PC Weekend Arguments

[DaVegaNL]

Not always possible. I could be (likely) on a server and others want it. It's no skin off their backs if I'm cruising down the street in my six-four.
...we have tons of legit things the game needs development on, finding a dumb way to nerf using cars on horde nights should be the lowest priority.

This. A thousand times.

Who cares about people using cars during bloodmoon.. seriously. I would worry more about more pressing issues. Like the still-no-bandits issue. Or the abysmal-performance issues. Or the issue where items/mechanics aren't added to the game because said performance. Or the issue that development time for a18 keeps increasing.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Nothing I said explains that at all. I don’t think that and I never said that.

I have no idea what you are going on about. Nothing I wrote means anything close to what you are writing. You are welcome to continue to give your opinion on game design. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else’s.

What’s wrong from a design viewpoint with continuing to allow players to avoid blood moon night by driving around but also adding a challenge or risk to that choice? If the devs don’t prevent the choice but do add a component of driving skill being necessary to successfully pull it off how is that a worse design than the way it has been?

Since we are not designers of this game but are consumers we should give feedback based on our own experience and not some hypothetical group we imagine exists. If everyone gives an accurate account of their own experience and preferences then the designers can use what they gather to temper and refine their own predilections.

I'm sorry... but this sounds a lot to me like "don't give generally true statements, but only personal experiences"

And I have been on here for long enough that you should know I am the biggest opponent of those loopholes, since they deactive the biggest part/driving factor of the game.

There shouldn't be a cost efficient way to avoid the hordes. If there is a recipe that you can find that costs loads and you need to find one each hordenight, sure. But not "oh i have this vehicle and now I'm forever safe from the Z's." Or "I dug down 20 blocks so now I don't have to worry about Z's".

 

[hotpoon]

This. A thousand times.Who cares about people using cars during bloodmoon.. seriously. I would worry more about more pressing issues. Like the still-no-bandits issue. Or the abysmal-performance issues. Or the issue where items/mechanics aren't added to the game because said performance. Or the issue that development time for a18 keeps increasing.

Agreed. Personally I think this BM/vehicle discussion is only happening because the real issues have been marked as 'end of discussion', so now people are nitpicking to keep the conversation going.

 

[RestInPieces]

I'm sorry... but this sounds a lot to me like "don't give generally true statements, but only personal experiences"
And I have been on here for long enough that you should know I am the biggest opponent of those loopholes, since they deactive the biggest part/driving factor of the game.

There shouldn't be a cost efficient way to avoid the hordes. If there is a recipe that you can find that costs loads and you need to find one each hordenight, sure. But not "oh i have this vehicle and now I'm forever safe from the Z's." Or "I dug down 20 blocks so now I don't have to worry about Z's".

Mate, as you can see around you, not everyone is willing to properly back up a generally true statement or base it on logic. It's easier to accuse others, make it seem you belong to the majority and repeating the same things over and over, not replying to counter-arguments.

For example the "people care how I play" that is trending around here, is a generally true statement in the eyes of some people. Of course if that were the case, people would also be complaining about their ability to choose among the variety of different options we have available. None is, for some strange reason. But when someone really wants to convince himself of something, all logic coherence is lost to that person. Extensive reasons have been mentioned a thousand times and people still keep parroting the same things like in the post above yours. Just take a look at the "A solution to the "Run away from hordes" problem." thread in the general section.

So the more honest approach is to start talking only about the pros and cons of the matter at hand. Anyway MM commented on loopholes and they are obviously trying to get rid of as many as possible, because they can obviously understand that it's not loopholes that create "playstyle freedom", but more like solid gameplay choices, which can't co-exist with loopholes.

Agreed. Personally I think this BM/vehicle discussion is only happening because the real issues have been marked as 'end of discussion', so now people are nitpicking to keep the conversation going.

