V3.0.1 Stable

[Double G]

Hey I watched some of your Livestream on YouTube last night, great stuff by the way!

I noticed Flyboy & Tarman in the steam.....have you released this yet?
Love your zombie mods bro, these are must haves in my opinion.
Oh yeah, can't wait for your new gore mechanics too

Thank you and not yet on the Tarman and Flyboy release. I need to finish the gore mechanics first, record voice lines for another famous zombie that's gonna be in the pack and I have to simply stop trying to make new mods and lock in and finish the current WIPs.

 

[meganoth]

The major flaw in your reasoning is assuming they would drop equaly spread.

Correct. The number is an estimation. But we could even argue that it is an upper bound since the likelyhood of plane crashes for 7D2D areas should be lower:

Airplanes tend to fly between airports (or airstrips) wich tend to be close to cities. Any spot on the map with a city or airport will drasticly increase the odds.

I get that airports increase the odds and they are mostly near cities, but the city itself doesn't increase the odds. The odds over airport-less cities and wilderness without airports should be the same, and less because the planes should concentrate near airports. 7D2D's cities are ones without airport

Also the assumption that "autopilot" means flying a straight line at equal altitude is not always correct. Regions with mountains would be likely to have a few extra wrecks.

Good points

Also "when the fuel runs out" is most likely not over water since there's always a decent ammount of fuel when crossing the ocean between continents so mostly island bound flights might overshoot the landmass, leaving the majority crash on land.

But a lot of big cities (with airports) are near the coast and almost all domestic flights to them would overshoot into water because they will have at least enough fuel to the airport and some reserve fuel, never less. And half of international flights (the ones going out) would crash into the ocean or foreign countries.

 

[theFlu]

planes should concentrate near airports.

"Near" is a different measure when your coasting speed is about 200mph.

Also, "planes in air concurrently" is a weird metric, unless you're expecting a global EMP to be the cause of all the crashes.. if it's random passengers going feral, then it's .. a few events and every flight is grounded.

 

[Riamus]

1. I’ve just seen a video on YouTube about this Teragon – can’t the developers implement a Teragon or something similar, given that it’s so good?
2. Chicken coop
3. Poi Airport
I’m very interested in that

1. Teragon isn't going to be for everyone. The game needs a very simple and basic map generation system that pretty much anyone can use without effort. Teragon offers FAR more control over map making, but that comes with the cost of a steep learning curve as you have to learn all the various ways you can control the map making process. That's not something that can really be added to the game itself, though they could add specific things to RWG to make it better if they wanted.

2. Already being added.

3. See previous (recent) discussions about airports.

1. I'm sure that TFP knows about Teragon... Maybe they could hire the guy who made it?

Yes, they do. And they know Pille... at least some of them do.

So the distribution of crashed airplanes would be a good bit less random, with the highest distribution likely falling in a large circle around major hubs.

Why is anyone under the impression that there would be a lot of crashed planes? Unless the outbreak affected all the airplanes in the air, the vast majority would land safely. Since this outbreak appears to be confined to Arizona (there isn't clear indication, but we get supplies from elsewhere), the number of planes that might be infected would basically be limited to those leaving Arizona shortly before the outbreak. Even if those crashed, most wouldn't even be over Arizona anymore unless they turned back. And any planes heading to Arizona would have been diverted if they hadn't already safely landed. So you really shouldn't see any significant number of plane crashes. Some, yes. But not large numbers. For a 16 square km area (the large map size the game supports), I wouldn't realistically expect more than a single plane crash. Not unless the outbreak was extremely fast and you had half a dozen take-offs or something within a very short time that all had infected onboard.

Of course it is a game and there can be whatever number of crashes they want. But if we're looking at it from a realistic point of view (since people are discussing the number of planes in the air in real life, I assume we're using a realistic point of view), there just aren't likely to be many crashed planes. Any plane that isn't taken down by zombies on board is almost guaranteed to land somewhere. Pilots aren't just going to let the plane crash. And to take it down, the zombies would have to either be the pilot or flight crew, break down the securely locked cabin door, or break a hole in the side of the plane. Considering the zombies go after living people who are closest to them, they'd be attacking the passengers for quite a long time, giving opportunity to attempt to land even planes that happen to be infested with zombies. Some might still crash, but some would find a place to land, even if it's in a field.

it might not help(i dunno if you are a pc player or not) but nexus has a mod called "biome brush" it lets you make mono-biome worlds which has radically changed the game for me. i have been rocking all-snow maps(barring one little spot of forest for rekt) and will not be going back to vanilla map generation for as long as it is maintained

Even if they don't update it, all you have to do is make a map and then edit the biomes.png file with any image editor and save it before starting a new game and you can have whatever biomes you want. It won't change where traders are, but it will make the biomes however you want them to be, including only one biome.

