PC v1.x Developer Diary

[Javabean867]

*snip*

I think the issue you are running into here, is a you issue.  You came in here expecting people to get riled up with you, when this community has been built steadily over the past decade.  We understand that they are still a very small developer, who took on an incredible challenge.   They reached for the stars, created a devoted following, and communicated to their fans what to expect.

And what was that?  Its early access, nothing is set in stone.  Systems and features will change.  they will honor the Kick Starter promises.  And most importantly, it will be done, when it is done.

They do not owe anyone anything more than that.  I have nearly 3000 hours into a game, that i spent 20 bucks for.  I have (in my mind) gotten 6 full games worth of play time in that time.   Many of us feel that way as well and just do not see what you are seeing.   

 

[firewalker101]

It will be a glorious day when dedicated server option goes live / active. other stuff i can live with as they tend to it over time, but that dedicated server for my aspect of things would be my ideal top priority. then stability / memory optimization  as 2nd, POI mission fix as 3rd  and then weather condition / bandits as 4th.

 

[YourMirror]

I think the issue you are running into here, is a you issue.  You came in here expecting people to get riled up with you, when this community has been built steadily over the past decade.  We understand that they are still a very small developer, who took on an incredible challenge.   They reached for the stars, created a devoted following, and communicated to their fans what to expect.

And what was that?  Its early access, nothing is set in stone.  Systems and features will change.  they will honor the Kick Starter promises.  And most importantly, it will be done, when it is done.

They do not owe anyone anything more than that.  I have nearly 3000 hours into a game, that i spent 20 bucks for.  I have (in my mind) gotten 6 full games worth of play time in that time.   Many of us feel that way as well and just do not see what you are seeing.   

Yeah, looks like he is very disappointed in not getting a riot started. For someone that cant read that can be overwhelming. So feel pitty for him with me

 

[zztong]

Then why did they put out a roadmap? The attitude from this site is : shutup about the roadmap...it was only to fool people into thinking TFP were actually going to finish the game soon...not to actually say WHEN they were going to do that. TFP are blameless...for anything and everything.

I can agree the roadmap is confusing in that it makes things seem like deadlines/promises when TFP's pattern is to establish goals, not deadlines. So why put out a roadmap? It signals where they are headed even if the dates are aspirational. They regularly go past their goals. Some of their goals aren't entirely under their control when it comes to the Consoles.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd say my attitude is I'm willing to "go with the flow." I can't really summon any outrage on this. Not that TFP is blameless, but that there's nothing worthy of blame. The estimates were wrong. That's pretty much normal in a software project. As a former developer and project manager I'm happy their team gets holidays and can be chill about goals. It beats the heck out of a "death march" development effort. It's a luxury their stakeholders (owners) appear to have.

 

[HammerDano]

I think the issue you are running into here, is a you issue.  You came in here expecting people to get riled up with you, when this community has been built steadily over the past decade.  We understand that they are still a very small developer, who took on an incredible challenge.   They reached for the stars, created a devoted following, and communicated to their fans what to expect.

And what was that?  Its early access, nothing is set in stone.  Systems and features will change.  they will honor the Kick Starter promises.  And most importantly, it will be done, when it is done.

They do not owe anyone anything more than that.  I have nearly 3000 hours into a game, that i spent 20 bucks for.  I have (in my mind) gotten 6 full games worth of play time in that time.   Many of us feel that way as well and just do not see what you are seeing.   

This is very definitely a PC community. That gives not the slightest @%$# about consoles. Since it has released You have never not had a playable version. Anything that's missing...find a mod. Good for you. So when a bug breaks games over xmas for console users and they expect it to be fixed or at least addressed...what do we hear from this carefully cultivated community? they'll fix it when they fix it...stop trying to make them abuse their employees...just @%$# off until this gets finished. 

I don't expect you to be outraged….would be nice if you could find some compassion. 

I will say it again. There were three dev streams pre release...console questions were not welcome at any of them. There was no console gameplay, there was no conversation about how much was missing for console or if they should wait until it was more feature complete. I have pointed out the Guns Nerds and Steel interview from 2022 where They themselves acknowledged that the game needed to be more feature complete for console before they re-released. guess they got distracted by something shiny and forgot. We don't have work a rounds...how is this hard to grasp?

How long I am supposed to wait for this roadmap to be complete? 3 years? 4? it's done when it's done? good grief.