Or maybe because practical reasons to use all of the game's TD elements, fortifications and defenses are kind of important, since, you know, TD is one of the game's tags and it is a huge part of the content. It's no less important the underground debate which had been going on for years, which was a different loophole, but for the very same thing.

 

[Gazz]

Lead is heavy, but soft. You'd be repairing it constantly. Tungsten is MORE dense, but so hard it is used in drill bits and saw blades to cut through hardened steel.

Yes. That's why diamond and gold pickaxes are so hilarious in games.

 

[Shineblossom]

1) First of all fun and satisfaction are... feelings that are mostly subjective to each person, they are not practical reasons

I think this alone is good enough answer for cryers... "Why should i deffend my base when you can just run away?"

Just choose whichever option is fun for you, for gods sake. That is my whole point.

--------update-----------

On other note... Are we going to be able to plant snowberries? I am sorry if this was discussed before, but yesterday, when i could find no freaking snowberries, i realized that when it runs out, it is out. RIP my yucca smoothie.

 

[RestInPieces]

I think this alone is good enough answer for cryers... "Why should i deffend my base when you can just run away?"
Just choose whichever option is fun for you, for gods sake. That is my whole point.

It seems that, with all due respect, you haven't understood why this is an issue for us. I'll try to convey it in "fun" terms.

a) Survival's core concept is "having to survive". Defense's core concept is "having to defend something". If there is nothing to defend, calling it "defense" is meaningless.

b) Survival and defense are fun for "cryers". Just shooting zombies because we feel like, isn't.

c) Trying-to-not-survive (aka put yourself in danger without having to) is not fun because it is not survival, and not having anything to defend is not fun because it is not essentially defense.

d) None of the options given to us are "fun" for us, because there is no actual practical reason to defend or fortify a base.

Simple enough, no?

 

[Beelzybub]

On other note... Are we going to be able to plant snowberries? I am sorry if this was discussed before, but yesterday, when i could find no freaking snowberries, i realized that when it runs out, it is out. RIP my yucca smoothie.

You can buy snowberry extract from a trader.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]

I know. And I have tried so many times just to ignore them. To just walk away.

But this forum/TFPs and a lot of its users are like children. They spout and scream that they really want to put their hand on the hot oven metal. And you explain to them that this will hurt them. That this has lasting consequences, that this affects their health and that they won't be able to play basketball for a long time so their fun is reduced... and you keep going and going.

And all the kid shouts is "BUT I WANNA!"

I really want to walk away and let it... but its irresponsible. Especially since I want this kid to be the best it can be when its grown up. And a permanent burn wound will impair it.

And yes this was a metaphor. (yes everyone SHOULD have seen this... but I bet 90% still can't tell what it was a metaphor for)

But that is life. I mean at least they try and fix it, even though ppl scream that they want the freedom.

But there are sooo many other issues where I just bang my head against the closest wall from all the ignorance and the "feelings over facts" mentality.

*takes a deep breath*

I'm ok.

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Or the issue where items/mechanics aren't added to the game because said performance.

Yes, absolutely this one!

 

[ParadiseLostUK]

I know. And I have tried so many times just to ignore them. To just walk away.But this forum/TFPs and a lot of its users are like children. They spout and scream that they really want to put their hand on the hot oven metal. And you explain to them that this will hurt them. That this has lasting consequences, that this affects their health and that they won't be able to play basketball for a long time so their fun is reduced... and you keep going and going.

And all the kid shouts is "BUT I WANNA!"

I really want to walk away and let it... but its irresponsible. Especially since I want this kid to be the best it can be when its grown up. And a permanent burn wound will impair it.

And yes this was a metaphor. (yes everyone SHOULD have seen this... but I bet 90% still can't tell what it was a metaphor for)

But that is life. I mean at least they try and fix it, even though ppl scream that they want the freedom.

But there are sooo many other issues where I just bang my head against the closest wall from all the ignorance and the "feelings over facts" mentality.

*takes a deep breath*

I'm ok.

Please could you explain why you are so much wiser and knowledgeable than the rest of us?

