PC When will A17 experimental be released 3?

[beHypE]

Ark, the game that developed a DLC while still in Early Access? Other games obviously have also some customs that are surprising to the players :cocksure: Is that better or worse than long release cycles?
I assume Ark entered EA when it was already developed much farther than 7days, to what degree I don't know. But it is nearly impossible that they could put out Ark from zero in only 2 years. If the lower layers are fixed (and it sounds like ark already did that before ever going into EA) you probably can avoid wipes much better. It may also be possible that the Ark developers took more of their development time to please the players, who knows?

One thing that really differentiates Ark and 7days is the voxel part. Ark's only innovation is on the highest layer, the dinosaurs could have been horses with nearly zero difference in development time. Ark is from a programmers perspective a very conventional game (AFAIK, I don't own or play it). They could practically take one of the available graphics engines and use that (and other middleware) in default mode so to speak. You could compare it to a house where the ground floor is already 80% finished and you just need to add the top floor.

7days innovation is bigger and on the lower layers. And that means that they have to develop their own solutions where other games just take what the graphics engine offers and they loose much more time experimenting how this and that works with voxels. It's like a house where they have to not only change the 80% finished ground floor but then also create custom windows because the usual ones don't fit.

While everything you say is true, this is something that is called risk-management in software development, and is supposed to be accounted for in release date estimates.

I won't discuss how much harder voxel-based games development is compared to standard ones, but the one thing you need to keep in mind is that it's nothing new. They've been working on it for 5 years, they realise how hard it is.

The only issue I see with these updates is that they want to stuff in as much as possible in one single update. I haven't been in here for months now, and coming back and seeing actually nothing has changed is a bummer to say the least. Why not work on smaller increments ? Less developing time, less debuging time, less stabilizing time post-experimental release. Making these big-ass patches creates big-ass problems and discourages everyone.

 

[meganoth]

While everything you say is true, this is something that is called risk-management in software development, and is supposed to be accounted for in release date estimates. I won't discuss how much harder voxel-based games development is compared to standard ones, but the one thing you need to keep in mind is that it's nothing new. They've been working on it for 5 years, they realise how hard it is.

It's nothing new for a few game developers, but unless they share their sources (which they don't) TFP had to reinvent much and reimplement everything again. The only resources they would likely have access to are conference talks by those other companies and previous experiences by their own programmers. Since most of them directly went from being modders to TFP developers and voxel games are the big exception, the chance for the latter is pretty low. Since some of them likely modded Minecraft they could have gotten some ideas and knowledge from there. Game development is largely NOT open source where you can easily learn from others.

You are right that MMs attempts at guessing the alpha releases are really bad. But in difference to most other software shops they don't have a liability/obligation to release at a fixed date. Where other developers have to sacrifize quality and quantity they can sacrifize time.

The only issue I see with these updates is that they want to stuff in as much as possible in one single update. I haven't been in here for months now, and coming back and seeing actually nothing has changed is a bummer to say the least. Why not work on smaller increments ? Less developing time, less debuging time, less stabilizing time post-experimental release. Making these big-ass patches creates big-ass problems and discourages everyone.

In regards to A17: They reworked the buff system. And from some sample XML posted recently you can see that it isn't just some upgrade, it is a "new generation" of buff system. As if you were substituting your Ford model T with a Tesla :fat: . That is impossible to do in small steps. And since it is low-level, you can't do it in a version you release in the meantime. So they would have had to make a parallel development of a release version and this "revolution" version. And all the stuff in the release version that uses buffs in any way would have to be scrapped eventually.

Sure, could be done, at the cost of development resources which further delay or otherwise limit the finished game. You can also fault them for doing an (in hindsight) too limited buff system at first. But apart from that, they are making big changes that really make sense. And the only fault is they don't "waste" developer resources to placate the ever grumpy players (don't mean you with it, but whatever they do there are enough impatient players who will find fault anyway)

The question is, is EA just a sneak peak into development (without disturbing it) or is there an "unspoken" obligation to entertain the players?

 

[beHypE]

It's nothing new for a few game developers, but unless they share their sources (which they don't) TFP had to reinvent much and reimplement everything again. The only resources they would likely have access to are conference talks by those other companies and previous experiences by their own programmers. Since most of them directly went from being modders to TFP developers and voxel games are the big exception, the chance for the latter is pretty low. Since some of them likely modded Minecraft they could have gotten some ideas and knowledge from there. Game development is largely NOT open source where you can easily learn from others.

I'm talking about the TFP team, not other developers / outside help. They have been working in this voxel environment for the past 5 years, I guess at some point you just know how tricky some things may be and you incorporate that knowledge into your future estimation ?