 

[murky water]

Even if they don't update it, all you have to do is make a map and then edit the biomes.png file with any image editor and save it before starting a new game and you can have whatever biomes you want. It won't change where traders are, but it will make the biomes however you want them to be, including only one biome.

i've done that before but like, it isn't only the technicality of the weather. biome brush lets me have an unbroken biome-specific map. i am not getting what is clearly a desert town plopped down in a winter biome and i am able to have large(enough) cities because the game is populating the world _after_ the map has the correct biome so it isnt breaking the towns up into lil scraps because the game doesnt let towns generate across a biome border

i guess i should specify you use biome-brush in the generator section. you paint it, save it, tab to the world generate, make a custom world

 

[meganoth]

"Near" is a different measure when your coasting speed is about 200mph.

True. We could speculate on the chance that an airport is near our RWG or Navezgane, but TFP could simply decree that no major airport is even in the middle distance making no crashed airplanes plausible.

Furthermore it depends on how the outbreak starts. If airplanes are not taken over immediately but the zombies need to break down the security door first (our zombies can do that) then airplanes would certainly try to fly to the next airport and most would circle over it because the landing zone would be congested.
If the outbreak is producing Romero zombies instead then either almost none of the planes are affected (because its buried dead who arise, or only passengers who die on a plane are converting) and also will be circling airports because they will try to land at their destination or somewhere else when they notice problems down there. Or like Riamus said the outbreak is noticed early enough and all planes are grounded when the collapse of civilization starts in earnest

Also, "planes in air concurrently" is a weird metric, unless you're expecting a global EMP to be the cause of all the crashes.. if it's random passengers going feral, then it's .. a few events and every flight is grounded.

Very good point. But I am not the creator of that hypothesis. Ask him what the exact conditions are for his version of zombie outbreak. I didn't really think about the logic of his scenario and just went with his (assumed) hypothesis that everywhere, even on all planes, people would turn. In a movie it can happen

 

[Dead Smarty]

True. We could speculate on the chance that an airport is near our RWG or Navezgane, but TFP could simply decree that no major airport is even in the middle distance making no crashed airplanes plausible.

This is only correct when assuming aviation is mostly large commercail crafts while in reality the major part of aviation is smaller aircrafts that can operate VFR from a grass strip or dusty road. These "smaller" planes can be still not so small, like a C208b can carry 19 people, and have no seperate cabin so just one feral can do the trick of causing a crash. Even not so smal planes like a Casa or Twin Otter do not require A full scale airport while carrying over 20 passengers or cargo.

Tl,dr; The state of aviation in the USA makes it very likely there will be a few smaller wrecks anywhere on every map. The Gyro we already have is not unlikely, a few forgotten cropdusters are even more likely. Wrecked or operational.

 

[cybersteffe]

Very much enjoying 3.x. Great work guys!

I really like the new magnitude mechanic but think it needs some balancing: in my current play through I have a quality 6 primitive bow with magnitude that is better than the quality 1 iron crossbow I crafted on every single stat That's probably a particularly lucky/unlucky roll, but I've had a lot of other items with better key stats than ones one or two tiers higher due to magnitude. This kind of breaks progression for crafted items. It's a bit frustrating unlocking a new tier of item, but then essentially having to wait until you find some with magnitude in loot to get something that is better than the previous tier.

Not sure what a good solution is. Maybe cap magnitude for the primitive/low tier items?

 

[meganoth]

This is only correct when assuming aviation is mostly large commercail crafts while in reality the major part of aviation is smaller aircrafts that can operate VFR from a grass strip or dusty road. These "smaller" planes can be still not so small, like a C208b can carry 19 people, and have no seperate cabin so just one feral can do the trick of causing a crash. Even not so smal planes like a Casa or Twin Otter do not require A full scale airport while carrying over 20 passengers or cargo.

Tl,dr; The state of aviation in the USA makes it very likely there will be a few smaller wrecks anywhere on every map. The Gyro we already have is not unlikely, a few forgotten cropdusters are even more likely. Wrecked or operational.

The statistic I was quoting claims to be about any aircraft, not only commercial crafts. Even a private C208b needs to say hello to flight control or whatever institution is controlling the air over the states, right? If that is correct you could only argue that a few more are there flying under the radar to smuggle drugs.

