PC V2.0 Storms Brewing Dev Diary

[Double G]

Regarding storms, we have reviewed alot of feedback and have some plans on how to improve the experience with them. Some of which sound similar to some of the suggestions I have read / seen from the community. Stay tuned.

That's great to hear!

As a side note, Area 7 is incredible. I finally had a quest there the other day. Next to the Nightmare on Elm Street house, it's my favorite POI now.

 

[LittleNightma]

Hopefully your plans include ways to mitigate storm damage instead of getting rid of storm damage altogether.

Storms should be lethal to the unwary, careless, or unprepared. But there should be some kind of gear or consumable that reduces storm damage to manageable levels. Mitigation, not negation!

@meganoth recently suggested keeping biome smoothies useful (even after you've gotten the biome badge) by allowing the smoothies to lower storm damage by a considerable amount. I hate smoothies -- and wish we'd gotten proper gear/items instead of magical potions -- but that would be an excellent way to keep them relevant throughout the game.

According to faatal, they are not getting rid of damage.

 

[meganoth]

I just plan on the cost being 15-20 lockpicks and always keep 20 on me. When it's less it feels good. When you get those rare times where you unlock it with one lockpick it's fist pumping time! I guess it's the expectations that people have that it should be able to always be done with 1-5 lockpicks so they're mad when it's more. I expect 15ish and am happy when it's less.

But I'm all for a visual change or skill-based change or an improving odds with each break change....whatever. It isn't a major issue to me. People who are driven crazy by it can drink the potion.

Like Fisher said, the main problem people seem to have with the lockpicking is the purely psychological thing of seeing the the last step repeated again and again. I don't care myself, but one or two of my co-players simply never use lockpicking because of this and always go partly or totally STR to simply hack open any safes.

I think the devs who did this liked the open-endedness of this scheme, where you actually could break infinite lockpicks or be done with only 1. Psychologically a player remembers only the safes where he wasted 20 lockpicks though (when in reality it was only 12). And since that can happen at any perk level many players believe that the perk does nothing.

To combat that impression: Instead of a dice roll I would simply display a circle and the failure chance would be shown as a red arc at the end of that circle.
The internal dice roll would determine the angle up to which that circle would flash. If it reaches the red arc the lockpick breaks.
And most importantly, perking into lockpicks would visibly shrink that red arc.

 

[zztong]

I haven't seen one suggestion for a better method that is not a minigame but I'd like to hear some.

I guess it doesn't matter to me if there's a minigame, or not, but breaking lockpicks isn't really a thing. Come visit. I'll take you to the lab and you can play with all sorts of thieves' tools. I've never had a student break a pick; they're made out of steel. I've had a student bend one and I just bent it back into place so they could continue.

If I were to design a mini-game, I think I'd focus on collecting the tools to determine which locks you can open and collecting practice locks (kind of like magazines) to increase your speed. I won't go into the details as I know it won't lead to change. It isn't arguably better play.

What I find interesting, even humorous, is that in the game you use a pick on a combination lock. Likewise, a pick isn't going to open the T5 loot electronic lock. (A magnet might.) I also find it interesting that perhaps the easiest locks to defeat (residential doors) can only be destroyed.

The current game has this effect on my play... I take the lockpicking skill to get more magazines for workstations. If I have a pick, I'll use it on the lock, but late game I'll just break the safe open with a steel tool because the steel tool and the picks both take an inventory slot but the steel tool opens everything and picks don't.

 

[Mr. Perfect]

If all people want to see are the actual checkpoints then your suggestion is fine. It's still watching a timer and the pick might break on that last "tumbler" ten times. I don't see much of an improvement. Currently the timer doesn't go all the way back to the beginning but saves your progress at the last point where your pick broke. So a visual change while waiting for a timer to count down and picks breaking along the way is all that's needed?

I'd be content with that. Sometimes it's just transparency in a system that people are looking for, and Dreyseth's suggesting would clear up how the lock picking works.

Also: please no minigames. I've played Bethesda's same lockpicking minigame in 2008's Fallout 3, 2010's Fallout New Vegas, 2011's Skyrim, 2015's Fallout 4 and 2018's Fallout 76 and if I never see another god ■■■■ lockpicking minigame in my entire life it will be to soon! I should go through all my savegames and total up the times I've played that thing, I bet it's in the thousands.