 

[zztong]

This is very definitely a PC community. That gives not the slightest @%$# about consoles. Since it has released You have never not had a playable version. Anything that's missing...find a mod. Good for you. So when a bug breaks games over xmas for console users and they expect it to be fixed or at least addressed...what do we hear from this carefully cultivated community? they'll fix it when they fix it...stop trying to make them abuse their employees...just @%$# off until this gets finished. 

I don't expect you to be outraged…would be nice if you could find some compassion. 

You're right, but this is the PC forum. I've not been in the Console forum.

I can have plenty of compassion for the console players. They were stuck on an old version for a very, very long time. They can't get updates as fast as the PC. They don't have access to mods. You're right I'm not suffering and that will certainly affect my view; those are some of the reasons why I've chosen not to continue to own a console. But I feel for you. It would be great to share a game with you.

The PC side has had some problems in the past and "they'll fix it when the fix it" prevails. You can't dictate everything; some bugs take a lot of time to figure out. I recall a problem we had with some code in the USAF where we spent a great many hours trying to isolate it, and then ultimately changed just a few lines of code once we figured it out. It was quite the multiprocessing puzzle and adding diagnostics would hide the problem because it changed the timing.

How long I am supposed to wait for this roadmap to be complete? 3 years? 4? it's done when it's done? good grief.

Nobody knows. Place your bet.

Can you imagine falling into a bottomless pit? At first you panic and scream. Then you calm down. Eventually you go to sleep. My point being your perspective changes the more you observe. Would it really be bad if it took 3-4 years? Is "it's done when it's done" really a bad philosophy? I know many software developers who like that philosophy, though not all can deal with the commercial ramifications of adopting it. TFP seems to be able to do so.

 

[HammerDano]

You're right, but this is the PC forum. I've not been in the Console forum.

I can have plenty of compassion for the console players. They were stuck on an old version for a very, very long time. They can't get updates as fast as the PC. They don't have access to mods. You're right I'm not suffering and that will certainly affect my view; those are some of the reasons why I've chosen not to continue to own a console. But I feel for you. It would be great to share a game with you.

The PC side has had some problems in the past and "they'll fix it when the fix it" prevails. You can't dictate everything; some bugs take a lot of time to figure out. I recall a problem we had with some code in the USAF where we spent a great many hours trying to isolate it, and then ultimately changed just a few lines of code once we figured it out. It was quite the multiprocessing puzzle and adding diagnostics would hide the problem because it changed the timing.

Nobody knows. Place your bet.

Can you imagine falling into a bottomless pit? At first you panic and scream. Then you calm down. Eventually you go to sleep. My point being your perspective changes the more you observe. Would it really be bad if it took 3-4 years? Is "it's done when it's done" really a bad philosophy? I know many software developers who like that philosophy, though not all can deal with the commercial ramifications of adopting it. TFP seems to be able to do so.

Truly appreciate your decency.

How do you think that would go over with the public If they admitted to console it will be another 3-4 years before it is finished? 

 

[zztong]

How do you think that would go over with the public If they admitted to console it will be another 3-4 years before it is finished?

Of course this is entirely speculation...

I would expect a wide range of reactions. On one end of the spectrum there would be people with sharp words about the competency of the developers and wild claims about the developers intentions and ulterior motives, somewhat bordering on conspiracy theories, but ultimately just their imagination filling in the gaps of their knowledge. Next there would be people vocally expressing their disappointment. Some of those two groups would stop playing. My suspicion would be they stop playing out of boredom because the game is very familiar to them and they want new challenges. (That happens naturally anyways.) But certainly there would be some who stop playing because their view of events has spoiled the fun for them. Many of them would come back for the next release, but not all of them -- some would have had their imagination captured by another game and some will stand on some principle that only they understand as they have turned events into a personal affront. Somewhere in the middle, folks will be disappointed with delays and still play or just quietly move on. Towards the other end, folks won't care. They've got a stable game now they enjoy playing. The next version might continue to capture their imagination or it might not. For some of those people they'll turn to mods to preserve something they liked or alter something they didn't -- if they have that option. (Sorry console.) A tiny number of people will continue to play an older version. At the other extreme, folks with some extended loyalty to TFP will cherish whatever they produce whenever they produce it. Some folks towards this end will act as apologists for TFP's circumstances also filling in the gaps of their knowledge with the imagination and speculation ... kind of like what I'm doing.

