PC What can be done for game balance?
- Thread starter Slingblade2040
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FileMachete
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Ha! Very true
.. I was trying to use words that might translate clearer for Bluff as english isn't their primary language (see the edit history).Edit: seeing as I had 'good intentions' that likely means that I only managed to come up with word strings that will be translated into some horrific insult or deviant sex act... (sigh) mama did tell me the road to hell was paved with good intentions...
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BLUFF_CATCHER
New member
Track limit on time?
Youre right! Thanks!Ha! Very true
Edit: seeing as I had 'good intentions' that likely means that I only managed to come up with word strings that will be translated into some horrific insult or deviant sex act... (sigh) mama did tell me the road to hell was paved with good intentions...
FileMachete
New member
There is no tracking of who placed a landmine currently.
Without knowing who placed a landmine they can not award experiance when a landmine kills a zombie.
While they might be able to temporarily track ownership of a landmine, I would not expect the developers to implement this. They have a large number of things they need to do in order to meet their objectives and delivery dates.
Sorry again, but I would not expect them to ever award experiance for landmine zombie kills.
You list a lot of weapons, most of them don't provide any noticable difference to current weapons. In Detail:
No difference in gameplay to the machete
In the game. You can use axes as weapons, they are just not as effective as the other pure weapons for balance reasons. Lots of people use axes as weapons because they save a slot and are good enough if you specced in miner69er
No difference in gameplay to the spear. Long range prodding weapon
No practical difference in gameplay to the club.
This marks the first really new weapon type you list. Yes, shields were suggested a few times and TFP were thinking about it but seem to have decided that adding that would involve more effort than it would bring and there were more important features needed.
INT stun baton generally does that. As I already told you in the list of likely A20 features there likely will be further melee weapons in the INT line because there is still a gap there.
Agreed. Not in the game. Has been asked for, might possibly get into the game, or not. There are lots of AOE damage weapons in the game, from molotovs to the rocket launcher.
Its called an arm, it launches grenades. No practical difference to the stuff in the game
All of these sound like you want a tier4 of bows/crossbows. If they do this they probably need to expand all other weapon lines with a tier4 as well. Which won't happen till gold, I expect this to happen in an expansion or 7D2D 2.
There is a chance that one or more of this list might get included as a legendary weapon though. Wait and see.
Sorry, but auto shotgun has a lot more damage for less ammo than the m60, but have you noticed that the range is just ~5 or so blocks? I don't have the exact numbers, but range of shotgun is very low, at 6 blocks the damage is either 0 or only half damage, not sure? So stand on a high tower, say 6-12 blocks above ground and try to kill zombies on the ground with your shotgun and then the m60. Then build a very low horde base with a door to group the zombies, shoot into them with a shotgun for half a night, then with an m60 half a night, notice how much ammo it cost you and how much time you have to toil in a mine to replace that ammo. I promise you it will be much less with a shotgun.
It has to be said: If your reason to play a game is access to lots and lots of weapons, play a shooter, not this hybrid of many genres including shooter.
I can promise you if TFP added a mace for example, you would play that mace for 2 hours, notice there is not much difference to a club (except maybe a small range difference) and ask for the next weapon to be included. TFP, a small indie developer can't win a race for contents with its user base, you will always tire of new content with not much difference to existing content faster than they can generate it. Big companies like Bethesda and Blizzard learned this fact years ago the hard way.
PS: By the way, madmole just said this in the dev diary:
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Like i said if we go with that logic we could have cut out lots of the weapons from the game already.meganoth said:
Like what difference does the revolver offer compared to the pistol, the sledgehammer compared to the club, gameplaywise they are essentially the same the only differences boil down to damage numbers. Ak to m60 literally is just a "shoot faster" mode.
Longer range, capatable of blocking damage.meganoth said:
Functional change, large entitiy damage and minimal block damage.meganoth said:
Pikes and their kind are not throwable and mostly used with wide hacking movements apart from poking.meganoth said:
Maces are designed agains armor and hatchets are usually treated as throwable weapons and because they are bladed weapons they can be used the same way as we use the stone axe.meganoth said:
And yet we still got the rocket launcher.meganoth said:
Grenade launchers are middle range explosive weapons, the idea is that you aim and shoot. Theres no aim->arm->throw to get the results just aim->shoot.