 

[Dark Sun]

Like Fisher said, the main problem people seem to have with the lockpicking is the purely psychological thing of seeing the the last step repeated again and again. I don't care myself, but one or two of my co-players simply never use lockpicking because of this and always go partly or totally STR to simply hack open any safes.

I think the devs who did this liked the open-endedness of this scheme, where you actually could break infinite lockpicks or be done with only 1. Psychologically a player remembers only the safes where he wasted 20 lockpicks though (when in reality it was only 12). And since that can happen at any perk level many players believe that the perk does nothing.

To combat that impression: Instead of a dice roll I would simply display a circle and the failure chance would be shown as a red arc at the end of that circle.
The internal dice roll would determine the angle up to which that circle would flash. If it reaches the red arc the lockpick breaks.
And most importantly, perking into lockpicks would visibly shrink that red arc.

This is precisely the problem for me. Snapping 20 lockpicks on a small safe, and more to the point, half of them the instant I clicked the interact button, is simply frustrating. (The perk seems to achieve nothing either; some claim the opposite effect.) If applying timed charges were faster and they stacked higher, or if shotgun breaching rounds were cheaper, and both had a decent chance per application to deal no damage, I wouldn't use them either, not when your pickaxe can easily serve as the skeleton key. I'd be more in favor of a singular lockpick that came with a durability meter.

If lockpicking were made more tolerable, I'd imagine any of the men playing the game would still primarily use the aforementioned method, and he would only occasionally divert into one of the other alternatives, but that is fine. Personally, I only use breaching rounds when I'm going for a shotgun-focused run, and I typically only bother with timed charged if I'm going down Perception and Demolitions Expert.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I guess it doesn't matter to me if there's a minigame, or not, but breaking lockpicks isn't really a thing. Come visit. I'll take you to the lab and you can play with all sorts of thieves' tools. I've never had a student break a pick; they're made out of steel. I've had a student bend one and I just bent it back into place so they could continue.

If I were to design a mini-game, I think I'd focus on collecting the tools to determine which locks you can open and collecting practice locks (kind of like magazines) to increase your speed. I won't go into the details as I know it won't lead to change. It isn't arguably better play.

What I find interesting, even humorous, is that in the game you use a pick on a combination lock. Likewise, a pick isn't going to open the T5 loot electronic lock. (A magnet might.) I also find it interesting that perhaps the easiest locks to defeat (residential doors) can only be destroyed.

The current game has this effect on my play... I take the lockpicking skill to get more magazines for workstations. If I have a pick, I'll use it on the lock, but late game I'll just break the safe open with a steel tool because the steel tool and the picks both take an inventory slot but the steel tool opens everything and picks don't.

In most games I've played over the years, bashing open (or blowing up) containers risks breaking some of the items stored inside. That's how they balance lockpicking vs brute strength.

 

[Dark Sun]

In most games I've played over the years, bashing open (or blowing up) containers risks breaking some of the items stored inside. That's how they balance lockpicking vs brute strength.

Not in favor. Darkness Falls does this and, call it half glass full mentality, but the knowledge that smashing open a container will remove 20% of its contents will only pigeonhole people further. Bare minimum, make lockpicking much more tolerable first before considering this.

 

[EvilPolygons]

Not in favor. Darkness Falls does this and, call it half glass full mentality, but the knowledge that smashing open a container will remove 20% of its contents will only pigeonhole people further. Bare minimum, make lockpicking much more tolerable first before considering this.

It's been a common game mechanic in RPGs for at least 30 or 40 years. It might not appeal to the "have my cake and eat it too" crowd, but it's a perfectly balanced mechanic.

 

[Dark Sun]

It's been a common game mechanic in RPGs for at least 30 or 40 years. It might not appeal to the "have my cake and eat it too" crowd, but it's a perfectly balanced mechanic.

That's fine. (I'm not familiar at all with that genre, personally, but I trust your judgment.) As I've stated above however, the nonsense of your lockpicks snapping instantly without any sort of grace period turns me off from using them outright, honestly. Again, if the perk / rogue gloves made a noticeable and largely consistent effect, then I would reconsider.

 

[EvilPolygons]

That's fine. (I'm not familiar at all with that genre, personally, but I trust your judgment.) As I've stated above however, the nonsense of your lockpicks snapping instantly without any sort of grace period turns me off from using them outright, honestly. Again, if the perk / rogue gloves made a noticeable and largely consistent effect, then I would reconsider.

