PC What Would Be the Best Zombie AI?

AtomicUs5000

AtomicUs5000

New member
I'm posting this just to start a general discussion of what zombie AI should be like.

Since A17 experimental's builds have become available, I have seen a lot posts regarding the new zombie AI. Some people will complain that the zombies won't run into the spikes or barbed wire in preference of a path that requires a lot of damage to get through. Some people have reported bugs, stating that the zombie AI is not following the paths that they believe the zombies should take, such as up ramps when the path is clear.

From what I have seen, I do believe that the zombie AI is much improved from A17. The zombies no longer run in circles. They dig. When you start beating on a zombie in a wandering horde, you don't have to try to get the attention of all of them... it just happens now. If you are above them and they can'r get to you, they start beating on everything.

However, now it seems as though if you can find the just-right arrangement of your base, it is possible to force the AI to do whatever you like. There are exceptions, due to bugs with ramps, and making this effective is not very easy either since they generally avoid a few of the traps.

In my opinion, the AI should not be too structured in that one can just make a path for them and get the expected results every time. There should be some random choice... possibly where feral zombies are more erratic. Or perhaps ferals, when running into traps, know enough to back away and try a different route. Likewise, some zombies should run into the traps... but not all. Maybe one here and there decides to beat something random down. Basically, I don't believe that "good AI" in this game means that the zombies do exactly what is expected of them each and every time, and when I see those bug reports stating that it should be so, I cringe. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see them doing stupid things either, like always going up stairs to try to jump at you, miss, and try again... over and over again (like they do). Sure it can be fun to discover these things and take advantage of them, but in the end, it is severely detrimental to game quality and replayability. What do you think?

 
TFP are talking about adding a degree of "random behaviour" into the Zombie AI, so that their responses will be less predictable.

 
I like original-style zombies. Mindless freaks who have only one need: to feed on the living. Mindless meaning no intelligence, just stubborn, relentless willpower to eat. Their bodies do not respond to pain, and the only way to kill them is to destroy the brain.

I do not believe this is what TFP has in mind, though, and I'm perfectly okay with that. So here are my preferences:

Personal Expectations of a Zombie: Mentioned above.

7DTD Expectations: Full-blown aggression, minimal intelligence. There's no reason a zombie should be able to consciously make decisions on which route is shorter or safer. They also should not be able to obliterate structures due to their decaying bodies. Give me aggressive, relentless hordes. If I get trapped in a concrete house, then they should not be able to get in. Rather, I should STARVE unless I make an attempt to escape. I'm also fine with them being able to dig, because why not? Dig through rock, though? I don't know about that.

Edit: So I was just thinking about how to make hordes more powerful if not dealt with. What if each zombie had a strength multiplier when in proximity to other zombies? A small horde wouldn't be strong enough to break your house, but if you let the horde grow, then eventually their strength will be capable of breaching walls/doors.

 
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Edit: So I was just thinking about how to make hordes more powerful if not dealt with. What if each zombie had a strength multiplier when in proximity to other zombies? A small horde wouldn't be strong enough to break your house, but if you let the horde grow, then eventually their strength will be capable of breaching walls/doors.
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That very mechanic was introduced into A17.

 
I like original-style zombies. Mindless freaks who have only one need: to feed on the living. Mindless meaning no intelligence, just stubborn, relentless willpower to eat. Their bodies do not respond to pain, and the only way to kill them is to destroy the brain.
I do not believe this is what TFP has in mind, though, and I'm perfectly okay with that. So here are my preferences:

Personal Expectations of a Zombie: Mentioned above.

7DTD Expectations: Full-blown aggression, minimal intelligence. There's no reason a zombie should be able to consciously make decisions on which route is shorter or safer. They also should not be able to obliterate structures due to their decaying bodies. Give me aggressive, relentless hordes. If I get trapped in a concrete house, then they should not be able to get in. Rather, I should STARVE unless I make an attempt to escape. I'm also fine with them being able to dig, because why not? Dig through rock, though? I don't know about that.