These are all early medieval weapons so they should all be obtainable before the compound ones. Neither of them is modern in fact the repeater crossbow was created before the famous english longbow.meganoth said:
And yet again you dismissed most of my weapon suggestions here because they only offer damage and range differences. Also you seem to be analyzing this from the wrong angle i said the m60 according to your logic has no place ingame because its just the ak47 with more ammo and slightly higher firerate.meganoth said:
Same deal with the auto shotgun what is essentially the same as the pump shotgun with the numbers changed around, its still the same gameplay nothing changed, hunting rifle vs marksman rifle stayed essentially the same you dont change any strategy when using the marksman version.
I get it that you dont want to see more weapons ingame but atleast use a logic what cant be countered by whats already ingame.
RipClaw
Well-known member
We used to have fewer weapons in the game. I was happy with that but some players wanted more weapons. Especially more guns.
As far as I know the plan is that each skill tree has at least 3 tiers of one melee weapon and one ranged weapon each. That's not quite uniform. For example, Strength has two melee weapons with 3 tiers each and Intelligence has only one melee weapon with only one tier. Agility has the SMG and the Desert Vulture each as tier 3 ranged weapons. Additionally, two tiers of the crossbow and 3 tiers of the bow as second ranged weapon.
The revolver has a higher firepower and shoots slower than the pistol. But the pistol has a bigger magazine than the revolver and you can expand the magazine size with a mod. And the reload animation of the revolver is much longer.
The difference between the club and the sledgehammer is, besides the damage, the timing and the stamina consumption.
But the hammer has the bonus that it can stun a whole group of zombies at once. The hammer is good for crowd control but not so good when you want to fight against fast single enemies.
The difference between the AK and the M60, apart from the damage and the rate of fire, is the size of the magazine and how long it takes to reload. That you have to take into account when planning your defense. That's why some people use the Tactical Assault Rifle instead of the M60 because they find it takes too long to reload on the M60. They prefer to reload quickly rather than having a bigger magazine.
Blocking is not a part of the fighting system.
What you seem to neglect is that someone has to create the models for the weapons and also for the mods. Furthermore the stats of the weapons have to be balanced and also the costs for crafting them.
You also need to add new animations for the weapons. If a sword is wielded like a club, it looks ridiculous.
This all takes time and development resources.
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FileMachete
New member
@RipClaw I get what you're saying about devs having to create or buy the models, make the animations, create new xml entries etc. All of which I'd guess take significantly longer than most of us would think. And this isn't really directed at you, it's more for general consumption, so please don't take this as a personal thing. I just happened to read your post and it brought to mind something I keep forgetting to bring up. 
But one thing that I think gets ignored is these back & forths about more items, weapons in particular, is that for "balance" there really only needs to be one item that compares to another classes similar Tier/Quality, if that's needed.
Other items can & should be different enough in stats that they're, well, different.
Put another way, have the 'main' items comparable across classes, so the other things don't have to be.
Take a bit of an extreme example. Say they added a .50 Cal Sniper rifle. Tons of damage, maybe able to one-shot a Demolisher. Sounds OPd.
But there are a lot of ways to limit it.
Bolt action instead of a semi-auto, or even a semi, but takes a long time to reload. Slow rate of fire. Expensive ammo.
Really low 'mobility', no way would you try to use it as a main weapon clearing pois.
It's main purpose is to take out the really tough enemys during horde night.
Which is nothing we can't already do with an AK, M60, Marksman, Sniper, Explosive Arrows/Bolts, etc.
Which I get is @meganoths & MMs counter.
Or as I mentioned in another thread, add in a Dirtbike (off road motorccyle). Make it the fastest off road vehicle, perfect for scouting for new towns or if there isn't a decent road between two. Tweak it a bit so it can get some air. New Fun factor, might even see some racing in MP.
A Deuce and a half. No idea if the model they have in the army camp could be mobile, I'd guess not. But can you imagine being able to get one, and it could haul say 4 chest worth of your junk? Would sure make moving day a lot easier. Factor in the upcoming higher difficulty biomes. Would sure be nice to be able to make only one or two long trips to relocate instead of say four.