The lockpicking mechanic has been discussed to death already in this thread, but here's my 2 cents worth:

Breaking boatloads of picks doesn't bother me because that's just a standard thing in these kinds of games. What bothers me is the loooong windup time on the initial couple of picking attempts. I don't think it annoys me nearly as much as it seems to annoy other people, but it is annoying. Despite the dev's intentions, the windup doesn't build tension or anticipation -- it's just irritating.

Instead of the long windup, I'd much rather have a few seconds of rattling and then have the pick break. Rinse and repeat until the lock opens or I run out of picks. If they really want locks to take a certain amount of time to pick, then they can do that without using an unpredictable windup gimmick.

But please, no lockpicking minigames. I get enough of that with Bethesda's games.

 

[Dark Sun]

The lockpicking mechanic has been discussed to death already in this thread, but here's my 2 cents worth:

Breaking boatloads of picks doesn't bother me because that's just a standard thing in these kinds of games. What bothers me is the loooong windup time on the initial couple of picking attempts. I don't think it annoys me nearly as much as it seems to annoy other people, but it is annoying. Despite the dev's intentions, the windup doesn't build tension or anticipation -- it's just irritating.

Instead of the long windup, I'd much rather have a few seconds of rattling and then have the pick break. Rinse and repeat until the lock opens or I run out of picks. If they really want locks to take a certain amount of time to pick, then they can do that without using an unpredictable windup gimmick.

But please, no lockpicking minigames. I get enough of that with Bethesda's games.

Mmhmm. Final suggestions I'll say on the matter:

1) The final quarter of the process is where you'll break 90% of your lockpicks, again, many of them instantly. I'd remove the latter bs entirely (give us at least 1-2 second grace period), and make the chance to break your lockpick uniform throughout.

2) The lockpicking perk and rogue gloves should function, and consistently. Timed charges because noticeably more effective if you put points into the boom perk; why not follow the same logic here?

 

[Mister Forgash]

I just got around to playing in the burnt biome last night.. I know, took a while, it's been hard to find the time lately.
Before when I complained of storms it was largely from a viewpoint of how it sounded like they work .. Now I have a little first hand experience.

I still think they're a little half-baked.. or perhaps closer to 80% baked. Looking forward to what we have after the team cooks on them for another week or so. Personal feeling: (which I've seen a few others express as well) Reduce the incoming damage, but add a movespeed debuff as well as a stamina regen debuff. - I also heard blurry vision, I'd love that mixed with feral sense, I love the idea of the zombies feeling really agitated with the storm blowing around. I also agree with the sentiment that we're going to need some kind of visual if it's storming in the neighboring biome - But I think I saw that's being looked into.
I'd like if there were some armor mods you can take advantage of to make storms less of a problem.

I'd like to see the storm in the forest Biome have some minor effects.. maybe just a stamina regen debuff and blurry vision. .. something that encourages the thought of 'Oh it's storming out, maybe I'll change my plans for the day' and builds good behavior for when you start seeing more dangerous storms.

This opinion is likely less popular, but I'll say it anyhow.
... Still hoping we see temperature come back. The forest, being mild would only rarely have temperature extreme, but I think the burnt biome would be hot, desert would be hot too, but sometimes the nights would get real cold.. I think I'd most like to see the burnt/desert smoothie folded into 'hot weather smoothie' and snow into a cold weather smoothie.. and that for most players, by the time they're entering these biomes they've already had some experience with weather extremes in more forgiving places.

Looking forward to what we see in another month or so once changes are made. Thanks for reading.

 

[Mister Forgash]

Also, since lockpicking seems to be the hot topic right now, I'll add in my opinion- I'd also like to see us get X-Y seconds of guaranteed lockpicking - Something to space it out so that you don't pick the lock for 12 seconds, break the pick, then break your next 10 picks instantly. Maybe harder things to lockpick can break them faster, that's cool, I just would like to roughly gauge if my 20 picks will be enough rather that get 90% of the way there in 1 go, then break everything else as fast as I can hit the e button.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

It's been a common game mechanic in RPGs for at least 30 or 40 years. It might not appeal to the "have my cake and eat it too" crowd, but it's a perfectly balanced mechanic.