In regards to A17: They reworked the buff system. And from some sample XML posted recently you can see that it isn't just some upgrade, it is a "new generation" of buff system. As if you were substituting your Ford model T with a Tesla :fat: . That is impossible to do in small steps. And since it is low-level, you can't do it in a version you release in the meantime. So they would have had to make a parallel development of a release version and this "revolution" version. And all the stuff in the release version that uses buffs in any way would have to be scrapped eventually.
Sure, could be done, at the cost of development resources which further delay or otherwise limit the finished game. You can also fault them for doing an (in hindsight) too limited buff system at first. But apart from that, they are making big changes that really make sense. And the only fault is they don't "waste" developer resources to placate the ever grumpy players (don't mean you with it, but whatever they do there are enough impatient players who will find fault anyway)

Come on... i'm a software developer myself with 8 years experience, not in video games i'll give you that. But you can't just toss at me that reworking a buff system takes a full year. We both know the reason this release takes over a year is because the changelog is going to be 15 pages long. And that's exactly the only thing i'm criticizing.

 

[Shiana]

Come on... i'm a software developer myself with 8 years experience, not in video games i'll give you that. But you can't just toss at me that reworking a buff system takes a full year. We both know the reason this release takes over a year is because the changelog is going to be 15 pages long. And that's exactly the only thing i'm criticizing.

ehm. nope. reinventing/reworking a buff system for sure doesn't take a full year. But you always forget the two things, that cost more time than the actual developing:

1.) Bugfixing - and here is not only the fixing meant, but also the FINDING of the actual bug in the code.......I could tell you stories of code written in one week, bugfixed in 1 hour, but searched for the bug for 1 month.......

2.) This only applies to game, but since it IS a game we are talking about: Balancing. If they created a new Buff system, then the balancing has to be completely redone from scratch. That means enemies, strengths, carry amount, loot to find, etc... a huge time eating pac man

 

[Poojam]

I think it was more the false claim that A17 is “a mess”....

A lot of things that were slated for A17, aren't in A17. Some of the things that are shown in A17 (lootless zombies) are looking pretty iffy too. I'd say someone calling it a mess is probably an understatement.

More to the point though - censoring and penalizing someone for saying "i heard it's a mess from someone purported to be in the know - and it won't happen until 2019" is pretty close to the best way of confirming that criticism.

If it was baseless/untrue, then it would be much easier for anyone with a TFP tag or green name to completely ignore it or say "nope, pure speculation, it's running well - just needs some tweaks - and should be out before then", and move on.

Kind of poopy behavior on your mod's part, and I hope y'all can't sleep at night.

 

[ravend]

I think it was more the false claim that A17 is “a mess”....

Thanx, but I believe it and no I'm not trolling. We are headed into years end. People are going to burn vactions and won't not. Hoildays are coming as well and slow down happens. We don't know when a17 is coming out, other then we are closer then ever. We have no ideas of the big problems or any details, the telltale problem probally isn't helping. Even tho they have nothing to do with a17 itself. Life happens and it's years end, that's why say mid januray.

Ps. Not being mean about it

 

[Bubo]

 

[bloom_meister]

I think it was more the false claim that A17 is “a mess”....

If you read what I wrote, someone else said that was the reason, not me, I simply wanted to know if it was correct.

Guess time will tell on both counts, lets hope I dont get to say 'told you so'

 

[captaine]

Will we see A17 released before the heat death of the universe?

 

[Roland]

A lot of things that were slated for A17, aren't in A17. Some of the things that are shown in A17 (lootless zombies) are looking pretty iffy too. I'd say someone calling it a mess is probably an understatement.
More to the point though - censoring and penalizing someone for saying "i heard it's a mess from someone purported to be in the know - and it won't happen until 2019" is pretty close to the best way of confirming that criticism.

If it was baseless/untrue, then it would be much easier for anyone with a TFP tag or green name to completely ignore it or say "nope, pure speculation, it's running well - just needs some tweaks - and should be out before then", and move on.

Kind of poopy behavior on your mod's part, and I hope y'all can't sleep at night.

There is no inside source that I can think of that would tell Bloom what he is claiming since what he is claiming is patently untrue. Going into the forum and claiming insider knowledge about something that I know for a fact is false is what would have me ready to ban the dude. In other words, from my perspective as someone who is in the know he is lying in order to troll or sew more doubts. And look at ravend...believes Bloom's trash. Ignoring someone who is acting aggressively against the interest of the developers and the game by way of deceit is not how this works and I really don't care whether you think it is poopy or not. Your bias seems to often be towards antagonism as well so of course you would want the moderator staff to let someone push some sort of doubt and gloom campaign by falsely claiming inside sources.

