PC V3.0 Dead Hot Summer Dev Diary

[bdubyah]

What if TFP just made the game roll a dice and have some of your base stuff disappear just because you weren't there?
Is that your version of "fun"?

When did I say that? I said them having some of your stuff when you get back to base and you need to stop them to keep it. I think that would be fun. Again, I don't really expect mechanics like this, but hey, you never know.

I think it would be a very dumb idea to let the game punish the player for "not being there" just because... bandits, don't you agree?
As long as games have existed in history the point has always been to put yourself to the test, yes, but in a fair way.

Again, I never said you would come back and stuff would just have disappeared into the ether. You'd get the chance to reclaim your stuff.

 

[Old Crow]

I'm gonna touch ur storage.

 

[Riamus]

A lot of players, when they think about bandits, don't think about NPCs that can steal your stuff.

They think about (e.g.) Skyrim bandits or Rimworld bandits.
You either kill them, or they kill you... there are no "stealthy thieves" that come to your base while you're sleeping and steal your stuff.

If they come to you, you're almost certainly dead well BEFORE they hypothetically take some of your stuff.
In that regard is not much different than dying killed by zombies: if you die, you lose part of your stuff.

I don't see what's all the fuss about honestly.

I don't think most people arguing against raids are talking about raids while you are at your base. That's fine. What at least some people, and I have a feeling "most" people, don't like is the idea of them raiding your base when you're not there and you getting back to find stuff gone or your base destroyed. Having to defend your base is fine as long as you're there. If you read what I wrote earlier, I commented on that as well.

When did I say that? I said them having some of your stuff when you get back to base and you need to stop them to keep it. I think that would be fun. Again, I don't really expect mechanics like this, but hey, you never know.

Again, I never said you would come back and stuff would just have disappeared into the ether. You'd get the chance to reclaim your stuff.

I'd be fine with something like that. If you come back and the bandits are there and you have to kill them in order to not lose stuff... I am fine with that. So long as they don't scatter and quickly disappear in different directions, preventing you from being able to kill them all to get all your stuff back, of course.

So..

• If bandits raid your base while you are there, that's okay with me.
• If bandits raid your base while you are gone, but they are still there whenever you return and you have a chance to defeat them to keep your stuff, that's okay with me. Though the range you are to your base needs to be VERY close to trigger this. I don't want to drive past my base and not have any idea this "minigame" is happening and lose stuff because I'm not either constantly stopping at my base whenever I'm anywhere close or else having to detour far around it to avoid that.
• If bandits raid your base while you are gone and they are gone already when you return and there's no way to recover whatever they stole, or if they do damage to your base, that's NOT okay with me.
• If this is controlled by sandbox options and I can disable it or enable it, then I don't care what they do because I can disable it if I don't like it.

 

[bdubyah]

I'd be fine with something like that. If you come back and the bandits are there and you have to kill them in order to not lose stuff... I am fine with that. So long as they don't scatter and quickly disappear in different directions, preventing you from being able to kill them all to get all your stuff back, of course.

I agree. Have a little raiding party that has a "boss" bandit with them that has your stuff. The rest of them would try and stay between the boss and you. Something like that.

 

[grz__]

Personally, I'm not interested in bandits, whether they have raid mechanics or not; I play for the zombies, and I hope they can be completely disabled.

 

[Dead Smarty]

I'm gonna touch ur storage.

Love it when you talk dirty...

 

[Mr. Perfect]

A bandit that can't take anything from you by turning it off isn't really a bandit, it's a zombie with a gun skin.
The entire reason "bandit" implies something scarier than "zombie" is that bandits are supposed to be motivated — they want your loot, they'll go get it. Strip that out and you've built an NPC faction with no reason to exist that a reskinned feral horde didn't already cover.

That's assuming the zombies and bandits have the same AI though, which they shouldn't.

What I'm picturing with bandits, and why I'm excited to see them, is they'll be intelligent. The current zombies are literally brain dead. They see a player and walk straight to them without any thought or tactics. Bandits on the other hand should be able to do things like: sneak, fire from cover, flank, retreat, drive vehicles, work as a team, etc.

The name bandit might be the wrong choice, since that implies they only steal things. Maybe a rename is in order?

 

[Grandpa Minion]

That's assuming the zombies and bandits have the same AI though, which they shouldn't.

What I'm picturing with bandits, and why I'm excited to see them, is they'll be intelligent. The current zombies are literally brain dead. They see a player and walk straight to them without any thought or tactics. Bandits on the other hand should be able to do things like: sneak, fire from cover, flank, retreat, drive vehicles, work as a team, etc.

The name bandit might be the wrong choice, since that implies they only steal things. Maybe a rename is in order?

