PC Weekend Arguments

[Shineblossom]

It seems that, with all due respect, you haven't understood why this is an issue for us. I'll try to convey it in "fun" terms.
a) Survival's core concept is "having to survive". Defense's core concept is "having to defend something". If there is nothing to defend, calling it "defense" is meaningless.

b) Survival and defense are fun for "cryers". Just shooting zombies because we feel like, isn't.

c) Trying-to-not-survive (aka put yourself in danger without having to) is not fun because it is not survival, and not having anything to defend is not fun because it is not essentially defense.

d) None of the options given to us are "fun" for us, because there is no actual practical reason to defend or fortify a base.

Simple enough, no?

Yes. You are right. I do not understand what is the issue for you. I am one of the people who defend their base instead of running. Why? Because i find it more fun. I love building. And defending it means i can see how well my base stands against the Horde, even though the defending as itself does not appeal to me.

That doesn't mean that i have problem with people suviving any other way. They want to drive around? Be my guest. They want to hide in underground bunker? Be my guest.

So yes, i would love to see those "exploits" to be made challenging. Not to make it harder for others. But to make it viable strategy that can be fun.

And no, even after what you said, i still have no idea why are you guys acting like spoiled brats, crying out loud that those ugly bad people run from Horde when you fight which is oh no so much harder.

So, you can either keep defending because you like doing it. If you do not like doing it then change your strategy. Run or whatever. But wanting EXTRA because you play differently? Or wanting others to prevent from having their fun with their strategy? No, that is just plain whining.

You have to find your own reason and fun in dealing with the Horde if you do not want to turn it off.

The pimps read "Loophole" and knee jerk the easiest method to close it for a problem that never really existed in the first place using man hours and pushing back release time to do so.
Underground bases, xp from making stone axes, spikes, the list goes on...

- - - Updated - - -

Tldr; blood moon emp's that kill cars is dumb, zombie guts giving cars drivability issues is great.

This. Thank you.

You can buy snowberry extract from a trader.

Wish i could buy more

 

[meganoth]

I'd still log out. Makes no difference to me if I stay at the traders, stay afk in a bm bunker or log out. At least logging out I won't take up server resources, which can be a big deal on 8+ servers. In all "choices" I'd have to sit on ass, wasting time, not playing.

But pressing your finger on the "W" button is a meaningful acitivity for you and not wasting time, and doesn't count as practically afk?

in the end I'd rather get on with my building and wish the guys doing bm good luck.

Ok, and how does driving around on BM help you with that?

 

[RestInPieces]

Yes. You are right. I do not understand what is the issue for you.

And no, even after what you said, i still have no idea why are you guys acting like spoiled brats, crying out loud that those ugly bad people run from Horde when you fight which is oh no so much harder.

You don't understand the issue, so you just resort to calling us spoiled brats and whiners. Classy.

I am one of the people who defend their base instead of running. Why? Because i find it more fun. I love building. And defending it means i can see how well my base stands against the Horde, even though the defending as itself does not appeal to me.

So, you can either keep defending because you like doing it. If you do not like doing it then change your strategy. Run or whatever. But wanting EXTRA because you play differently? Or wanting others to prevent from having their fun with their strategy? No, that is just plain whining.
You have to find your own reason and fun in dealing with the Horde if you do not want to turn it off.

And it's really great if you find it fun. But I explained to you in as much detail as it is humanly possible, that what you may find "fun", may not be fun for others. I explained to you how we have "fun" in that situation and how the current situation does not allow us for fun options. Pointing you again to "point b)" of my post. Are you able to understand that different people find different things fun? If yes, it's a start.

That doesn't mean that i have problem with people suviving any other way. They want to drive around? Be my guest. They want to hide in underground bunker? Be my guest.

Go ahead and show me where in the post you quoted do I mention or imply anything about what other people are doing. Why do you always want/like it to be about other people? Do you feel victimized that someone else expressed preferences different than yours or something? Why would I care about what you or anyone else is doing? Do you really feel that important?

So yes, i would love to see those "exploits" to be made challenging. Not to make it harder for others. But to make it viable strategy that can be fun.