And if that statistic is true there would simply be only 1 airplane for 12 maximum size RWG-maps available. If you can't give any reason why planes should concentrate on RWG maps then planes would be a seldom event on a 7D2D map. And that is **before** we reduce the number of airplanes because of successful landings or uneven distribution

 

[Dead Smarty]

The statistic I was quoting claims to be about any aircraft, not only commercial crafts. Even a private C208b needs to say hello to flight control or whatever institution is controlling the air over the states, right? If that is correct you could only argue that a few more are there flying under the radar to smuggle drugs.

Depends on the class of airspace you are in. Smaller fields some times don't even have any form of control. Don't confuse this with using a transponder, this is an entirely different subject and has more to do with airtraffic control than with airports. For Navezgane I think it's perfectly fine to asume it's unregulated airspace.

To be fair, this part of the discussion is completely irrelevant. After all we are talking about a gameworld and TFP does not need a reason to add planes or wrecks.

 

[Riamus]

This is only correct when assuming aviation is mostly large commercail crafts while in reality the major part of aviation is smaller aircrafts that can operate VFR from a grass strip or dusty road. These "smaller" planes can be still not so small, like a C208b can carry 19 people, and have no seperate cabin so just one feral can do the trick of causing a crash. Even not so smal planes like a Casa or Twin Otter do not require A full scale airport while carrying over 20 passengers or cargo.

Tl,dr; The state of aviation in the USA makes it very likely there will be a few smaller wrecks anywhere on every map. The Gyro we already have is not unlikely, a few forgotten cropdusters are even more likely. Wrecked or operational.

This really doesn't make any sense. The fewer people on a plane, the lower the chance of a zombie being on the plane. Unless you are suggesting that the outbreak spreads to the majority of the population and no one notices until a very sudden change happens and all infected people suddenly become full zombies. That's a very unlikely scenario. It it far more likely that either:

• The outbreak starts very small and is noticed but can't be controlled, in which case, planes aren't likely to run into trouble except in rare cases because they would either ground planes before it can spread enough or have measures in place to verify passenger health before they can get on the planes.
• The outbreak spreads very quickly and people are changing to zombies rapidly, in which case, you wouldn't likely get infected while on a plane at the time the outbreak occurs because you wouldn't be near any infected people, so the planes would be safe. The planes would safely land and then they ground all flights out of infected areas. Any planes taking off right at the time of the outbreak and where people are turning into zombies might have trouble, but if it's that quick of a change, they wouldn't get too many taking off from any single airport (airports aren't usually next to one another, so on a 12k (max vanilla size) or 16k map (max size the game supports), you're not likely to have more than one airport and an airport can only put so many planes in the sky in a short period of time). Those limited number might crash in this scenario, but they would have to take out the pilot before the pilot cam make an emergency landing somewhere.

In any case, unless there is some viable reason for everyone to be infected before anyone notices anything, the fewer people in a plane, the less chance one will be infected, so smaller planes are actually the least likely to have crashed. And larger ones are likely to make an emergency landing, either at an airport or on a highway or whatever.

In summary, planes are very unlikely to crash due to some outbreak unless the outbreak is very fast and happens on the plane. If it happens on the plane, it isn't likely to affect other planes because outbreaks have a "patient 0" in most cases (this might potentially be multiple patient 0s if the cause was something that caught multiple people at the same time, such as an explosion or gas leak). This means the outbreak spreads out from one person or a limited number of people and doesn't start everywhere at once. And if the outbreak spreads so slowly no one notices that people are infected, it's extremely unlikely that it would suddenly speed up so quickly that people are turning into zombies fast enough to lead to crashed planes.

There isn't anything wrong with having crashed planes on a map. This is a game, after all. But it isn't all that realistic unless a VERY specific set of events happen related to the outbreak. Sure, that can be possible, but it's extremely unlikely. And until we know the full story of the outbreak, we really can't assume that there's any reason why events would happen in specifically the right way to lead to many planes crashing. And if we're only talking about the rare plane crash, the odds of it being in such a small map is very low, even with an airport on the map. Again, it's fine to add crashed planes because it's a game, but it wouldn't be very realistic and the suggestions that there would be many planes crashing is even less realistic.

So, request airports and crashed planes. But it's better to leave all the reasons why it happens to just being something for the game and not try to prove why it would happen.

 

[meganoth]

Depends on the class of airspace you are in. Smaller fields some times don't even have any form of control. Don't confuse this with using a transponder, this is an entirely different subject and has more to do with airtraffic control than with airports. For Navezgane I think it's perfectly fine to asume it's unregulated airspace.