I'm not the one who handled the moderation but I will finish it unless Bloom comes clean. I've reached out to him privately. We'll see where it leads.

A17 is progressing well. There is just way more work than was anticipated getting all the features finished and working with each other and ready to be playable. They are not experiencing setbacks. They continue to update the game almost daily with new builds. You can trust Bloom with his "secret inside source" or take the truth from this actual inside source typing away to you right now. If the game takes until 2019 to finish then it will. But that is not the plan and it is not the hope of the development team. They want it to be wrapped up as quickly as they can and plan for it to be this year. The only thing they have said is likely not September. So we look to October with hope.

 

[CrionLord]

... The only thing they have said is likely not September. So we look to October with hope.

Yeah seeing as September is "Second stroke of midnight and Cinderella's Carriage is about to turn back into a pumpkin" close to being over.

I'd say probably not September at this point

 

[Brimstone]

Some of the things that are shown in A17 (lootless zombies) are looking pretty iffy too. I'd say someone calling it a mess is probably an understatement.

How many times to they have to repeat that zombies aren't "lootless" in A17, they've just changed the way the loot gets dropped? Backpacks instead of torsos.

 

[DaVegaNL]

I think it was more the false claim that A17 is “a mess”....

If you squeeze your eyes reaaaaallly tight, you can see the greatness of A17 in the video of a month ago.

 

[Roland]

If you squeeze your eyes reaaaaallly tight, you can see the greatness of A17 in the video of a month ago.

I guess you mean "you" as in yourself because "I" can keep my own eyes wide open and see the greatness of A17 live tonight on my monitor. Personally, I think they could push it out to experimental any time now but that isn't my call. Only Joel and Rick will decide when the time is right and no amount of complaining or badgering is going to rush their decision.

The testers just recently played to day 21 and even though there were aspects of the game they had to ignore it was definitely playable and not a mess of problems that would prevent them from playing that long. So...once again...I have to doubt Bloom's inside source.

But you keep watching last months video through squinted eyes....

 

[Roland]

How many times to they have to repeat that zombies aren't "lootless" in A17, they've just changed the way the loot gets dropped? Backpacks instead of torsos.

They could repeat it a million times and it wouldn't matter. They aren't listening. Light's on but nobody's home.

 

[Roland]

Yeah seeing as September is "Second stroke of midnight and Cinderella's Carriage is about to turn back into a pumpkin" close to being over.
I'd say probably not September at this point

True. But I also posted it 3 weeks ago long before the clock started chiming.

Just talked to the Huenink Brothers and they said it won't be this weekend starting Sept 7 for sure. Joel said 0% chance it will be ready this week.

Rick said it would be "overly optimistic to get it out before the end of the month".

They are 100% fixing bugs and making sure all of the features work with each other. They know that the community wants it and they know that it has been longer than a year. They understand the frustration that is out there but they are not going to rush what they are doing.

 

[DaVegaNL]

I guess you mean "you" as in yourself because "I" can keep my own eyes wide open and see the greatness of A17 live tonight on my monitor. Personally, I think they could push it out to experimental any time now but that isn't my call. Only Joel and Rick will decide when the time is right and no amount of complaining or badgering is going to rush their decision.
The testers just recently played to day 21 and even though there were aspects of the game they had to ignore it was definitely playable and not a mess of problems that would prevent them from playing that long. So...once again...I have to doubt Bloom's inside source.

But you keep watching last months video through squinted eyes....

To clarify, my comment was simply aimed at the 'A17 is a mess' statement Bloom quoted. I don't have any knowledge or that 'inside source', and I'm not aiming anything at that.

Granted, the A17 I've seen in the last video wasn't a hot mess. Just a regular mess.

- - - Updated - - -

Zombies aren't lootless of course. But the loot rates/quantities have been reduced, no?

 

[SylenThunder]

Zombies aren't lootless of course. But the loot rates/quantities have been reduced, no?

Yeah, so now instead of 90% useless junk in 100% loot, you get 60% useful items in 50% loot. (Not actual numbers, I literally pulled this out of a hat.)

So sure you get less loot, but more of the loot you get will be useful. It benefits you in the end.

 

[Morloc]

They continue to update the game almost daily with new builds.

Please sir, what do they do on the other days?

-Morloc

 

[azmothman]

Per the last Dev blog and/or video from Madmole it didn't sound like per his comments that there were that many bugs before the release, even though I see emails indicating they are performing new fixes and builds every day? Just curious how big is the dev team?