face of what they said on the town hall and what Joel said on reddit. for what it is worth.

 

[Charger265]

Everybody knows moderators have an opinion of their own and are allowed to post it. You are the only one pulling your hair over it. This will not change and you have no say in it. Period.

Yup their opinion counts just as much as everyone else. They also have extra responsibilities as being a mod on an official forum by extension represents TFP's despite what is claimed..

What i believe the OP is calling out is the apparent double standards where its ok for one party to make a statement without clarifying "its their Opinion" and another by not stating its an opinion is held to another standard. I also dont believe he is the first to point this out

And oh! Removing all RPG elements would go along way towards helping PVP being a more fair battlefield.

It would definitely sort out a lot of the issues for PVP. I have to agree with you going back to a no progression system for sandbox would be a option. plus gives the modders a clean slate to do what they want.

 

[Roland]

Yup their opinion counts just as much as everyone else. They also have extra responsibilities as being a mod on an official forum by extension represents TFP's despite what is claimed..

What i believe the OP is calling out is the apparent double standards where its ok for one party to make a statement without clarifying "its their Opinion" and another by not stating its an opinion is held to another standard. I also dont believe he is the first to point this out


It would definitely sort out a lot of the issues for PVP. I have to agree with you going back to a no progression system for sandbox would be a option. plus gives the modders a clean slate to do what they want.

I agree that I should be crystal clear when I am posting my opinion and I usually am but the person I quoted in that thread was asking for ideas about what could be the basis of the two modes because the thread was getting off topic. To help get it back on topic I answered his question with my own thoughts. Since I was answering a question asking for ideas I thought it obvious that I was sharing my ideas and not making some kind of official announcement.

What is irritating to me is that Hammer sees nefarious intent in everything. It also irritates me that he misquoted me. I never suggested A11 as the version to base a sandbox version off of. It shows he didn't read carefully to understand what I was saying. I know it was just a mistake but I also know that if the same mistake were mine they would accuse me of lying just like they constantly accuse the devs of lying about tentative dates. Even my response which was a sincere answer (I really do believe that RPG elements must be expunged in order to get back to the sandbox feeling people remember) they accuse of being malicious compliance. How? My response was 100% on topic and, in my opinion, a good topic for conversation and thought.

And then what about that whole conversation about how faatal is just an employee and not really authorized to make official statements and it can't be anyone other than Rick or Joel but now suddenly my comments in a random ideas thread have to be taken as official statements because I have the title of Community Moderator? So I rank higher than faatal and pretty much lateral to Joel and Rick while at the same time not even being an employee? How....?

I believe that everyone who hates the direction of the game over the past few years has to ask themselves if the devs roll back some of the progression systems that a person doesn't like why not roll back all of them just in case there's someone else who doesn't like the others that that person is fine with? This is a real question and not just to stir up trouble.

If you continue to read that other thread I go into more depth about why I think Alpha 10 is probably the best version to base a survival sandbox game off of because it was the last version to not have any overt RPG elements added.

 

[Samcharles]

Yup their opinion counts just as much as everyone else. They also have extra responsibilities as being a mod on an official forum by extension represents TFP's despite what is claimed..

What i believe the OP is calling out is the apparent double standards where its ok for one party to make a statement without clarifying "its their Opinion" and another by not stating its an opinion is held to another standard. I also dont believe he is the first to point this out


It would definitely sort out a lot of the issues for PVP. I have to agree with you going back to a no progression system for sandbox would be a option. plus gives the modders a clean slate to do what they want.

What Roland had said was in response to this: But... for the sake of brevity, how about this: How about presenting your own solution for the current state of affairs, or improving on the solution that I just provided to you? In other words, provide a productive outcome to resolve the issues at hand... because when it comes right down to it, arguing semantics is just a waste of time.

The person asking the question asked for Roland to provide his own solution to the asked question, not TFP's. What HammerDano posted was taken out of context. So in this case your argument doesn't hold any water.

Edit: Apologies if this sounds like I am just repeating what Roland says above. I was typing this while was he was writing his post.