I'm, and I think @Solomon , are just trying to shine some light on the general idea that item variety isn't just 'vanity' stuff, it can encourage more player investment, more archetypes like a ninja assasin. More things to find or collect, new things to try out.
Consider it from this angle; how long, or how much $$ does it cost TFPs for each new House POI? How much would adding a Sword cost? I have no idea myself, plus different skill sets etc. Yet very similar logic as to why there are so many house POIs could be fairly applied to more items.
"if you're always seeing the same dozen houses each game that gets boring" very true, and we definately want more than a dozen houses right?
And yes, I've seen MMs recent posts, I know this isn't going to happen. And I actually agree that Bandits are far more important. Just wish they'd planned/budgetted to add in some iconic things.
But one thing that I think gets ignored is these back & forths about more items, weapons in particular, is that for "balance" there really only needs to be one item that compares to another classes similar Tier/Quality, if that's needed.
Other items can & should be different enough in stats that they're, well, different.
Put another way, have the 'main' items comparable across classes, so the other things don't have to be.
Take a bit of an extreme example. Say they added a .50 Cal Sniper rifle. Tons of damage, maybe able to one-shot a Demolisher. Sounds OPd.
But there are a lot of ways to limit it.
Bolt action instead of a semi-auto, or even a semi, but takes a long time to reload. Slow rate of fire. Expensive ammo.
Really low 'mobility', no way would you try to use it as a main weapon clearing pois.
It's main purpose is to take out the really tough enemys during horde night.
Which is nothing we can't already do with an AK, M60, Marksman, Sniper, Explosive Arrows/Bolts, etc.
Which I get is @meganoths & MMs counter.
Or as I mentioned in another thread, add in a Dirtbike (off road motorccyle). Make it the fastest off road vehicle, perfect for scouting for new towns or if there isn't a decent road between two. Tweak it a bit so it can get some air. New Fun factor, might even see some racing in MP.
A Deuce and a half. No idea if the model they have in the army camp could be mobile, I'd guess not. But can you imagine being able to get one, and it could haul say 4 chest worth of your junk? Would sure make moving day a lot easier. Factor in the upcoming higher difficulty biomes. Would sure be nice to be able to make only one or two long trips to relocate instead of say four.
I'm, and I think @Solomon , are just trying to shine some light on the general idea that item variety isn't just 'vanity' stuff, it can encourage more player investment, more archetypes like a ninja assasin. More things to find or collect, new things to try out.
Consider it from this angle; how long, or how much $$ does it cost TFPs for each new House POI? How much would adding a Sword cost? I have no idea myself, plus different skill sets etc. Yet very similar logic as to why there are so many house POIs could be fairly applied to more items.
"if you're always seeing the same dozen houses each game that gets boring" very true, and we definately want more than a dozen houses right?
And yes, I've seen MMs recent posts, I know this isn't going to happen. And I actually agree that Bandits are far more important. Just wish they'd planned/budgetted to add in some iconic things.
Cutting would need (implementation and balance) effort as well, so even if it did make sense they might not do it for the same reason they don't add every idea they like.
Generally the devs have limited developer resources and (in their own words) thousands of ideas they would like to add to the game. So they have to pick their fights.
If you only have 4 weapons in a game, a fifth weapon is a major improvement for the game (25% more weapons so to speak). If you already have 25 weapons in a game, adding the 26th costs as much implementation effort as adding the 6th, but its impact for the game is much less.
The number 25 was just an example by the way, it is hard to count distinct weapons in 7D2D. Most weapon families in this game have to be counted as just one weapon with different damage tiers (spears for example are just one weapon, but not handguns)
That is by the way the answer to the question you thought you asked but didn't: The M60 is the upgrade to the tactical assault rifle which is the upgrade to the AK. While still somewhat different so people actually use tactical assault instead of M60, it is basically just one weapon. Because of the M60 maybe 2. You generally replace the less powerful version with the better when it gets available.
Ok, if they added blocking, that would make the sword somewhat new. In the game it would be very similar in function to the stun of the club, but the stun also stops them while a blocking would only prevent an attack.
Again, make the axe too good and everyone will use it because of its double function. We already had that once in 7D2D and everyone used the axe. Because you would save a toolbelt slot AND perk points (you need only miner69 to be good at mining and axe combat) this would make STR even stronger and anyone an idiot when not using the axe. If they decided to do that they would have to redesign STR a bit, for example making a separate axe fighting perk. But then STR would have 3 melee weapon families. Overkill?
