PC Weekend Arguments
- Thread starter Perlin_Worm
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RestInPieces
New member
Maggots, block infection. Blocks with my avatar gif. Best idea ever. Guaranteed
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
I'll make it easy then.
In your OP, Group B built undergound (and avoided hordes), right?.
The group I added (A2) did not.
EDIT: I see where the disconnect between us is now I think. You assume either people build or don't build underground for no particular reason but preference. Some of us want to build underground ONLY IF there are challenges like zombies.
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God can we drop this bull♥♥♥♥ claim that people are upset or want to change the way other people play. Once again, I and pretty much everyone else does not give one iota of concern with how you play. How you want to play has literally nothing to do with the fact that I want obvious exploits like driving on BM night to be addressed. It is a major issue as well.
The problem is that a huge part of the game is building a viable base and having fun defending it. Imagine that, particularly for a new guy, you have spent a lot of time setting up a good base. You spent some time planning it out, have your traps set and your vantage point set up. You are ready. Then, BM rolls around and while murdering the horde something goes wrong. Your plans fail. They break in. Now you have one of those oh ♥♥♥♥! moments frantically running out your back door and desperately trying to survive. Except that you now realize that you can just jog over to your minibike and casually ride away into the sunset. Or just run away as that is viable too atm. No harm, no problems surviving and the ONLY consequence comes in the form of repairing the base that you never had to build in the first place. The sense of achievement is gone. Your base layout and traps are meaningless because you can survive with nothing as you are not overcoming a challenge anymore. I know how this feels because this is exactly what happened to me and it cheapened the entire experience.
What should happen is that after the horde breaks in and I make a run for it there is another challenge waiting that will likely kill me. Getting on my minibike should not give me an easy out, it should present a new challenge. One more harrowing as well as the cost is significantly lower but the challenge should be much more active. This gives an actual sense of achievement in surviving the BM.
As MM pointed out, the reason that surviving right now is not enough is not that the rewards are to small. It is that there is no challenge to the BM because should your structure fail you still get away without a scratch and the DP is lackluster anyway. The BM needs to be a real challenge.
This is also very similar to digging zeds as has been pointed out. I can also say that I am one of those guys that flatly refused to build an underground base in 16 because it was an exploit and ruined the game. In 17, because underground now has all the elements of the game in it, most of my bases were underground. I even got my farm set up at bedrock on my last one (that was an excessive amount of work but it looked cool as hell).
This constant whining about people wanting to change your game play is nothing but a straw man. You are not that important. No one cares how you play.
The problem is that a huge part of the game is building a viable base and having fun defending it. Imagine that, particularly for a new guy, you have spent a lot of time setting up a good base. You spent some time planning it out, have your traps set and your vantage point set up. You are ready. Then, BM rolls around and while murdering the horde something goes wrong. Your plans fail. They break in. Now you have one of those oh ♥♥♥♥! moments frantically running out your back door and desperately trying to survive. Except that you now realize that you can just jog over to your minibike and casually ride away into the sunset. Or just run away as that is viable too atm. No harm, no problems surviving and the ONLY consequence comes in the form of repairing the base that you never had to build in the first place. The sense of achievement is gone. Your base layout and traps are meaningless because you can survive with nothing as you are not overcoming a challenge anymore. I know how this feels because this is exactly what happened to me and it cheapened the entire experience.
What should happen is that after the horde breaks in and I make a run for it there is another challenge waiting that will likely kill me. Getting on my minibike should not give me an easy out, it should present a new challenge. One more harrowing as well as the cost is significantly lower but the challenge should be much more active. This gives an actual sense of achievement in surviving the BM.
As MM pointed out, the reason that surviving right now is not enough is not that the rewards are to small. It is that there is no challenge to the BM because should your structure fail you still get away without a scratch and the DP is lackluster anyway. The BM needs to be a real challenge.
This is also very similar to digging zeds as has been pointed out. I can also say that I am one of those guys that flatly refused to build an underground base in 16 because it was an exploit and ruined the game. In 17, because underground now has all the elements of the game in it, most of my bases were underground. I even got my farm set up at bedrock on my last one (that was an excessive amount of work but it looked cool as hell).
This constant whining about people wanting to change your game play is nothing but a straw man. You are not that important. No one cares how you play.
The xp certainly gives that impression. It is not a shooter though either. Not by a long shot. I think that you are right, adventure is the best way to categorize it.
It is a mutt but almost all games are a mix these days. Computing power has moved to far to limit a game to a single type of game.
I really do hope that the devs add some story to the world though. The world lacks any connection between it and the player without some type of backstory.