 

[Charger265]

I was in the thread and did read your comments there before posting to make sure i was clear in the context and understanding. On the face of things you didnt do anything wrong as it was just your opinion and it was replying to a specific question pointing to a time which "could be / not be" classed as the true sandbox mode. It just wanst 100% clear, as others have been the subject of that clarity.

What is irritating to me is that Hammer sees nefarious intent in everything. It also irritates me that he misquoted me.

Yup i sure know how that feels...

 

[Kalen]

The fundamental principle I feel making people feel lost is traders and quests. Unless you get rid of that or fix it no amount of jars or LBD will fill that gap.

Now it's pretty unreasonable to get rid of them and even if you do many POIs have been transformed into mini dungeons with a linear layout.

Going forward, the direction we should be aiming for, they should develop less linear POIs that are not filled with as many locked doors.

Furthermore, we need alternatives to questing. Things like bandits in remnant POIs and remnant POIs offering more function than just trash buildings people avoid. I understand they developed them to ease the load on systems but we really need alternatives to questing and remnant POI redesigns would help a lot. Add proper loot throughout remnant POIs with more zombies which shouldn't be an issue with the nee spawning systems.

I think another huge issue (at least to me) is that you can pretty much find any kind of loot in any POI. It used to be that if you wanted tools, you'd look for a working stiff because that was the only place you'd find working stiff crates. If you wanted books, you'd look for a crack a book because that was one of the only places to get a lot of books. Now, POIs are fairly generic you can find any kind of crate in a POI so there is no reason to hunt for specific places. Combine that with questing and you just followed the quests... there is almost zero reason to explore, just follow the bread crumbs and get everything you need.

 

[Lax]

... there is almost zero reason to explore, just follow the bread crumbs and get everything you need.

Not sure if I would go that far. I'm sure there are others out there like me who just like the idea of randomly exploring game worlds without any hand holding at all.

For example, I was heading back to base and stumbled across a seemingly odd looking tree stump that had a camera attached to it. Missed it at first but went back later to discover the camera was pointing to the entrance of a small POI, Prepper's Den.

Absolutely love discovering things like that on my own without any direct instructions from the game.

 

[Kalen]

Not sure if I would go that far. I'm sure there are others out there like me who just like the idea of randomly exploring game worlds without any hand holding at all.

For example, I was heading back to base and stumbled across a seemingly odd looking tree stump that had a camera attached to it. Missed it at first but went back later to discover the camera was pointing to the entrance of a small POI, Prepper's Den.

Absolutely love discovering things like that on my own without any direct instructions from the game.

I'm sure you're not alone in that, my point is that there is no longer any in game reason to do so.

 

[Jugom]

***snip***.

THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT.

***snip***.

Thanks for the official announcement. Imma go post it in discord news now.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

there is almost zero reason to explore, just follow the bread crumbs and get everything you need.

There's been much talk of late about looting supposedly making crafting pointless or obsolete. Ergo, why I think loot (and trader "rewards") have become so generic and undesirable the vast majority of the time, especially in more recent updates with the added bonus of loot losing its 'pleasant surprise,' rare RNG chance. It's just another example of providing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, afic.

All the systems should be able to stand on their own. Those who don't want to craft a lot should be able to find what they need in loot, trader rewards, purchasable inventory and vice versa with rare chances of finding something so good it may actually change your plans. Mining, etc., likewise.

Let the min-maxers min-max, but -- please -- leave something for everyone else to look forward to.

It used to be that if you wanted tools, you'd look for a working stiff because that was the only place you'd find working stiff crates. If you wanted books, you'd look for a crack a book because that was one of the only places to get a lot of books.

That's still somewhat true, but I used to wonder why I was being expected to tackle military installations, for example, if I wasn't going to find any military gear in it, but only generic loot. Thanks. I think you just answered that question.

On a somewhat related note, someone made the point in another thread that, when something unique comes along, it winds up being so overused, there's nothing special about it anymore. Screamer, spitter, frostclaw, et alia, are excellent examples. Same is true with genercizing loot. Where's the thrill of special encounters and rare items when there aren't any anymore?