I have no inside contact with TFP. No inside knowledge. No crystal ball. All I do is try to apply my life's experiences to what I observe. A maxim I've heard and like is "don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence." But the word "incompetence" I feel needs to be broadly defined. By that, I include undertaking actions with a low percentage chance of success or doing something for the first time. Software estimates from my experiences are rarely based on collected metrics and typically involve a task the developer has not done before and doesn't know all of the important factors. There's some discovery along the way. But If they were digging their 100th ditch, they'd make great estimates. They'd have shop times like mechanics do. So to me, estimates for software is where a kind of incompetence shines, but not because the individuals are stupid or unprofessional.

Sorry for the ramble.

 

[HammerDano]

Of course this is entirely speculation...

I would expect a wide range of reactions. On one end of the spectrum there would be people with sharp words about the competency of the developers and wild claims about the developers intentions and ulterior motives, somewhat bordering on conspiracy theories, but ultimately just their imagination filling in the gaps of their knowledge. Next there would be people vocally expressing their disappointment. Some of those two groups would stop playing. My suspicion would be they stop playing out of boredom because the game is very familiar to them and they want new challenges. (That happens naturally anyways.) But certainly there would be some who stop playing because their view of events has spoiled the fun for them. Many of them would come back for the next release, but not all of them -- some would have had their imagination captured by another game and some will stand on some principle that only they understand as they have turned events into a personal affront. Somewhere in the middle, folks will be disappointed with delays and still play or just quietly move on. Towards the other end, folks won't care. They've got a stable game now they enjoy playing. The next version might continue to capture their imagination or it might not. For some of those people they'll turn to mods to preserve something they liked or alter something they didn't -- if they have that option. (Sorry console.) A tiny number of people will continue to play an older version. At the other extreme, folks with some extended loyalty to TFP will cherish whatever they produce whenever they produce it. Some folks towards this end will act as apologists for TFP's circumstances also filling in the gaps of their knowledge with the imagination and speculation ... kind of like what I'm doing.

I have no inside contact with TFP. No inside knowledge. No crystal ball. All I do is try to apply my life's experiences to what I observe. A maxim I've heard and like is "don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence." But the word "incompetence" I feel needs to be broadly defined. By that, I include undertaking actions with a low percentage chance of success or doing something for the first time. Software estimates from my experiences are rarely based on collected metrics and typically involve a task the developer has not done before and doesn't know all of the important factors. There's some discovery along the way. But If they were digging their 100th ditch, they'd make great estimates. They'd have shop times like mechanics do. So to me, estimates for software is where a kind of incompetence shines, but not because the individuals are stupid or unprofessional.

Sorry for the ramble.

I see no rambling, just a well thought out response.

Its more than reasonable to say there would likely be a diverse reaction.

I think if their plan is "it'll get done when it's done"...I won't be the only person these guys will be sick of hearing. (gee...if only they would post regular updates and cut off these complaints)

As an observation, IF they plan to keep making games, they should just stick to PC...you guys will get a better game that is in no way throttled by our console limitations.

Console wouldn't have to hear that once again their hardware really ain't good enough for the devs, but, they gonna hold their nose and push out a console version...eventually.

If they need a cash infusion they can just turn to their fan boys...they seem willing to forgive and forget.

 

[bdubyah]

I think if their plan is "it'll get done when it's done"

That's been their motto for a while now, so if it bothers you that much you likely need to find another game to play. Same with expecting constant updates on progress.

Truly appreciate your decency.

Funny you appreciate decency when your previous post contained a personal attack. 

Since it has released You have never not had a playable version.

Console isn't playable right now? I know saved game are having issues, but you can't play at all?

 

[Riamus]

How do you think that would go over with the public If they admitted to console it will be another 3-4 years before it is finished? 

Considering console timeframe and PC timeframe are the same, this won't be any different for either group.  They have said around 2 years to finish with the roadmap.  For anyone who knows TFP, the expectation is that it will take longer than their initial estimates.  That isn't unusual in game development, though.  You can find many games that were delayed.  And many delays happen before they even give any information about dates to the public.  It's just how it is.  You can make estimates, but you can't know for sure what kinds of bugs will crop up or how long it will take to diagnose those or to fix those.  You can't know if some new feature or mechanic that you haven't worked on before will be easy to add or will end up taking longer because of unforeseen issues with it.  You make the best guess as to a timeframe, but you can't guarantee that things will not get pushed back.