Guppycur
Well-known member
Naw the main focus of group B was that they don't care what others do or how they play, but that they want challenge in what they do. You are a group B member. Just because you /chose/ not to build underground, doesn't exclude you.
A more defined line is "Players who want others to play like they do" vs "Players who don't give a crap what others do", if that helps delineate it for you.
If you looked at the members who were in group B during #undergroundbasegate you'd find that the vast majority of them said something along the lines of "although I personally don't do it, I defend their rights", in addition to statements like "digging zombies is dumb, what would be better is..."
Socrastein
New member
I care how other people play.
I care how other people do all kinds of things - workout, read, train their dog, raise their kids, play their games, cook their food, talk to their spouse, etc. etc. etc.
"Do whatever you find fun, who cares?" - I find any 'life philosophy' of this sort to be extremely naive and simplistic, however popular they may be.
First of all, YOU are composed of many competing desires, perspectives, preferences, goals, etc, much like a society or nation is. Sure you can say "country ABC chose candidate XYZ" and be right in a meaningful sense, but you can't forget that about half the country didn't want that.
Same way someone can say "I really like cheesing horde night" and that's what "they want" in a meaningful sense, but you can't forget that parts of them find this unsatisfying, lame, etc.
One SUPER SIMPLE example is the difference between the 'experiential self' and the 'remembering self', basically the "I have fun in the moment" and the "I have fun reflecting on where my past has led me" selves. Their interests are often, but not always, mutually exclusive: what is maximally satisfying to your experiential self might later lead to great dissatisfaction for the remembering self, and likewise what feels very rewarding in remembrance may have been an unpleasant experience.
What I'm saying is, it's a pretty well-established psychological truth that humans aren't great at predicting what will be most "fun" for them, not in the short term and it's even worse over the long term. So you can THINK you're doing "what you like" but simply be wrong! That's why regret, remorse, shame, guilt, etc. exist.
On top of that is the fact that "what we want" is not a singular, permanent drive but the manifestation of many competing drives, feelings, goals, etc. that temporarily ebb and flow in importance. Maybe you're only doing what 55% of your brain processes want, while half of you is feeling suppressed & frustrated. Does 45% of what you want not count somehow? I think it does.
That's the part I care about when it comes to other people doing things I don't think are in their best overall long-term interests.
Oh and this is another can of worms I probably shouldn't dive into lest this comment get ridiculously long & boring, but THERE IS NO HARD LINE BETWEEN LOGIC AND FEELINGS PEOPLE. That's also a very popular belief, but it's also very naive and falls apart upon thorough investigation. "Facts vs feelings" is a false dichotomy. Feelings and intuitions are far more rational and objective than most people are aware, while facts and logic are more deeply rooted in subjectivity and personal preferences than most want to acknowledge.
Basically when someone says "I'm being objective and you're just arguing your feelings" what they really mean is "I am unaware of the personal values underpinning my facts and also unaware of the logic & rationality underpinning your preferences".
And yes I agree with the geologist that before anyone focuses too much on how to address cheesing the horde with a motorcycle we should prioritize other things vehicle-related like, say, motorcycles randomly disappearing (JUST LOST SO MUCH LOOT LAST NIGHT TO THIS!) and jeeps flying into the sky.
I care how other people do all kinds of things - workout, read, train their dog, raise their kids, play their games, cook their food, talk to their spouse, etc. etc. etc.
"Do whatever you find fun, who cares?" - I find any 'life philosophy' of this sort to be extremely naive and simplistic, however popular they may be.
First of all, YOU are composed of many competing desires, perspectives, preferences, goals, etc, much like a society or nation is. Sure you can say "country ABC chose candidate XYZ" and be right in a meaningful sense, but you can't forget that about half the country didn't want that.
Same way someone can say "I really like cheesing horde night" and that's what "they want" in a meaningful sense, but you can't forget that parts of them find this unsatisfying, lame, etc.
One SUPER SIMPLE example is the difference between the 'experiential self' and the 'remembering self', basically the "I have fun in the moment" and the "I have fun reflecting on where my past has led me" selves. Their interests are often, but not always, mutually exclusive: what is maximally satisfying to your experiential self might later lead to great dissatisfaction for the remembering self, and likewise what feels very rewarding in remembrance may have been an unpleasant experience.
What I'm saying is, it's a pretty well-established psychological truth that humans aren't great at predicting what will be most "fun" for them, not in the short term and it's even worse over the long term. So you can THINK you're doing "what you like" but simply be wrong! That's why regret, remorse, shame, guilt, etc. exist.