Edit: So I was just thinking about how to make hordes more powerful if not dealt with. What if each zombie had a strength multiplier when in proximity to other zombies? A small horde wouldn't be strong enough to break your house, but if you let the horde grow, then eventually their strength will be capable of breaching walls/doors.
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These are good thoughts, and they do sound great in words... but I believe in reality, this would leave you with a game that is worse than A16. I played A16 for probably close to a thousand hours. Over time, I played less and less because it was getting hard to come up with ways to make it difficult. Even without exploiting the mechanics, it was still easy to make a impenetrable base... which makes it boring real fast. Would there be some other way to combat this boredom? Starving isn't enough... you would just wait until morning when horde night is over and destroy them all. Perhaps the issue is that we can even make concrete to begin with. In reality, if we tried from scratch with the materials in game, it would be a very poor concrete... so maybe the pristine look of our crafted concrete is misleading.

Regarding the digging, I do hate that it is unrealistic for these zombies to borough through rock, but if they didn't, then there would be no danger for underground bases. How would you solve that problem?

I agree with the mindlessness though. Most zombies should mindlessly run through traps, with the only goal being to eat your face off. But, again, this would also be bad if they all did this... which is why I think ferals should be a little smarter. You would end up with the same situation of zombies always doing what you expect them to do and the game is "beaten" by day 14.

 
I agree with the mindlessness though. Most zombies should mindlessly run through traps, with the only goal being to eat your face off. But, again, this would also be bad if they all did this... which is why I think ferals should be a little smarter. You would end up with the same situation of zombies always doing what you expect them to do and the game is "beaten" by day 14.
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My own hope is that when A18 drops and we get Bandits, they have the impressive Fataal A17 AI, and that zombies more or less revert to a dumber AI that relies on their sheer number being the threat, not their intelligence at sniffing out the weakest part of my base design.

 
My own hope is that when A18 drops and we get Bandits, they have the impressive Fataal A17 AI, and that zombies more or less revert to a dumber AI that relies on their sheer number being the threat, not their intelligence at sniffing out the weakest part of my base design.
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That makes sense. I don't know if bandits raiding your base will be a thing or not... but it would make sense for them to have this ability. My imagination runs wild, but I can picture them smashing a truck into a weak point to let out a trailer full of zombies... or trained non-zombie dogs. If they have access to molotovs and rocket launchers, we're in trouble.

 
If they know how to get on the roof of your base and bait a horde over to it then it's game over...

 
If they know how to get on the roof of your base and bait a horde over to it then it's game over...
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OMG A24 is so hard with the introduction of bandits!! Make it easier or everyone including me will uninstall!!! Don't make mistakes Like SONY, and make skills increase by DOING.

/first

 
My problem with zombies at present is that they shouldn't actually know the things they know. When you have a solid door and a solid concrete wall, the spikes I'm laying inside shouldn't alter their pathing, but they do! A zombie that learns from experience, and on horde night the experience of the whole horde would be a better direction. Zombies shouldn't know where the most vulnerable point in a base is unless they derive that information from something. Having favored materials to whack on? Absolutely. Wood over Cobblestone over Concrete over Reinforced Concrete over Steel, ... You should be able to fool zombies with weak materials backed by strong, and have them catch onto the game after a few tries.

 
There are a few things they should know:

structural integrity of the block you are currently standing on (so how much dmg do they have to deal until it collapses, in towers for example)

closest possible way to you with as little inbetween

what they should NOT know:

everything they can't see. Basically they follow the smell. But currently they would rather dig through 4 layers of stone than walk through 4 spiketraps that are around 2 corners.

in general they should not be able to get the concept of traps. They are mindless killingmachines with no sense of self preservation.

If there is a completely free (air) block next to it, sure take that.

But don't alter your path by 2 minutes just to avoid spikes. Also they should not want to destroy blocks instead of traps. Traps are basically "free" since selfpreservation isn't an issue. (think if you needed the medication within 10 seconds or you die and every painreceptor in your body is deactivated)

And they should generally not clump together. They should try and rip apart your base, not funnel through one small hole and die instantly.