Now... there are certain developers who will put out a release at the "deadline" regardless of quality.  If it's not ready or filled with bugs, they'll still release it because they said that was when it would be released.  I prefer TFP's choice to release it when it's ready, even if there is a delay.  Better to reduce the number of problems before release rather than rush it and have a mess for players to deal with.  That doesn't mean every bug is found or fixed, however.  It just means they try to get things in the best shape possible before release.  That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.  Rushed releases rarely turn out well, for the players or the devs.

 

[zztong]

As an observation, IF they plan to keep making games, they should just stick to PC...you guys will get a better game that is in no way throttled by our console limitations.

Console wouldn't have to hear that once again their hardware really ain't good enough for the devs, but, they gonna hold their nose and push out a console version...eventually.

The history of the console version is foggy to me. As I understand it there was a previous version that some other company was doing and that collapsed and for some legal reasons blocked continued development. I could see where that stunted things. I don't know how many versions of the game TFP put out and how many years passed before TFP could offer a console version again. I suppose they could have continued to develop for the console knowing that they couldn't release anything, but it seems reasonable to me they would just focus on the PC until a path to console support became viable. Maybe it wasn't clear for an extended time that they'd ever be able to release on console for whatever the legal reasons were. And, if so, then a bunch of effort was invested into years of new features without being able to see how things might perform on consoles. I don't know. I'm speculating trying to connect dots that may or may not be fact.

My unfamiliarity with consoles also keeps me from appraising their capabilities. My perception is they're not very powerful compared to a decent gaming PC and owners can't upgrade them. I don't know how often the manufacturers release new versions of the consoles or how many years they promise to support old consoles. The hardware must have been good enough for the Devs to at least give it "the old college try" and spend the money/time/effort. Maybe support for the consoles does hold back things for the PC. I don't really know. I suspect we lost a few textures because of console limitations, but I'm just guessing. For the PC, I think the minimum specs listed for the game are perhaps too low. It technically runs on my aging Mac laptop, but it is unplayable.

If they need a cash infusion they can just turn to their fan boys...they seem willing to forgive and forget.

I've no idea what their finances are, but I look for ways to throw them more cash. I bought a soundtrack a couple of months back. There's a coaster on my desk. I recall buying the game on sale and I've got over 4,000 hours of fun out of it. Accounted for per hour of entertainment, I've paid pennies. They've earned a little more from me. If somebody put on a fan event somewhere, I'd probably go to meet people in person if it fit my schedule. Isn't all that okay? I mean I feel like I've gotten a fair deal, but I can certainly understand if others don't feel that way.

 

[Roland]

As an observation, IF they plan to keep making games, they should just stick to PC...you guys will get a better game that is in no way throttled by our console limitations.

Console wouldn't have to hear that once again their hardware really ain't good enough for the devs, but, they gonna hold their nose and push out a console version...eventually.

I think the better observation would be that WHEN TFP keep making games they plan them from the very start to be multi-platform and develop them with that in mind. 7 Days to Die was not initially planned to be a console game and that shows big time as we look at many of the changes that have been made to get a unified version across platforms. 
 

Despite your perspective, there are many console players who are enjoying the game and who are not experiencing what you have been. For their sake, it might be nice for future projects to come to console. 

 

[firewalker101]

Intermission - Just remember folks, worship the mighty Taco ... Taco Taco Taco...  Yo Querro Taco Bell...

 

[HammerDano]

I think the better observation would be that WHEN TFP keep making games they plan them from the very start to be multi-platform and develop them with that in mind. 7 Days to Die was not initially planned to be a console game and that shows big time as we look at many of the changes that have been made to get a unified version across platforms. 
 

Despite your perspective, there are many console players who are enjoying the game and who are not experiencing what you have been. For their sake, it might be nice for future projects to come to console. 

I know it was not intended to be a console game. BUT, when I say it looked like they needed a cash infusion, to keep working on their "passion project", so they SOLD the console rights...you guys lose your minds defending TFP. This is only the story UP TO Telltales collapse.  And you guys feel free to ignore the part where they sold our/their rights away...didn't protect themselves. 

No No...remember they sold the console version...they had no control over that project anymore...this fact is independent of telltales collapse. 

7 dtd sold the second most copies of any game telltale produced...so TFP got a business lesson on how much they lost out on. Suddenly...they are interested in console game production...not consoles though...they are too restricted for their vision.