 

[DaVegaNL]

Agreed. Personally I think this BM/vehicle discussion is only happening because the real issues have been marked as 'end of discussion', so now people are nitpicking to keep the conversation going.

Yeah I think so too. If there aren't any other issues going on it might be adressed.. but there are much, much more pressing issues..

 

[DaVegaNL]

Yes, absolutely this one!

Yeah I'm actually pretty disheartened to hear that there won't be a NPC/colony system in the game, because of the performance of the game..

 

[RestInPieces]

Please could you explain why you are so much wiser and knowledgeable than the rest of us?

I'll tell you one reason. Because MM, who is an actual game designer and knows better than any of us, also wants to close off these loopholes, because he recognizes that loopholes != solid and balanced gameplay choices.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Please could you explain why you are so much wiser and knowledgeable than the rest of us?

Not "the rest of you".

Just those that argument that they enjoyed it so it isn't bad.

And why? Because I don't use feelings as an argument. I might say that I personally disliked it, but that is not the reason for why it is bad.

I can like Birdemic, but still acknowledge its fundemental failure as a movie.

I can dislike Avengers: Endgame and still praise its cinematography.

So when I say "This feature is a bad gamedesign"

And you/others say "but I liked it"

Then I am the parent who needs to explain that, just because oyu liked it, doesn't mean that it is good.

It is nice that you DID enjoy it. And I do not want to take that away from you. That is why opinions and feelings are subjective.

If I eat meat raw, I can like the taste and feel nice after. But the fact of the matter is that raw meat is bad for humans. It is hard to digest, it can not be processed well and since its not cooked a lot of bacteria are in it.

That does not mean I am not allowed to like it.

But the fact of the matter is, it is not good and should generally be cooked.

Same with games.

You can like "Atlas". But that does not mean it is a good game.

You can like that the game lets you cheese hordenight, that doesn't make it good gamedesign.

You can like the new perks, that doesn't mean it streamlined progress and lowered the replayability.

THIS is why I am "better" as you say.

Or as I like to say: Why my facts trump your emotions.

If you start using facts, I am no better than you. You might actually have better arguments, since I played A17 so little.

But until then, I am "better". (and those quotationmarks are important, because I do not feel I am better than anyone, I just have the better arguments)

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I'll tell you one reason. Because MM, who is an actual game designer and knows better than any of us, also wants to close off these loopholes, because he recognizes that loopholes != solid and balanced gameplay choices.

Weelll... I'm pretty sure you intentionally oversold him... to make fun of some people who think TFPs know best just because they are the creators/owners... I just need to confirm that this was indeed your intention

 

[ParadiseLostUK]

Not "the rest of you".Just those that argument that they enjoyed it so it isn't bad.

And why? Because I don't use feelings as an argument. I might say that I personally disliked it, but that is not the reason for why it is bad.

I can like Birdemic, but still acknowledge its fundemental failure as a movie.

I can dislike Avengers: Endgame and still praise its cinematography.

So when I say "This feature is a bad gamedesign"

And you/others say "but I liked it"

Then I am the parent who needs to explain that, just because oyu liked it, doesn't mean that it is good.

It is nice that you DID enjoy it. And I do not want to take that away from you. That is why opinions and feelings are subjective.

If I eat meat raw, I can like the taste and feel nice after. But the fact of the matter is that raw meat is bad for humans. It is hard to digest, it can not be processed well and since its not cooked a lot of bacteria are in it.

That does not mean I am not allowed to like it.

But the fact of the matter is, it is not good and should generally be cooked.

Same with games.

You can like "Atlas". But that does not mean it is a good game.

You can like that the game lets you cheese hordenight, that doesn't make it good gamedesign.

You can like the new perks, that doesn't mean it streamlined progress and lowered the replayability.

THIS is why I am "better" as you say.

Or as I like to say: Why my facts trump your emotions.

If you start using facts, I am no better than you. You might actually have better arguments, since I played A17 so little.