What people fail to realize is that bandits already exist on PvP servers: they are the other players.

No AI bandit can match what a real human can do. A player can watch your habits, track where you live, set traps, fake being friendly, organize a raid, steal your supplies, destroy your base, ambush you, or wait until you are vulnerable. Human opponents adapt in ways scripted NPCs rarely can.

That is why I am not especially excited by bandits as a headline feature. Unless their AI is genuinely exceptional, they will still be a weaker imitation of what PvP servers have already provided for years.

 

[Riamus]

What people fail to realize is that bandits already exist on PvP servers: they are the other players.

No AI bandit can match what a real human can do. A player can watch your habits, track where you live, set traps, fake being friendly, organize a raid, steal your supplies, destroy your base, ambush you, or wait until you are vulnerable. Human opponents adapt in ways scripted NPCs rarely can.

That is why I am not especially excited by bandits as a headline feature. Unless their AI is genuinely exceptional, they will still be a weaker imitation of what PvP servers have already provided for years.

Bandits aren't intended to replace players in a MP game. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that. Bandits are simply a different kind of enemy with different mechanics. They are quite obviously not real players and not intended to be real players. They aren't even "bots" like you'd see in many MP games. They are simply enemies. They are also not intended to be "AI" enemies, where they learn from you. Nowhere have they suggested that these are going to "replace" human opponents. They are just another kind of enemy. That's all.

Now, you listed a bunch of things that you say a player can do and the bandits can't, but some of those things can actually happen and might happen. Bandits could easily be programmed to lay traps. They might not be in the same places a person would place them, but they can still be used if TFP wants to. Bandits can raid your base, steal your supplies, destroy your base... there is already discussion about that, both for and against. But they ARE just enemies and are not humans. They are not intended to be humans, so comparing them to humans isn't any different than comparing zombies or wolves to humans... they are just enemies and are not "AI" and aren't intended to learn or replicate human behavior.

I am not interested in bandits and will most likely disable them. But that's because I play this game for the zombies. I don't need human enemies added as that distracts from the game, imo. But that doesn't change that they are just additional enemies with different mechanics and have nothing to do with replacing real players.

And as a side note, if given the choice of playing the game with bandits or playing on a PVP server, I'll choose bandits every time. At least bandits won't act like children the way PVP servers usually end up being. They won't act all "high and mighty" that they are better than you when all they are doing is killing low level players who have no chance. You'll find that most people choose to avoid PVP because of the other players. With a computer opponent, you don't have to listen to all the nonsense or deal with all the egos. For many people, that's a huge improvement over PVP.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

Bandits aren't intended to replace players in a MP game. I'm not sure why you keep going back to that. Bandits are simply a different kind of enemy with different mechanics. They are quite obviously not real players and not intended to be real players. They aren't even "bots" like you'd see in many MP games. They are simply enemies. They are also not intended to be "AI" enemies, where they learn from you. Nowhere have they suggested that these are going to "replace" human opponents. They are just another kind of enemy. That's all.

Now, you listed a bunch of things that you say a player can do and the bandits can't, but some of those things can actually happen and might happen. Bandits could easily be programmed to lay traps. They might not be in the same places a person would place them, but they can still be used if TFP wants to. Bandits can raid your base, steal your supplies, destroy your base... there is already discussion about that, both for and against. But they ARE just enemies and are not humans. They are not intended to be humans, so comparing them to humans isn't any different than comparing zombies or wolves to humans... they are just enemies and are not "AI" and aren't intended to learn or replicate human behavior.

I am not interested in bandits and will most likely disable them. But that's because I play this game for the zombies. I don't need human enemies added as that distracts from the game, imo. But that doesn't change that they are just additional enemies with different mechanics and have nothing to do with replacing real players.

And as a side note, if given the choice of playing the game with bandits or playing on a PVP server, I'll choose bandits every time. At least bandits won't act like children the way PVP servers usually end up being. They won't act all "high and mighty" that they are better than you when all they are doing is killing low level players who have no chance. You'll find that most people choose to avoid PVP because of the other players. With a computer opponent, you don't have to listen to all the nonsense or deal with all the egos. For many people, that's a huge improvement over PVP.

I am not saying bandits are intended to replace players. I am saying the behavior people are excited about already exists in a stronger form on PvP servers.

Yes, NPC bandits can be programmed to raid, steal, flank, use cover, or set traps. But those behaviors will still be scripted and predictable once players learn the patterns. A human opponent can adapt, deceive, improvise, coordinate, and deliberately exploit your habits.

That does not make bandits pointless. They may be useful for PvE players who want human-style enemies without the social problems that often come with public PvP. I understand that appeal.