Instead of guessing I asked google:
"The FAA monitors and manages all civilian and commercial air traffic within the National Airspace System (NAS). Through its extensive network of air traffic controllers, radar systems, and traffic management centers, the FAA ensures the safe separation of aircraft, tracks flight paths, and regulates civil aviation."

That is what I am talking about. The FAA monitors the sky and I would assume know exactly how many planes are in the air at any time. And it would be very surprising for me if they would ignore small airplanes from tower-less airfields.

To be fair, this part of the discussion is completely irrelevant. After all we are talking about a gameworld and TFP does not need a reason to add planes or wrecks.

It is. But someone was bringing the argument there must be many plane wrecks in TFP because of realism: "Which reminds me that there should be crashed airplanes here and there in the world to make things look more realistic. I guess in TFP's world, planes were not invented yet.".
Now we can bring up many reasons why plane wrecks should be in 7D2D, but realism is probably not the right one.

 

[meganoth]

The outbreak spreads very quickly and people are changing to zombies rapidly, in which case, you wouldn't likely get infected while on a plane at the time the outbreak occurs because you wouldn't be near any infected people, so the planes would be safe.

Well, a long incubation time might help spread the disease far, even into lots of airplanes. But it would be almost impossibly unlikely that the outbreak starts everywhere at the same time, i.e. in less time than they could notice the problem and land the majority of planes.

 

[Riamus]

Well, a long incubation time might help spread the disease far, even into lots of airplanes. But it would be almost impossibly unlikely that the outbreak starts everywhere at the same time, i.e. in less time than they could land the majority of planes.

Yeah. I think I mentioned that. I was giving scenarios that would be more likely. There just really isn't a realistic scenario where the infection spreads slowly without people noticing but then people change rapidly out of nowhere (as you said, at the same time). Without that sudden change out of nowhere happening, it just isn't realistic that it would lead to lots of planes crashing. And that's really not how infections/viruses/etc. work. Obviously this is a completely unknown outbreak and might have different characteristics, but things tend to happen in very similar ways because they are still controlled by nature.

 

[Dead Smarty]

This really doesn't make any sense. The fewer people on a plane, the lower the chance of a zombie being on the plane. Unless you are suggesting that the outbreak spreads to the majority of the population and no one notices until a very sudden change happens and all infected people suddenly become full zombies.

A more likely scenario would be: Appocalipse happens, people start scavaging, few people find airplanes in barn and small airstrips, some try using it, many of those crash while learning to fly. The zombies are not likely involved in most of the crashes but it is very likely desperate people trying to use smaller airplanes to get away from Zombieland.
In a slow outbreak large airports will be likely the first to close down to prevent global spread, making crashed Jumbo's very unlikely. Remember Covid?

Instead of guessing I asked google:
"The FAA monitors and manages all civilian and commercial air traffic within the National Airspace System (NAS). Through its extensive network of air traffic controllers, radar systems, and traffic management centers, the FAA ensures the safe separation of aircraft, tracks flight paths, and regulates civil aviation."

That is what I am talking about. The FAA monitors the sky and I would assume know exactly how many planes are in the air at any time. And it would be very surprising for me if they would ignore small airplanes from tower-less airfields.

Yay... AI answer at it's best... Ask Google for the different classes (A to G) and their specific requirements to understand what I was talking about, this answer does not make a difference between controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Uncontrolled does also not mean unmonitored but there is a large part of the airspace "under the radar", making it impossible to know the exact number of planes and their whereabouts for the FAA.
Fun fact: The FAA did not even know it's own director authorized a 727 for skydive operations for the WFC at Quincy... Not to mention the blunders that allowed 9/11 to happen.

 

[Riamus]

A more likely scenario would be: Appocalipse happens, people start scavaging, few people find airplanes in barn and small airstrips, some try using it, many of those crash while learning to fly. The zombies are not likely involved in most of the crashes but it is very likely desperate people trying to use smaller airplanes to get away from Zombieland.

You're joking, right? People will take cars they find. If they have no idea how to fly, they're not going to try. That is practically suicide. If given the choice of trying to fly a plane, when I think the majority of people know that's not something you just try and it works, you'd use basically anything else. You'd be better off walking than making any attempt to fly a plane without instruction.

 

[meganoth]

A more likely scenario would be: Appocalipse happens, people start scavaging, few people find airplanes in barn and small airstrips, some try using it, many of those crash while learning to fly. The zombies are not likely involved in most of the crashes but it is very likely desperate people trying to use smaller airplanes to get away from Zombieland.
In a slow outbreak large airports will be likely the first to close down to prevent global spread, making crashed Jumbo's very unlikely. Remember Covid?