You would "like to see those exploits to be made challenging but not harder for others"? Can you explain that more extensively? And when did I say that more than one strategies shouldn't be viable? Can you point that out?

 

[RestInPieces]

Group A...

Group B...

Group C...

Don't forget about group D.

 

[meganoth]

This is the whole underground base argument again...
Group A doesn't build UG bases, but hates that group B does it, so cries "Loophole! Must close the loophole!".

Group B is shocked because they know their play style doesn't affect group A and says "Let us play how we want!"

Group C, the silent majority, says "How about making underground living challenging in other ways?"

So if at that time someone was proposing digging zombies he was in group A hating group B, but if he was proposing poisonous gas underground he was in group C and also silent ? OKAAAAY :cocksure:

PS: Two pictures of the underground craft base I built in A17.4 (the first underground base I built in A17 was a BM base), I like the challenge of digging zombies. A17 is the first time I'm interested in building underground. So I can prove that for me it isn't about hating group B:

So yes, i would love to see those "exploits" to be made challenging. Not to make it harder for others. But to make it viable strategy that can be fun.

...

[to the idea of making driving more challenging]

This. Thank you.

So we are agreed, these exploits should be made more challenging (I don't get whats the difference to "harder", but nvm, english isn't my mother language). RestinPieces, Atomic, myself, not one of us has ever said one word against the idea Guppycur talks about, some of us even proposed similar ideas in the thread about this. So where is the disagreement here?

 

[Catt]

I'd still log out. Makes no difference to me if I stay at the traders, stay afk in a bm bunker or log out. At least logging out I won't take up server resources, which can be a big deal on 8+ servers. In all "choices" I'd have to sit on ass, wasting time, not playing.
On our server for example more than half of the players log out during bm in late game. I can only assume why.

A few enjoy bm so much that they do them all and even get upset when missing one.

A few use em to level up.

To me personally, they stop being fun when the radiated start appearing and it's all about having enough ammo, which I always have. Takes a day in sp and even less time on mp to get bm ready.

[humor]It could just as well take 1000 rounds from every inventory, level you up four times and make it 4am. If you don't have 1000 rounds when a bm starts the game will kill you and take your perks. Then make it 4am.[/Humor]

I don't think I've died during bm due to difficulty. It's always from bugs or large HP pools without effective weapons against them. Yeah, I consider five radiated cops at the same time a bug in sp and on mp it really doesn't matter. No horde has the slightest chance against a group of players.

make headshots on radiated kill everytime and reduce their numbers, I might be coaxed back. Beating something with good aim is more fun for me than relying on big numbers. The relying on big numbers just activates a calculation in my brain saying "yepp, got enough ammo, would win. Now skip it and continue" in the end I'd rather get on with my building and wish the guys doing bm good luck.

Make it so, after you've killed x zombies during a bm night, one of the new spawns is scripted with a 100% chance to drop a special loot bag. This bag lasts longer than normal loot bags (so it won't expire before you have a chance to grab it waiting for 4 am). This bag has a lot of ammo, maybe some raw diamonds etc, and a chance at a legendary item (future) or just some top tier loot for your level/gamestage.

Makes bm reward you and slightly stave off the massive resource consumption that is a bm hoard.

 

[Roland]

.Oh and Roland, if that "spikes require effort to get the resources for" argument works for keeping the spike loophole in, how come underground bases, which required WAY more effort, couldn't use that argument?

(Also pretty sure getting a vehicle takes time and effort)

I was trying to be accommodating... I argue for what I want until the decision has been made but then adapt to the new normal. Like I said, throwing spikes to the ground feels like a magic spell so it isn’t the ideal I would have chosen. But the decision has been made and it went against my desire. <shrug>

Those opposed to digging zombies DID use that argument but the decision went against them so they need to adapt. The decision hasn’t been made yet on BM night driving and if TFP decides that the effort of getting a car is the cost of easily avoiding the horde then I’ll adapt...or in this case just stay the same.