 
My problem with zombies at present is that they shouldn't actually know the things they know. When you have a solid door and a solid concrete wall, the spikes I'm laying inside shouldn't alter their pathing, but they do! A zombie that learns from experience, and on horde night the experience of the whole horde would be a better direction. Zombies shouldn't know where the most vulnerable point in a base is unless they derive that information from something. Having favored materials to whack on? Absolutely. Wood over Cobblestone over Concrete over Reinforced Concrete over Steel, ... You should be able to fool zombies with weak materials backed by strong, and have them catch onto the game after a few tries.
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I've tried that too, with the spikes on the inside. It makes me wonder if there is a limit to how many blocks through they can "sense" the spikes. It probably calculates straight through all blocks, but you never know.

 
The ai in A17 is honestly too easy to abuse, My current base is indie the big church POI and I knocked out the back stairs, so they literally only have one way in to me, unless they wanna bust thru like 6k hp worth of blocks, Horde night, I just bunch them up and molotov them, the key is to always have a path open to get to you, in my case I made a long staircase, with barbed wire fences on each block, they follow it like a fly to, well you know. Usually fall off the side into more barbed wire when stunned. I only gotta watch out for cop suicide bombs that can take out the stairs, after this they start going for supports, but they have knocked out 6 of the support poles in this poi and it didn't do a thing to it.

Once I can i'll probally put a bladed fan trap or a few on the path I want them to take with some electric fences to slow them down so they get chewed up by the traps more.

I do feel them avoiding traps and how weak the spike traps are currently need to be addressed, I don't use spikes at all in my bases, to much maintence and they can't kill anything on their own like ever, even on nomad. Not saying make them as stupidly strong as they were in a16 but they need to at least be able to kill 1 normal zombie each before it walks off it on nomad. Ferals of course will live thru it. Best thing with barbed wire fences? it stops the spiders from jumping.

When I make my kill path, I make sure its the only viable path for them zombies to take, then line it with traps, the trick is, to not start the traps till a few blocks in about 4 blocks in from the entrance, by then the AI usually won't bother trying to dodge them. Least thats what i've noticed.

The devs also need to re-add the arm/leg dismemberment back in again, I miss that, main reason I liked spikes in a16 was it busted the zombies legs.

 
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These are good thoughts, and they do sound great in words... but I believe in reality, this would leave you with a game that is worse than A16. I played A16 for probably close to a thousand hours. Over time, I played less and less because it was getting hard to come up with ways to make it difficult. Even without exploiting the mechanics, it was still easy to make a impenetrable base... which makes it boring real fast. Would there be some other way to combat this boredom? Starving isn't enough... you would just wait until morning when horde night is over and destroy them all. Perhaps the issue is that we can even make concrete to begin with. In reality, if we tried from scratch with the materials in game, it would be a very poor concrete... so maybe the pristine look of our crafted concrete is misleading.
Regarding the digging, I do hate that it is unrealistic for these zombies to borough through rock, but if they didn't, then there would be no danger for underground bases. How would you solve that problem?

I agree with the mindlessness though. Most zombies should mindlessly run through traps, with the only goal being to eat your face off. But, again, this would also be bad if they all did this... which is why I think ferals should be a little smarter. You would end up with the same situation of zombies always doing what you expect them to do and the game is "beaten" by day 14.
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I agree; the only way these types of zombies would be a threat is if MASSIVE hordes existed, but obviously that is a frame breaker in its current state. However, someone did post a plausible way to make zombies like this a threat: bandits. Now THAT is what the game needs to increase difficulty while maintaining mindless zombies. I'm super excited for the future of this game.

I'm imagining bandits with special perks, i.e., a bandit that leads hordes to your base (really he acts as a screamer, spawning a horde when he finds you), or a demolition bandit whose sole purpose in life is to destroy what you've built.