Yes, it is an idea they could do if they didn't have many many other ideas also worth their time.
All well and good, but somewhere the differences start to look minimal. More variations of essentially the same. We have a throwable weapon already, we have guns against armor and I think one melee weapon decreases armor(?). Wide hacking movements, if you mean an AOE attack, we have the sledgehammer for that.
If TFP had the same amount of developers as Bethesda, they could do it and it might be worth it even with minimal differences, but they are a small indie developer.
Ah, I was mixing up grenade launcher with mortar (i,e, a ballistic curve launcher). Sorry, language barrier. I should have said rocket launcher as the weapon that is already in the game.
And the rocket launcher is simply tier3 of the explosives line. pipe bombs-> frag grenades -> contact grenades -> rocket launcher. I don't see where the grenade launcher would add anything. If TFP ever adds a fourth tier everywhere, then yes, the grenade launcher would be a likely candidate to bolster that line.
I never argued with realism, I talked about differences in gameplay. If 7D2D wanted to depict reality, they would need to add A LOT more than a few weapons.
Bows and crossbow are balanced to provide phenomenal stealth damage and with explosive arrows have their own AOE, but no real sustained firepower. If AGI proved to be too weak generally, they surely could add a repeater crossbow.
You probably meant it, but you never did mention the AK when you said something about not needing the M60 because of game play differences. It looked to me like you were comparing M60 with shotgun. Just a misunderstanding.
I hope I could explain it above, but again: The different tiers of similar weapons in a weapon family provide the same function as your perks, advancing and improving your capabilities, specializing you to take on tougher and tougher enemies. You are supposed to fight basic zombies with a pipe rifle, then advance to AK to feel superior. Then ferals and glowies turn up and you will add perk points and look for a tactical rifle to better deal with them. Then boss zombies try to kill you and you need the firepower of the M60 to deal with them. At least that is probably the sort of balance TFP might think about.
I would have nothing against more weapons if they were free. But they cost in other features that can't be implemented because a team of programmers, game designers and graphics designers has to implement, balance and draw the new weapons.
Small children want a new toy whenever they see one because they don't see their parents have to pay for the toy
. Do some modding and you might learn to estimate what time and effort a feature like a new gun might cost in development resources as well as what it brings to the game.
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@RipClaw I get what you're saying about devs having to create or buy the models, make the animations, create new xml entries etc. All of which I'd guess take significantly longer than most of us would think. And this isn't really directed at you, it's more for general consumption, so please don't take this as a personal thing. I just happened to read your post and it brought to mind something I keep forgetting to bring up.
But one thing that I think gets ignored is these back & forths about more items, weapons in particular, is that for "balance" there really only needs to be one item that compares to another classes similar Tier/Quality, if that's needed.
Other items can & should be different enough in stats that they're, well, different.
Put another way, have the 'main' items comparable across classes, so the other things don't have to be.
Take a bit of an extreme example. Say they added a .50 Cal Sniper rifle. Tons of damage, maybe able to one-shot a Demolisher. Sounds OPd.
But there are a lot of ways to limit it.
Bolt action instead of a semi-auto, or even a semi, but takes a long time to reload. Slow rate of fire. Expensive ammo.
Really low 'mobility', no way would you try to use it as a main weapon clearing pois.
It's main purpose is to take out the really tough enemys during horde night.
Which is nothing we can't already do with an AK, M60, Marksman, Sniper, Explosive Arrows/Bolts, etc.
Which I get is @meganoths & MMs counter.
It really sounds too powerful if it one-hits Demos, even if the reload takes 5 seconds or more. Lots of people playing the game can make headshots with a high rate of success. If you want such a wet-dream weapon, use a mod. Or simply wait until MM had a chance to play PER, it is quite evident that PER is the worst attribute by far and needs a big push to be somewhat comparable to STR or FOR. I don't have the smallest idea what they will change when they balance PER, but it is perfectly possible that the sniper damage will be increased.
I played a mod in A18 that had such a dirtbike (maybe you got the idea from there). It was absolutely OP and the only vehicle I used because it was so fast (and I had a PC and server that could handle it, my previous server was too weak and produced heavy tearing). But for technical reasons that speed can only happen in a mod. TFP has to look at what minimal PC speccs they want to support.