But until that happens I’ll argue for a more interesting and challenging and fun choice than we currently have because that’s what I’d like to see go down and I believe it is a better design. If someone else wants to argue that the cost and effort of getting the car makes it a viable option to be able to easily avoid the horde they should make that argument. It’s a good point and way better for the conversation than this “Why do you care how others play” nonsense. And it is nonsense that has no bearing on those who will make the decision. So if they really are against any change to BM night driving they better come up with a compelling argument that actually has substance if they don’t want to be the ones who will have to adapt.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Sigh. Here folks. Bloodmoon Avoidance 101:

You have a keyboard. Use it.

F1

dm

F1

q

hold space until at 300m.

Now, go have coffee or whatever, wait until 4am gametime.

fly down.

q

F1

dm

F1

there. Horde avoided.

(you could try just speeding up the time to 4am the next day, but that gets wonky after a bit)

So all this about using vehicles etc. meh.

Oh, if gas barrels are now lootable containers, does that mean they won't blow up?

I'll be sad if that's the case. How am I gonna do my fireworks displays then?

(2k barrels laid out in various ways/patterns. explody bolts to trigger)

 

[Aldranon]

That series is exactly how I would hope to see things as well. Since we all know having the slow and dumb, massive hordes isn't going to work for this game, zombies like these would.I never referenced Black Summer because it seems like it just isn't that popular... yet.

Some intense moments in that show. You know there are thousands of zombies around, but when they show how just one can be a struggle to deal with is genius to me.

And two zombies... two is a threat you would never melee alone unless you were some serious badass.

 

[ParadiseLostUK]

Sigh. Here folks. Bloodmoon Avoidance 101:
You have a keyboard. Use it.

F1

dm

F1

q

hold space until at 300m.

Now, go have coffee or whatever, wait until 4am gametime.

fly down.

q

F1

dm

F1

there. Horde avoided.

(you could try just speeding up the time to 4am the next day, but that gets wonky after a bit)

So all this about using vehicles etc. meh.

Oh, if gas barrels are now lootable containers, does that mean they won't blow up?

I'll be sad if that's the case. How am I gonna do my fireworks displays then?

(2k barrels laid out in various ways/patterns. explody bolts to trigger)

[sATIRE* But how am I supposed to do that on a 128 player PvP server, man you are messing with my playstyle. Don't tell me how to play!!!! *END SATIRE]

In all seriousness, my opinion is that if TFP want to add challenge to all playstyles then that can only be a good thing for the game. I'm not a hardcore player by any means but isn't that what the difficulty sliders are for, I mean the easiest settings are very forgiving even by my less than elite standards.

 

[TSBX]

If you don't want to fight the horde, then turn it off in game settings. If you play on a server with that setting on.... you made that choice. Log off or play the game.

Just like with underground bases it's not about discrimination against your play style, it's about balancing the game in general. Things that have no challenge make the game boring and just like underground bases, if the devs say it shouldn't be, stop using other users as strawmen when asking who says they can't play the way they want. For people who make the game, that's who.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

While I still think the code for diggers is borked, (same for jumping), I do agree that just digging down a few blocks was cheesy.

Digging to bedrock takes work. So a limit to how far underground they can sense would make...sense.

Again though, the entire game is still a WiP, so...

Now on vehicles, for the 4x4 at least, I'd put a damned ROOF on it. Close up the sides, put doors on.

Vultures become roadkill.

(and in evil moments, a turret for the passenger to shoot things. MG or Shotgun. pick a turret. )

(mind you, an automatic CLUB would be fun. Batter up on the vultures) heh.

 

[Hamburglar]

I wonder when the release date will be :miserable:

 

[Shineblossom]

You don't understand the issue, so you just resort to calling us spoiled brats and whiners. Classy.

That is exactly how half of this forums is acting about other people not playing like them. Or do you think that if i did not say that aloud, it would not be true?

And it's really great if you find it fun. But I explained to you in as much detail as it is humanly possible, that what you may find "fun", may not be fun for others. I explained to you how we have "fun" in that situation and how the current situation does not allow us for fun options. Pointing you again to "point b)" of my post. Are you able to understand that different people find different things fun? If yes, it's a start.