On top of that is the fact that "what we want" is not a singular, permanent drive but the manifestation of many competing drives, feelings, goals, etc. that temporarily ebb and flow in importance. Maybe you're only doing what 55% of your brain processes want, while half of you is feeling suppressed & frustrated. Does 45% of what you want not count somehow? I think it does.
That's the part I care about when it comes to other people doing things I don't think are in their best overall long-term interests.
Oh and this is another can of worms I probably shouldn't dive into lest this comment get ridiculously long & boring, but THERE IS NO HARD LINE BETWEEN LOGIC AND FEELINGS PEOPLE. That's also a very popular belief, but it's also very naive and falls apart upon thorough investigation. "Facts vs feelings" is a false dichotomy. Feelings and intuitions are far more rational and objective than most people are aware, while facts and logic are more deeply rooted in subjectivity and personal preferences than most want to acknowledge.
Basically when someone says "I'm being objective and you're just arguing your feelings" what they really mean is "I am unaware of the personal values underpinning my facts and also unaware of the logic & rationality underpinning your preferences".
And yes I agree with the geologist that before anyone focuses too much on how to address cheesing the horde with a motorcycle we should prioritize other things vehicle-related like, say, motorcycles randomly disappearing (JUST LOST SO MUCH LOOT LAST NIGHT TO THIS!) and jeeps flying into the sky.
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TSBX
Forum Vigilante
That's one hell of an extrapolation from what I actually posted, but let's start there. If you find enjoyment from running away from a horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, that's good, and I'm glad you can find entertainment in that. The issue is that hopping on a vehicle to do so only costs fuel and vehicle damage HP.
1.) Fuel is currently way too prevalent in A17.4
2.) There is literally no challenge to avoiding the current damage sources to a vehicle, regardless of what day it is.
Nobody is saying that you can't still run from a horde while cackling gleefully from your minibike, what most people are saying is to make it an engaging form of gameplay instead of the clear "get out of jail free card" that it is currently.
If things like maintenance, part quality, mechanic skill, etc were implemented into the vehicle system we have now, it would close a lot of ground to make things more engaging. Until then, having the driving spawn system as previously mentioned a few times sounds like the best way to concede to both parties. Run, you fool, but prepare to use your WASD to avoid zombies on horde night.
Shineblossom
New member
Yes, as i said in my previous posts, i do agree with it being a challenge to bring fun. But i do not agree on making it impossible.
Currently, i am not the type who runs. I like deffending my base. But when it has its own challenge, i would love to try and ride with the BM.
Then, the one you want to butt heads with is MM. Since he is the one contemplating a mechanic that don't allow people the ability to run away. You are falling into the same trap as Grue, and going after suggestions that others are making based on what he contemplated, that can't, affect you in any way. Only TFP can.
At least, be proactive, and suggest what you would like; Instead of being reactive, to people who you think can affect your game play, but can't.
Viktoriusiii
New member
You aren't. Just deactivate blood moon in the settings.
But all that DIDN'T deactivate it, SHOULD be forced to deal with it. Otherwise this option becomes meaningless and we are back at tile one.
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
If u dont give a crap what others do then u would be ok with me playing underground with zombie challenges and using vehicles on horde night with challenges. See its all about me, i dont care what others do. Selfish? Maybe? -- Honest, hell yea. Read ny lips; I dont care how others play, i want challenges for ME.
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PurgatoryWolf
New member
Driving around on BM to avoid zombies, isn't much different than people climbing up towers in a POI to avoid BM. Or attempting to swim all night to avoid it, or what ever else means they will do. some people just dont like BM and will do whatever to not deal with it. youll never be able to FORCE people to deal with it, because they will always come up with a way to avoid it if that's what they want to do.
suicidalhamster
New member
there are no significant rewards (or hazards) to taking on the BM horde. until there is some sort of call to action to face the BM horde, nothing will change
AtomicUs5000
New member
We're discussing the removal of these loopholes as well.
We do not want to remove the possibility of avoiding the horde.
We want the possibility of avoiding the horde to be as rewarding and challenging as survival by defense.
Those who dislike BM that much have been provided with a way to turn it off.
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Drifter
New member
One answer to BM avoidance could be to have the zombies go after any structures or stations that players have recently interacted with. By recently I mean within minutes to get people who logged off or went for a ride to avoid a the fight without wrecking someone who hasn't been online for a while.
Then for a carrot to go with that stick, BM zombies should have some drops among them - good drops that don't vanish until well after the BM.
Then for a carrot to go with that stick, BM zombies should have some drops among them - good drops that don't vanish until well after the BM.