The 4x4 is in the same niche as your Deuce. And at least our group mostly ignores it and prefers the motorbike or the gyro. If they add a Deuce they could as well remove the 4x4, or simply add more inv slots to the 4x4.
But like your sniper idea above, you look at an area that TFP has said is not finished. I thought you were aware of the plan to add vehicle mods and vehicle damage to the game? So you are knocking on already open doors, maybe mods will fullfill your wishes, maybe they'll eventually add another vehicle while working on it (but I doubt it).
Well, but here's the thing: TFP has a few (maybe 2 or 3) designers specializing in world building. They are good at architecture and each one of them designs about one tier4 POI per month. They can't be used for anything else, they can't program, they can't even be used to design or paint a weapon. They are specialists and if they are good TFP might want to keep them, especially because the next game needs those designers as well. At the moment more POIs are only nice as you say, but essentially they are cheap.
Making a new weapon costs a whole team of people: It needs item designers to draw the weapon. It needs game designers to put the weapon somewhere and give it appropriate values and maybe balance other stuff to fit together with this weapon. It needs animators to make the attack (and reload?) of the weapon believable. And it often needs programmers to add new functionality the weapon might have. And especially programmers are a very scarce respource and good programmers are very hard to find and expensive.
Now don't get me wrong, even though that sounds like much, if the feature is worth it or if there is something missing in the game it is totally worth it do put all those people to the task. So they will do pipe weapons because tier0 exists in the game (with blunderbuss, spear, club and arrow) but has obvious holes. But try to make a case for a totally new weapon line with 4 tiers to add to the game and it isn't that easy. Since you want a dirtbike and a Deuce, are you okay to not get them because the resources are expended for a sword that Solomon wants?
What would you do if you had to decide just now what programmer John Doe and designer James Smith work on for the next 3 months: A) finishing the already started legendary weapons feature, B) adding vehicle mods and damage or C) adding a new sword line of weapons and a grenade launcher.
A,B or C? What will it be for you?
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Boidster
New member
D) Plenty of room for a cot in John's and James' offices and they really don't like seeing their families that much anyway, do they? Fifteen minutes in the company atrium is plenty of "recreation time" for anybody. STFU and GBTW John & James! GIMMEH MAH FLAMETHROWER!
KennyBMallNinja
New member
Not sure if it has been mentioned but a perk that lets you disarm landmines would be nice as well.
RipClaw
Well-known member
Something like this exists. Urban Combat Vol 5 "Landmine won't detonate when stepped on".Not sure if it has been mentioned but a perk that lets you disarm landmines would be nice as well.
KennyBMallNinja
New member
I was thinking disarm so they could be moved to another location but that does work well also since the dog kennel had a ton around them.
@FileMachete Yes that was my point, more variety never hurts. Just like how we need more and more Poi's so the gameplay doesnt feel stale i think the same way as towards items.
While i get what @meganoth says and how these guys are too specialised to do another job, i still think that it would only benefit the game to expand items the players can fiddle with because every second i spend in the game looking for specific blade weapon/potted plant means that im here enjoying myself.
I would argue that we dont necessearly need to create new designs to make new weapons (most people cant tell the difference between AK47, AK74 and AK-15), so even a primitive modlet approach could go far as long as players concentrate on their preferred stats instead of the item looks and if thats too much it can go into the mod system so instead of finding an actual weapon you get yourself the repeater mod.
As for items sadly they do need graphics so a designer for them is necesseary.
@meganoth Sorry i thought i mentioned originally what i make the comparsions with.
While i get what @meganoth says and how these guys are too specialised to do another job, i still think that it would only benefit the game to expand items the players can fiddle with because every second i spend in the game looking for specific blade weapon/potted plant means that im here enjoying myself.
I would argue that we dont necessearly need to create new designs to make new weapons (most people cant tell the difference between AK47, AK74 and AK-15), so even a primitive modlet approach could go far as long as players concentrate on their preferred stats instead of the item looks and if thats too much it can go into the mod system so instead of finding an actual weapon you get yourself the repeater mod.
As for items sadly they do need graphics so a designer for them is necesseary.