I think you forgot to mention It’s a “perfectly balanced mechanic” in a game that has been designed and balanced around its presence in that particular game. There is no natural law that makes it perfectly balanced in all cases.

In my opinion the real friction with the lockpicking system is that quest loot chests are locked. The end result being is that in every tier 3+ quest you do you have to engage with the mechanic by either smashing the chest or trying to lock pick it. If locked containers were limited to safes and cop cars, it would be, and feel like, an optional game system that the player chooses to interact with. Instead, it becomes an increasingly frustrating mechanic because you are forced to engage with it in every POI once you start doing tier 3 quests.

 

[HammerDano]

Honestly...I am stumped

How do you reinvent lockpicking WITHOUT changing it but make it more satisfying?

some things need to be locked...some things that are locked cannot be picked at all

it's just a balancing thing that they will get to...let them get the big stuff out of the way (imo)

 

[Morloc]

TFP should keep the physical damage but add in wearable mods, consumable items, or whatever to allow us to diminish the damage to a level where we can be outside for the entire storm and perhaps lose at most half of our health. Before we have those things it's good that the storms kill us pretty rapidly. But after we acquire/craft/buy those things then we survive outside even though we still take some damage.

Aye. I've been caught a couple times digging up treasure map chests and had to box myself in. Not much to do there after repairing everything, making a couple rolls of duct tape, etc.

I'd much prefer a difficult (but not so deadly) time outside where I could do things, or get to a POI to do even more things safe from the storm.
I think the biome smoothies are the obvious candidate for this.
Some General perks could stack with or at least parallel the smoothies (Healthy Lungs, Cold Blooded, Prestoned, Lead-Skinned), and a new set of armor mods providing protection from the storms in each biome (armor slots often go unfilled as it is).
If you wanted you could also require the biome badge before any/most of this protection would work so you couldn't bypass the need for the badge.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I think you forgot to mention It’s a “perfectly balanced mechanic” in a game that has been designed and balanced around its presence in that particular game. There is no natural law that makes it perfectly balanced in all cases.

In my opinion the real friction with the lockpicking system is that quest loot chests are locked. The end result being is that in every tier 3+ quest you do you have to engage with the mechanic by either smashing the chest or trying to lock pick it. If locked containers were limited to safes and cop cars, it would be, and feel like, an optional game system that the player chooses to interact with. You also wouldn’t have to engage with it in every single quest reducing the frustration caused by the current system.

Well, you do have the option to ignore those locked POI chests. I mean, your head won't explode if you decide not to open one. I promise.

Regardless, you do get to choose how to engage with the mechanic. You can choose to pick or to bash. That's a choice. Relying on bashing means you don't have to ever spend points on lockpicking. The benefit is you have more points to put into other things, but the downside is a random chance to break a piece of loot when bashing a loot container. It's a trade off.

Some people really don't like being forced to make trade offs. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.

 

[Riamus]

It's been a common game mechanic in RPGs for at least 30 or 40 years. It might not appeal to the "have my cake and eat it too" crowd, but it's a perfectly balanced mechanic.

Yes, but look at a lot of those RPGs (perhaps most). How does lockpicking work in them? In some cases, you use up one lockpick for a lock to be guaranteed to open it, so long as you have the right skill level to open that particular lock. Your option to bash it open and have things damaged just offers an alternative, but you won't go through 20 lockpicks to open it. In others, you have a minigame like Bethesda does and whether or not you break any is entirely based on your own skill in completing the minigame. Even in ones that let you break multiple lockpicks without being based on skill, I am pretty certain I've never seen another game where I can break 20 lockpicks on a single lock when it's not skill-based. And, yes... I've counted out 20 broken lockpicks before.

Add in that the main loot chests are locked in higher tier POI and breaking stuff in chests that you break open just isn't a good option for this game. It's different when it's just a random chest somewhere. And even in those, if the chest contains something important, it's usually set to not break in RPG games.

 

[Suxar]

I think the devs who did this liked the open-endedness of this scheme, where you actually could break infinite lockpicks or be done with only 1. Psychologically a player remembers only the safes where he wasted 20 lockpicks though (when in reality it was only 12). And since that can happen at any perk level many players believe that the perk does nothing.

Those who think so, just have little experience in the game. Without hacking skills, the number of lockpicks is constantly decreasing, sometimes you even have to make or buy them. With skill, their number increases, you have to constantly lay out.