My skepticism is about treating bandits as some revolutionary new threat. For PvP players, they will likely be a simplified version of something we have already experienced for years.

 

[Riamus]

I am not saying bandits are intended to replace players. I am saying the behavior people are excited about already exists in a stronger form on PvP servers.

Yes, NPC bandits can be programmed to raid, steal, flank, use cover, or set traps. But those behaviors will still be scripted and predictable once players learn the patterns. A human opponent can adapt, deceive, improvise, coordinate, and deliberately exploit your habits.

That does not make bandits pointless. They may be useful for PvE players who want human-style enemies without the social problems that often come with public PvP. I understand that appeal.

My skepticism is about treating bandits as some revolutionary new threat. For PvP players, they will likely be a simplified version of something we have already experienced for years.

And I'm saying they are not intended to be some "revolutionary new threat" but are just new enemies with new mechanics. They are not intended to act like human players. They are expected to use programmed or scripted patterns that can be learned. That's what a computer opponent is, after all. They are not a replacement and so comparing them to human players is pointless. Yes, they aren't as "good" as human players. Neither are zombies. Just because the bandits are humans instead of zombies doesn't make them a substitute or replacement for human players. Maybe you complained about zombies many years ago, too? Complained that the zombies aren't as good as a human player playing as a zombie? I never saw you complain about that, but maybe you did? Or is it just because bandits are human and so you're complaining that they are not as good as real humans?

Are you just threatened by bandits? Do you think people will prefer them over PVP? That's the only reason I can see for why you keep trying to badmouth bandits and keep comparing them to real players.

In the end, many players will choose computer opponents over human opponents every time. For some, this is because of difficulty. Some players aren't "good" players and can't keep up with real players. There's nothing wrong with that. For others, this is because they don't like the attitudes of other real players. That's the fault of the other real players and the way that the PVP community as a whole portrays itself, both in game and out of game. Others just can't work their schedules around being able to play the game with the same people regularly and so it's easier for them to just play against the computer. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Bandits offer players a new enemy that has different mechanics. They are there for people who want new computer enemies. They are also an obstacle or challenge added even to PVP games that can make PVP more fun for some PVP players who enjoy more of a PvPvE game. And, depending on how they look and move, they may also provide a distraction in PVP where a PVP player may think a bandit is a real person at first, which might keep them occupied just long enough for a real player to kill them. I would think such things would be of interest to you.

But even if bandits are only of benefit to PVE players, this IS a PVE game first and foremost anyhow.

 

[Mr. Perfect]

What people fail to realize is that bandits already exist on PvP servers: they are the other players.

No AI bandit can match what a real human can do. A player can watch your habits, track where you live, set traps, fake being friendly, organize a raid, steal your supplies, destroy your base, ambush you, or wait until you are vulnerable. Human opponents adapt in ways scripted NPCs rarely can.

That is why I am not especially excited by bandits as a headline feature. Unless their AI is genuinely exceptional, they will still be a weaker imitation of what PvP servers have already provided for years.

You know, I almost posted a "Don't mention PvP" tag at the end of my last post, but it felt like I'd be trolling, so didn't.

A human can certainly do all that, but that's not what the draw of bandits is. PvE with AI more intelligent than the zombies is the middle ground we're looking for. It would increase difficulty, but without the "fake being friendly, organize a raid, steal your supplies, destroy your base" bit none of us has the patience for after a long day of work. We'd go play Rust or something for that.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

And I'm saying they are not intended to be some "revolutionary new threat" but are just new enemies with new mechanics. They are not intended to act like human players. They are expected to use programmed or scripted patterns that can be learned. That's what a computer opponent is, after all. They are not a replacement and so comparing them to human players is pointless. Yes, they aren't as "good" as human players. Neither are zombies. Just because the bandits are humans instead of zombies doesn't make them a substitute or replacement for human players. Maybe you complained about zombies many years ago, too? Complained that the zombies aren't as good as a human player playing as a zombie? I never saw you complain about that, but maybe you did? Or is it just because bandits are human and so you're complaining that they are not as good as real humans?

Are you just threatened by bandits? Do you think people will prefer them over PVP? That's the only reason I can see for why you keep trying to badmouth bandits and keep comparing them to real players.

In the end, many players will choose computer opponents over human opponents every time. For some, this is because of difficulty. Some players aren't "good" players and can't keep up with real players. There's nothing wrong with that. For others, this is because they don't like the attitudes of other real players. That's the fault of the other real players and the way that the PVP community as a whole portrays itself, both in game and out of game. Others just can't work their schedules around being able to play the game with the same people regularly and so it's easier for them to just play against the computer. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Bandits offer players a new enemy that has different mechanics. They are there for people who want new computer enemies. They are also an obstacle or challenge added even to PVP games that can make PVP more fun for some PVP players who enjoy more of a PvPvE game. And, depending on how they look and move, they may also provide a distraction in PVP where a PVP player may think a bandit is a real person at first, which might keep them occupied just long enough for a real player to kill them. I would think such things would be of interest to you.