@meganoth Sorry i thought i mentioned originally what i make the comparsions with.
RipClaw
Well-known member
FileMachete
New member
Like I said, bit of an extreme example.
Balance/OP wise, consider damage over time. Say top tier/qual fully modded current Sniper takes 6 good head shots on demo to take one down. I haven't seen one yet so no idea what it's mag capacity is, but factor in reload time across x demos. For example sake add in one miss per demo as well. Now theres an 'effectiveness over time' metric to measure the .50 with. Can be set so that if the .50 user has same miss ratio as the 1 in 7 example, there's basically no advantage, but if they can do better than that, then using the .50 starts to pay small dividends beyond just the 'cool' factor.
And the normal sniper would still be better against mid-tough zeds like ferals, due to it's higher rate of fire and it's lower energy round(mats cost). The .50 would be 'over hitting' by quite a bit, so yes, one-shotting, but the sniper is 2 or 3 shotting and knocking more down in the same time period.
So in this case it's more vanity than anything else, but it is significantly different playstyle wise, at least to some. Also an immersion factor. Again likely a small minority but it goes to the 'bullet sponge' perception, something that personally bugs me quite a bit.
I said "fastest off road", not 30 meters/second lol. Haven't seen that mod, I was thinking of a multiplayer vid Kage did where they had a speed mod and the motorcycles were stupid fast and getting all kinds of air. Was pretty funny as they were so fast they were on the verge of uncontrollable.
Right now all vehicles struggle going over some of the non-road terrain, and they're all really slowed down by even fairly minor slopes. If the dirtbike just performed better in those conditions it would distinguish itself. The air bit would be for fun.
In the other post ref vehicles I was factoring in the upcoming vehicle crit system. As another advantage a dirtbike could have would be none/very-low damage when off roading, compared to the street hog.
Totally agree that TFPs have to throttle speeds for min spec.
Have to disagree here. Could simply be rw time behind the wheel of both, but these are very different vehicles. Just loading up two peoples gear for a week of off road camping pretty much fills a jeep. Taking a duece and a half out for a camping trip (the Army calls it 'field exercises' so congress will fund it, heh), you could throw in a couple quads, the kids, the dogs, heck a propane fridge and tow the jeep as well.
As I said in the other post, the vehicles the pimps chose are good fits. No argument.
Of the two, dirtbike duece, I'd rather see the duece. Late game relocating is a huge pain in the backside. And while before relocating was really just because you 'wanted' to, with the upcoming biome difficulty changes I'd view adding in a large truck with huge storage as a way to incentivise trying out the tougher biomes.
Yep, looking forward to these. Also agree it's not likely that they'll add any new vehicles. Posted about Dirtbike/Car/Deuce to make a case for them. While the door is still open, if only a small crack. Unlike the 'weapons' room where that door is closed and locked, heh.
Totally agree and understand with what you wrote about poi desingers vs. skills/peeps needed to add new weapons.
Wasn't thinking of adding a new weapons line.. maybe I'm not considering the 'classes' and stated design goal related to them of having T0-4, one each melee and ranged, as set in stone, but that's a rabbit hole we should avoid.
Yep. Variety. New shinys. I'm not too picky at this point lol.
On the face it seems clear that it'd be A. But. and gonna apologise in advance because I'm making unflatering assumptions here, I would hesitate in choosing A. Reason being is that whatever the firearm/weapon knowledge may be behind the doors, what winds up in-game has been at times a bit questionable. Talking adding the TAR but no 5.56, that's blasphemous! :biggrin1: (I would jump for joy if they removed the HP ammo and added in 5.56 instead)
Kidding (a bit) aside.. and having no idea what the vehicle mods might be (hard to imagine a 3x storage pocket mod for the motor/4x4 heh) I'd have to go with C. Big part of that is just having a more concrete idea of what that would be. But I'm the type of guy who would take the $100k even if there were a tiny chance to win the $1 million. Risk adverse so to speak.
Not saying I don't get your point. Even if you're being a bit stingy with the details
maybe Legendarys are 90% done and switching to Sword/Launcher is a suckers bet. TFPs have their roadmap and they're sticking to it. And I'm okay with that.But give me one MOAB and I'd drop it on the Classes.
("ain't I a stinker?" Bugs Bunny :laugh: )