As i already said. If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

Also, if you find fun ruining fun for others (forbid them from running wwaaaaaa) then this discussion is also completely pointless. If you only ward reward for doing something that is completely normal in this game, especially after MM clearly said that surviving itself is a reward (so there won't be any reward), there is no point in this discussion.

Go ahead and show me where in the post you quoted do I mention or imply anything about what other people are doing. Why do you always want/like it to be about other people? Do you feel victimized that someone else expressed preferences different than yours or something? Why would I care about what you or anyone else is doing? Do you really feel that important?

My first post was reffering to mass of people doing this. You started discussion with me, adding to their side.

And when did I say that more than one strategies shouldn't be viable? Can you point that out?

See above.

You would "like to see those exploits to be made challenging but not harder for others"? Can you explain that more extensively?

I voiced that poorly, my fault.

I would love to see some work on other methods of fending off horde, like running away with a car. To make it feel real, to make it feel rewarding. It give it some actual gameplay.

I would hate tho to make the game harder by forcing people into using strategies they are not comfortable with.

- - - Updated - - -

If you don't want to fight the horde, then turn it off in game settings. If you play on a server with that setting on.... you made that choice. Log off or play the game.

If you find it funny to run away from horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, go kill yourself because you have no right to have fun.

Did i get it right?

 

[SnowDog1942]

This is the whole underground base argument again...
Group A doesn't build UG bases, but hates that group B does it, so cries "Loophole! Must close the loophole!".

Group B is shocked because they know their play style doesn't affect group A and says "Let us play how we want!"

Group C, the silent majority, says "How about making underground living challenging in other ways?"

Group A2. Like group A this group didnt build UG bases. Unlike group A, A2 didnt build them because it was boring. Unlike Group A, A2 doesnt care how anyone else plays. They wanted digging zombies for THEIR OWN enjoyment so they can build UG bases and not be bored. Group B apparently has ZERO comprehension of A2 and pretend they dont exist, made apparent by your omission

 

[Phoenixshade35]

I've always been the type to stay above ground, but to have a bunker to retreat to when things got dicey, i admit, i never get my bunkers complete and end up just fighting the horde head on, i wouldnt mind some challenges to living underground myself to motivate me to build underground more, like needing to build vents to the surface for air, actually powering ac units to give fresh air (already in game so why not) but thats me, i want more reasons for underground to be a challenge for me to build there, what will make it more interesting is when they add npc characters you can save and have help around your base doing various tasks, if it gets added, that will be a game changer for the better I think.

 

[Guppycur]

Group A2. Like group A this group didnt build UG bases. This group however didnt build them because it was cheesy and boring. A2 also oesnt care how anyone else plays. They wanted digging zombies for THEIR OWN enjoyment so they can build UG bases and not be bored. Group B apparently has ZERO comprehension of A2 and pretend they dont exist, made apparent by your omission

Group a2 sounds an awful lot like group b...

 

[SnowDog1942]

That proves my line about comprehension

 

[Viktoriusiii]

As i already said. If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

Also, if you find fun ruining fun for others (forbid them from running wwaaaaaa) then this discussion is also completely pointless. If you only ward reward for doing something that is completely normal in this game, especially after MM clearly said that surviving itself is a reward (so there won't be any reward), there is no point in this discussion.

How can a person be so dense and/or me focused... I'm sorry.

"Well I like it this way so YOU find another way to have fun!"

This is not how to argue. He tried to explain to you why subjectively you are wrong.

But we have stated hundrets of times why OBJECTIVELY beeing able to avoid the horde with minimal effort is bad.

Stop saying that you like it. Try giving us an argument that explains how beeing able to avoid the horde makes sense.

Is the game called "7 days to run away"?

Is it a creative sandbox or a survival game?

Is there an option in the menu to disable the hordes?

Are there different settings and commands to make you ABLE to avoid the hordes? (the answer is yes)

There is NO such setting for defending hordenights.

There is no "no driving while hordenight" no "no exploitive ai" setting.

What all of this boils down to:

At the start of the game, you set parimeters, in which you want to operate. Within these settings, you want to be able to overcome the challenge and feel like you did something hard. THIS is the reward.