So assuming there are a few hundreds or even a thousand people doing this lunatic stunt of flying a plane when they can't fly a plane and crash it, but commercial planes getting grounded: Where do you see 66000 crashed planes so that we would have on average one crashed plane per 12x12 km area of 7D2D map?

Yay... AI answer at it's best... Ask Google for the different classes (A to G) and their specific requirements to understand what I was talking about, this answer does not make a difference between controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Uncontrolled does also not mean unmonitored but there is a large part of the airspace "under the radar", making it impossible to know the exact number of planes and their whereabouts for the FAA.
Fun fact: The FAA did not even know it's own director authorized a 727 for skydive operations for the WFC at Quincy... Not to mention the blunders that allowed 9/11 to happen.

Ok. I read some further sources and yes, the lower altitudes may have not been included in those numbers. Lets assume that the unaccounted for small planes would double the numbers then we have 1 plane in every 6th map. If we also assume that the 5500 I quoted is an old number and all the numbers are double that we are at 1 plane every 3rd map.

We are still far from having realistically lots of plane wrecks per 7d2d map

 

[Jost Amman]

You guys have been talking and talking about planes and airports doing this and that... but you're livin' in lala land the way you talk.

You completely forget about infrastructure, politics and law enforcement. The only one that (correctly) mentioned how a pandemic really is handled was Dead Smarty.

(big) Airports are part of a global network and need to coordinate with other airports, and even other countries (if the flight is long range).
Airports have an infrastructure that needs to be up and running before any plane lifts off. If anything is missing (fuel, maintenance, ground personnel, people, luggage) they simply can't take off.

Airports are indirectly subject to the authority of the state and country through the FTA (in USA), so if the president (or even the local governor) declares an embargo, no one can lift off from ANY airport.

During a pandemic law enforcement CAN intervene when the violation of rules put people at risk, so we can assume that as long as law enforcement was active, airports were also guarded by cops and/or military (similar to the military checkpoints we see in the game).

All in all what I'm saying is that most of you guys run statistics and pick your brains over ONE detail (airports), but you're not considering that airports are just part of a bigger infrastructure and society with many complex parts moving together.

Considering this, what is my opinion?

Unless the zombie pandemic was spreading at the speed of light with no possible warning or reaction time by the government, there shouldn't be ANY crashed (big) planes at all in AZ. But we already have proof the zed pandemic wasn't going at lightning speed, because otherwise the military wouldn't have had time to setup the checkpoints at the edge of cities the way we see them in the game.

 

[meganoth]

You guys have been talking and talking about planes and airports doing this and that... but you're livin' in lala land the way you talk.

You completely forget about infrastructure, politics and law enforcement. The only one that (correctly) mentioned how a pandemic really is handled was Dead Smarty.

(big) Airports are part of a global network and need to coordinate with other airports, and even other countries (if the flight is long range).
Airports have an infrastructure that needs to be up and running before any plane lifts off. If anything is missing (fuel, maintenance, ground personnel, people, luggage) they simply can't take off.

Airports are indirectly subject to the authority of the state and country through the FTA (in USA), so if the president (or even the local governor) declares an embargo, no one can lift off from ANY airport.

During a pandemic law enforcement CAN intervene when the violation of rules put people at risk, so we can assume that as long as law enforcement was active, airports were also guarded by cops and/or military (similar to the military checkpoints we see in the game).

All in all what I'm saying is that most of you guys run statistics and pick your brains over ONE detail (airports), but you're not considering that airports are just part of a bigger infrastructure and society with many complex parts moving together.

Considering this, what is my opinion?

Unless the zombie pandemic was spreading at the speed of light with no possible warning or reaction time by the government, there shouldn't be ANY crashed (big) planes at all in AZ. But we already have proof the zed pandemic wasn't going at lightning speed, because otherwise the military wouldn't have had time to setup the checkpoints at the edge of cities the way we see them in the game.

The honor of mentioning belongs to Riamus I believe. And I agree on that but if you had read the whole boring thread you would know that I agree, but want to invalidate a theory brought up here from a different angle. If an assumption is wrong it often can be invalidated with multiple different arguments.

 

[Jost Amman]

In a slow outbreak large airports will be likely the first to close down to prevent global spread, making crashed Jumbo's very unlikely. Remember Covid?

The honor of mentioning belongs to Riamus I believe.

I was referring to the comment on the top.