But even if bandits are only of benefit to PVE players, this IS a PVE game first and foremost anyhow.

For single-player, I agree completely: 7 Days to Die is fundamentally a PvE game, obviously those players have no one to compete against, setting there twiddling their thumbs wondering where a bandit is.

On the multiplayer side, though, Over the years, many of the largest and most active servers were PvP servers. That was not accidental. Players were drawn to the risk, rivalries, raids, politics, alliances, betrayals, and long-term competition that only other players could create.

Bandits may add another enemy type for people who prefer PvE in a solo world with minimal threat, and that is fine. But in multiplayer, human conflict has already been a major part of the game’s identity for a very long time.

 

[Riamus]

For single-player, I agree completely: 7 Days to Die is fundamentally a PvE game, obviously those players have no one to compete against, setting there twiddling their thumbs wondering where a bandit is.

On the multiplayer side, though, Over the years, many of the largest and most active servers were PvP servers. That was not accidental. Players were drawn to the risk, rivalries, raids, politics, alliances, betrayals, and long-term competition that only other players could create.

Bandits may add another enemy type for people who prefer PvE in a solo world with minimal threat, and that is fine. But in multiplayer, human conflict has already been a major part of the game’s identity for a very long time.

We've been over this repeatedly. Most players who play MP in this game do NOT play PVP or on PVP servers.

 

[bdubyah]

I am not saying bandits are intended to replace players. I am saying the behavior people are excited about already exists in a stronger form on PvP servers.

Yes, NPC bandits can be programmed to raid, steal, flank, use cover, or set traps. But those behaviors will still be scripted and predictable once players learn the patterns. A human opponent can adapt, deceive, improvise, coordinate, and deliberately exploit your habits.

That does not make bandits pointless. They may be useful for PvE players who want human-style enemies without the social problems that often come with public PvP. I understand that appeal.

My skepticism is about treating bandits as some revolutionary new threat. For PvP players, they will likely be a simplified version of something we have already experienced for years.

No one gives a ■■■■ about PVP here except you. We get it, you don't care about bandits. I do, so do several others. I want a new enemy type in the game and that's what bandits are. I'm not jumping into a cancerous, sweaty, cesspool PVP server just to try and find a new enemy type. That would not ever be enjoyable to me. As you said, bandits are for PVE. You know, the vast majority of 7 Days players?

 

[meganoth]

Bandits may add another enemy type for people who prefer PvE in a solo world with minimal threat, and that is fine. But in multiplayer, human conflict has already been a major part of the game’s identity for a very long time.

The only human conflict I had in my multiplayer games over the years were about the use of push-to-talk or not

 

[Roland]

I am not saying bandits are intended to replace players. I am saying the behavior people are excited about already exists in a stronger form on PvP servers.

“Bandits” are a catch-all term for enemy NPCs and most people grasp this fact which is why they are excited. The behavior of these NPC will not be limited to just assaulting your base but also as challenges in quests, inhabitants of POIs, and eventually players in the story. Many of these behaviors do not exist in any form much less stronger form by players. No player is ever going to willingly spend their own game time to fill a role for my entertainment. Most raids by actual players happen when the victim is offline which is exactly the type of behavior that TFP should avoid for NPCs.

Yes, NPC bandits can be programmed to raid, steal, flank, use cover, or set traps. But those behaviors will still be scripted and predictable once players learn the patterns. A human opponent can adapt, deceive, improvise, coordinate, and deliberately exploit your habits.

Most importantly, NPCs will always fulfill their role without cheating and take on roles that human players would never willingly submit to doing for the entertainment of other human players. NPCs will behave in a balanced and fair manner not trying to cheat or exploit any advantage or wait until the player logs off before making their attack.

That does not make bandits pointless. They may be useful for PvE players who want human-style enemies without the social problems that often come with public PvP. I understand that appeal.

Good. I expect you to stop actively working against their inclusion with every silly post after today.

My skepticism is about treating bandits as some revolutionary new threat. For PvP players, they will likely be a simplified version of something we have already experienced for years.

They are not going to be revolutionary. Nobody thinks they will be. They will be new enemies that will be entertaining in ways zombies can’t offer. They are needed for the story and so that is also exciting for the progress they represent for that aspect of the game. Since these NPCs will fill roles never attempted by human players it is doubtful they will be viewed as simplified versions of anything even PVP players have experienced.