When I point out that since 2019 they have been dumbing down the game to get it to fit on console. That Alpha after Alpha they let you fight over BS like idiots, and they were not listening...you again lose it on me. Say even dumber @%$# like "they didn't dumb it down".

To me it looked like they have been stalling for time. Some dumb reskins and another progression rework. Sure they added POI's, but, they are not the hard part are they? Nope...that same interview from 2022, they talked about how far along with bandits they were (not far enough but closer I think is a fair estimate) 

It has been a few years since then...what is the state of bandits now? surely Rick would have said something.

I think both sides have been played by these guys

So when you guys say it will be done when it is done...well that scares me...they still have not figured out how to accomplish their goals...they re-released to consoles without having those features worked out (just their guess that they can). As you keep telling me...this stuff takes time.

Now, I remember that TFP regularly ignore anything that doesn't comport with their vision...they do not speak to the console base. WHY am I supposed to believe it was "public pressure" that forced them to re-release this to console prematurely. Despite the fact TFP knew they should not release anything so feature incomplete and did not plan to...said so publicly.

Pre release: They made it seem as if they were going to get this done SOONER THAN LATER...not at their leisure. They were finally going to shake off their old image. remember that part?

But...they got another cash infusion...according to you PC boys it buys them three or four years of good will?

 

[HammerDano]

Considering console timeframe and PC timeframe are the same, this won't be any different for either group.  They have said around 2 years to finish with the roadmap.  For anyone who knows TFP, the expectation is that it will take longer than their initial estimates.  That isn't unusual in game development, though.  You can find many games that were delayed.  And many delays happen before they even give any information about dates to the public.  It's just how it is.  You can make estimates, but you can't know for sure what kinds of bugs will crop up or how long it will take to diagnose those or to fix those.  You can't know if some new feature or mechanic that you haven't worked on before will be easy to add or will end up taking longer because of unforeseen issues with it.  You make the best guess as to a timeframe, but you can't guarantee that things will not get pushed back.

Now... there are certain developers who will put out a release at the "deadline" regardless of quality.  If it's not ready or filled with bugs, they'll still release it because they said that was when it would be released.  I prefer TFP's choice to release it when it's ready, even if there is a delay.  Better to reduce the number of problems before release rather than rush it and have a mess for players to deal with.  That doesn't mean every bug is found or fixed, however.  It just means they try to get things in the best shape possible before release.  That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.  Rushed releases rarely turn out well, for the players or the devs.

Respectfully, you are speaking from a PC echo chamber. I was warned long before I came to this site, that it was inhabited almost exclusively by fan boys. It is not an unknown to people who know this game.

Yes...both communities are tied together now. too bad console was released prematurely. 

 

[HammerDano]

just had a 5.96 gb update on xbox...no notes with it to tell us what it fixed.

 

[meganoth]

just had a 5.96 gb update on xbox...no notes with it to tell us what it fixed.

What does it say what version it is now? If the version number hasn't changed then there is no fix.

Jugginator posted this 26 minutes ago: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/41377-xbox-x-continue-game-is-greyed-out-and-cannot-be-clicked-on-to-load-and-play/page/9/#findComment-581761 . So they are still trying out solutions, I doubt there would be a fix for your problem, especially since Sony and MS take time to approve any new version

 

[HammerDano]

What does it say what version it is now? If the version number hasn't changed then there is no fix.

Jugginator posted this 26 minutes ago: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/41377-xbox-x-continue-game-is-greyed-out-and-cannot-be-clicked-on-to-load-and-play/page/9/#findComment-581761 . So they are still trying out solutions, I doubt there would be a fix for your problem, especially since Sony and MS take time to approve any new version

it reads V1.2 (b29)

 

[bdubyah]

Respectfully, you are speaking from a PC echo chamber. I was warned long before I came to this site, that it was inhabited almost exclusively by fan boys. It is not an unknown to people who know this game.

Yes...both communities are tied together now. too bad console was released prematurely.

Fan boys, or just people who are aware and understand this game's development? TFP isn't perfect, but at this point to me, they are what they are. I know what to expect from them and they have given us a great game for several years now.

How was console released prematurely? Is the PC version premature to you? Or do you just say that due to the few issues the console version has had? You console guys wanted the game back so bad, but yet you can't have any patience to work through a few teething issues for a developer that, as you've noted at every turn, aren't console developers by trade? Yeah, maybe EA games aren't for you then. Stick to some soulless AAA games or something.