 
The ai in A17 is honestly too easy to abuse, My current base is indie the big church POI and I knocked out the back stairs, so they literally only have one way in to me, unless they wanna bust thru like 6k hp worth of blocks, Horde night, I just bunch them up and molotov them, the key is to always have a path open to get to you, in my case I made a long staircase, with barbed wire fences on each block, they follow it like a fly to, well you know. Usually fall off the side into more barbed wire when stunned. I only gotta watch out for cop suicide bombs that can take out the stairs, after this they start going for supports, but they have knocked out 6 of the support poles in this poi and it didn't do a thing to it.
Once I can i'll probally put a bladed fan trap or a few on the path I want them to take with some electric fences to slow them down so they get chewed up by the traps more.

I do feel them avoiding traps and how weak the spike traps are currently need to be addressed, I don't use spikes at all in my bases, to much maintence and they can't kill anything on their own like ever, even on nomad. Not saying make them as stupidly strong as they were in a16 but they need to at least be able to kill 1 normal zombie each before it walks off it on nomad. Ferals of course will live thru it. Best thing with barbed wire fences? it stops the spiders from jumping.

When I make my kill path, I make sure its the only viable path for them zombies to take, then line it with traps, the trick is, to not start the traps till a few blocks in about 4 blocks in from the entrance, by then the AI usually won't bother trying to dodge them. Least thats what i've noticed.

The devs also need to re-add the arm/leg dismemberment back in again, I miss that, main reason I liked spikes in a16 was it busted the zombies legs.
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The only ways I have made spikes somewhat effective so far is either by burying them, flush with the ground and a few layers deep so that when they break there is another below.... or by making your kill path narrow and zig-zagged with the spikes on each side so that when they clump together, they tend to push into the spikes. In this case, some barbed wire (not too much or they won't take the path) will make them clump so that they will hit the spikes.

 
I'd love to see a mix of AI types....fodder zombies that mindlessly surge forward, hitting anything in their way. Intelligent zombies that follow complex pathing and strike weak points (engineer zombies would work here). Hulking zombies that prefer to target structures near the player (tourist or cop) in an effort to blow open walls or bring down towers. Climbing zombies that try to get up to or above the player and attack from on top. Flying zombies that dive bomb (buzzards). Decaying zombies with acidic blood or something that cause damage to walls and floors where they die (little girl zombie?).

It would benefit the game and solve zombie complaints on multiple fronts...

People complaining the zombies obliterate their base would benefit from reduced damage on any ONE point of their base (current zombies ALL swarm a specific point).

People complaining about too-easily exploited AIs and how they can do minimal prep to abuse Pathing AI would get their challenge with enemies that make them defend with well-rounded bases.

People looking for just "more challenge" overall can crank the horde numbers way up and deal with a blood moon horde that hits them hard in several different avenues

 
I'd love to see a mix of AI types....fodder zombies that mindlessly surge forward, hitting anything in their way. Intelligent zombies that follow complex pathing and strike weak points (engineer zombies would work here). Hulking zombies that prefer to target structures near the player (tourist or cop) in an effort to blow open walls or bring down towers. Climbing zombies that try to get up to or above the player and attack from on top. Flying zombies that dive bomb (buzzards). Decaying zombies with acidic blood or something that cause damage to walls and floors where they die (little girl zombie?).
It would benefit the game and solve zombie complaints on multiple fronts...

People complaining the zombies obliterate their base would benefit from reduced damage on any ONE point of their base (current zombies ALL swarm a specific point).

People complaining about too-easily exploited AIs and how they can do minimal prep to abuse Pathing AI would get their challenge with enemies that make them defend with well-rounded bases.

People looking for just "more challenge" overall can crank the horde numbers way up and deal with a blood moon horde that hits them hard in several different avenues
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Sounds good to me, and makes use of existing zombies well.

I would also like to see one try to dig under a wall (dogs, bears) instead of hitting the wall, even if the player is not below.

 
My own hope is that when A18 drops and we get Bandits, they have the impressive Fataal A17 AI, and that zombies more or less revert to a dumber AI that relies on their sheer number being the threat, not their intelligence at sniffing out the weakest part of my base design.
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This. 100 times.

 
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