But until then, I am "better". (and those quotationmarks are important, because I do not feel I am better than anyone, I just have the better arguments)

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Weelll... I'm pretty sure you intentionally oversold him... to make fun of some people who think TFPs know best just because they are the creators/owners... I just need to confirm that this was indeed your intention

I haven't actually stated my preferences at all. My objection was to your condescending tone, not your argument.

 

[RestInPieces]

Weelll... I'm pretty sure you intentionally oversold him... to make fun of some people who think TFPs know best just because they are the creators/owners... I just need to confirm that this was indeed your intention

I have no idea what you are talking about, sir

I just used a sensationally irrefutable argument!

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I haven't actually stated my preferences at all. My objection was to your condescending tone, not your argument.

If you do not use arguments from emotion like >80% of this forum, then I am sorry if you felt like I was talking to you.

Is it condescending to tell someone they are wrong?

Is it condescending to tell an infant not to touch the electric outlet?

Is it condescending...

You get my point. My tone has become this way from years of frustration in this forum.

If you argue with your toddler over the same point for hours, where he misrepresents you every time you try to explain something and constantly makes the same mistakes while calling you names... wouldn't you be annoyed? Now think months and months

I have been misrepresented more often on this forum than *censored by myself to not start a political discussion*... a lot.

I say A people tell me that J is stupid.

I tell them that I said A and J only sounds similar, they continue to argue over J and how stupid I am for claiming it.

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I have no idea what you are talking about, sir I just used a sensationally irrefutable argument!

Well that is obviously true. Sorry for beeing so condescending and implying you would ever do such an abhorrent thing.

 

[ecv]

You heard about the planned feature that you could wait out the BM inside the trader compound, for a fee?

I'd still log out. Makes no difference to me if I stay at the traders, stay afk in a bm bunker or log out. At least logging out I won't take up server resources, which can be a big deal on 8+ servers. In all "choices" I'd have to sit on ass, wasting time, not playing.

On our server for example more than half of the players log out during bm in late game. I can only assume why.

A few enjoy bm so much that they do them all and even get upset when missing one.

A few use em to level up.

To me personally, they stop being fun when the radiated start appearing and it's all about having enough ammo, which I always have. Takes a day in sp and even less time on mp to get bm ready.

[humor]It could just as well take 1000 rounds from every inventory, level you up four times and make it 4am. If you don't have 1000 rounds when a bm starts the game will kill you and take your perks. Then make it 4am.[/Humor]

I don't think I've died during bm due to difficulty. It's always from bugs or large HP pools without effective weapons against them. Yeah, I consider five radiated cops at the same time a bug in sp and on mp it really doesn't matter. No horde has the slightest chance against a group of players.

make headshots on radiated kill everytime and reduce their numbers, I might be coaxed back. Beating something with good aim is more fun for me than relying on big numbers. The relying on big numbers just activates a calculation in my brain saying "yepp, got enough ammo, would win. Now skip it and continue" in the end I'd rather get on with my building and wish the guys doing bm good luck.

 

[Guppycur]

This is the whole underground base argument again...

Group A doesn't build UG bases, but hates that group B does it, so cries "Loophole! Must close the loophole!".

Group B is shocked because they know their play style doesn't affect group A and says "Let us play how we want!"

Group C, the silent majority, says "How about making underground living challenging in other ways?"

...this appeals to group B immediately and it eventually appeals to group A after they actually think about it a second.

The pimps read "Loophole" and knee jerk the easiest method to close it for a problem that never really existed in the first place using man hours and pushing back release time to do so.

Underground bases, xp from making stone axes, spikes, the list goes on...

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Tldr; blood moon emp's that kill cars is dumb, zombie guts giving cars drivability issues is great.

Oh and Roland, if that "spikes require effort to get the resources for" argument works for keeping the spike loophole in, how come underground bases, which required WAY more effort, couldn't use that argument?

(Also pretty sure getting a vehicle takes time and effort)