If there was a button in Dark Souls that made you oneshot enemies WITHOUT needing any timing or preparation... would the game still be fun? Would it be rewarding to finish off bosses?

A boss is too hard... just press the button. You just lost your lifeenergy and need it back... just press the button.

No? Well just don't use that button then. Well there is no reward for not doing it except bragging rights... but wouldn't the game be objectively better without it? Without having to restrain yourself?

Same is happening here. It is not a challenge to survive, if there are obvious and easy exploits.

And what is worst: You completely lack the incentive to build a base. Which means you lack incentive to farm ressources, which means you lack exploration... which means...

And just with that little exploit, 90% of the game became absolutely unnecessary.

Could have just started a creative world and would have had the same fun.

also @Guppy: I think group A&C are pretty much the same. One is just annoyed more and wants change now instead of some complicated "underground poison" system, that takes 4 alphas to implement.

I take it. If they can implement it next alpha, I will LOVE those extra challenges in exchange for digging, gps zombies. But since a new mechanic is hard to implement, we beg for them to simply go the easy way and make zombies reach you anywhere.

giving us challenges based on location (vultures in treehouses, maggotzombies/poison air under ground, block random collapse on stiltbases and so on): 10/10

giving us challenges by removing exploits, meaning that zombies can "see" structural support and under ground:

6/10

doing nothing and keeping in the stupid exploits which ruin 90% of the game by proxy:

1/10

 

[RestInPieces]

That is exactly how half of this forums is acting about other people not playing like them. Or do you think that if i did not say that aloud, it would not be true?

You know what they say... if you believe something hard enough, it becomes true... for you. I certainly don't see even 1/100 of the forum caring for how others play. This is evident from threads in the general section that frequently ask about cheats, commands, mods etc. None pops up to tell them not to do this or that. I think you are making a leap of logic, when someone wants something for himself that will influence your playstyle and think it's all about you.

As i already said. If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

What does that even mean? "Find something that will make it fun for you". I know what it is and I am asking for it right now. The game is in alpha. This is a feedback forum. Perhaps what you mean is, "find something that will make it fun for you, which I won't disagree with". Which won't happen unless it's a coincidence.

Also, if you find fun ruining fun for others (forbid them from running wwaaaaaa) then this discussion is also completely pointless.

Again, what gave you that idea? I asked you to point that out in my previous post, but you didn't (because I never implied such a thing). And you keep making assumptions about me nevertheless Maybe I am being too polite with you, considering the baseless rudeness I am receiving.

If you only ward reward for doing something that is completely normal in this game, especially after MM clearly said that surviving itself is a reward (so there won't be any reward), there is no point in this discussion.

Surviving itself should be the reward indeed. Thing is that surviving doesn't mean much if the opposite (death) bears no weight. So as MM also said, survival may be seen as more of a reward if there was a harsher DP.

My first post was reffering to mass of people doing this. You started discussion with me, adding to their side.See above.

You quoted my post replying to me directly in your second post, after I replied to you, saying the quote bellow:

why are you guys acting like spoiled brats, crying out loud that those ugly bad people run from Horde when you fight which is oh no so much harder

So, weren't you referring to me as well in that post? What "mass of people" are you referring to?

I voiced that poorly, my fault.I would love to see some work on other methods of fending off horde, like running away with a car. To make it feel real, to make it feel rewarding. It give it some actual gameplay.

I would hate tho to make the game harder by forcing people into using strategies they are not comfortable with.

That's what I want as well. Actual gameplay - a balanced choice that will make the player think of what to choose. Practical reasons that will make the choice of fighting the horde meaningful.

If you don't want to fight the horde, then turn it off in game settings. If you play on a server with that setting on.... you made that choice. Log off or play the game.

If you find it funny to run away from horde of pissed off undead that want to eat your brain, go kill yourself because you have no right to have fun.Did i get it right?

And this is what you said to me just above:

If it is not fun for you, then find other BM means that are fun for you. If none of them are, turn off BM. And if not even that is fun for you, then you do not consider this game fun and this discussion was pointless since the very beginning.

Impressive amount of self-reflection, when I was asking for features that will make BM fun for me.