PC Un-craftable wooden bow parts...

[OldManBrian]

I'm sorry that you are having terrible luck. Some times it happens. Sometimes it's better to just roll a new map and a new save.

I actually like this aspect of the game, I prefer being "stuck" without something due to randomness, it adds flavor to each playthrough. Now that being said, in older builds I used modded settings where I had like 4x XP gain, 4x resource and loot gain, 1/4 dmg from zombies, 3x zombie numbers, 3x dmg to zombies, instakill headshots, and 20 min days.

Basically I played at a breakneck speed with lots of weak zombies. So in that case part of the experience was running myself ragged and then starting a new game, so restarts were just part of the game for me.

 

[Gazz]

This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.
I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.

But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.

Yep, that's how the system is set up.

The T1 bow is craftable from basic resources, the T2 and T3 bows require parts.

 

[Roland]

Yep, that's how the system is set up.The T1 bow is craftable from basic resources, the T2 and T3 bows require parts.

They mean T1 vs T2 as in brown quality vs orange quality and not T1 vs T2 as in Primitive Bow vs Wooden Bow

 

[Vapid Actions]

If there's a problem with crafting yourself into lategame, it could also be set up so that T1 (quality tier) don't provide parts on dismantle. So you can still craft a progression into a certain item, but it's going to be a poor version of that item without having "pre-war" if you will, parts to work with.

But I can 100% say, without a shred of a doubt, as much as I love so many other changes in act 18: the excellent sound design changes, the changes to zombie behaviour at night and spawning, the slowed leveling, so many great changes. But this, I detest this choice to its very core. We're not even talking endgame items here, not an M42 machine gun, not a marksman rifle, we're talking about an early game progression item. There's still the compound bow past the wooden bow. I'm sorry, I don't think I can be convinced that RNG should be the only way to play a survival game.

 

[Brian9824]

They mean T1 vs T2 as in brown quality vs orange quality and not T1 vs T2 as in Primitive Bow vs Wooden Bow

Yeah thats what i was thinking, but i see how Gazz was referring to it and that makes sense as well

 

[Gazz]

I refer to the other thing as quality levels because calling both "tiers" gets mighty confusing. =P

 

[Roland]

If there's a problem with crafting yourself into lategame, it could also be set up so that T1 (quality tier) don't provide parts on dismantle. So you can still craft a progression into a certain item, but it's going to be a poor version of that item without having "pre-war" if you will, parts to work with.
But I can 100% say, without a shred of a doubt, as much as I love so many other changes in act 18: the excellent sound design changes, the changes to zombie behaviour at night and spawning, the slowed leveling, so many great changes. But this, I detest this choice to its very core. We're not even talking endgame items here, not an M42 machine gun, not a marksman rifle, we're talking about an early game progression item. There's still the compound bow past the wooden bow. I'm sorry, I don't think I can be convinced that RNG should be the only way to play a survival game.

There have been a few iterations of the game where guns were not craftable at all. Were you this upset about gun crafting when we had parts for assembling? You couldn't craft those parts either.

There was no gun crafting and then molds came in and there was gun crafting then molds were cut and there was gun assembling from looted parts and then the parts were cut and we could craft guns using basic materials (and a schematic that got used up) and now we can craft guns where one component is non-craftable and must be found.

Sounds like the frustration comes from not getting an immediate payoff for spending the point. You wanted to spend the point and then make your better bow and you couldn't because you were missing some recipe items. So what? That should give you purpose. It is like an emergent quest for you and you alone.

Guess what? When you perk into the Workbench you aren't going to immediately be able to make everything on the list. You're going to have to go out and gather mats.

 

[Vapid Actions]

There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding.

I don't care if I cant make a second tier bow for the first 40 days. If that's the way it is, then so be it, that's a progression rate change. My argument is not payoff time, my argument is accessibility. With the system now, it doesn't matter how much time you put into the game. The *only* thing that matters is RNG.

Wasting a perk point? Aggravating, sure, but learn and live. Next time I won't put points into it, I brushed that off in a matter of seconds. The bigger problem is that RNG is the one and only way to progress the game. I could loot every single poi, every single lootable in the game, be level 700, and still theoretically not be able to get past the "primitive bow" in item progression. That's extremely unlikely, but still technically possible, that's RNG.

Did previous crafting system changes make me hate them so much? No. Because they weren't drastic steps back. The crafting system has been finding its footing. It's roll should be as a fail safe, or safety net. If RNG really hates you, crafting should be there. Crafting should be more time consuming, but offer an alternative route. If I go out to brave the world to hunt down a hundred animals for bones, and collect bottles for water to make glue, dismantle a city square's worth the furniture for cloth and combine to make enough duct tape to tide over the most red green of us all, cut down a mountain for the iron, and deforest a continent. I should be able to catch up to the player that clicked on a box and just rolled the die correctly.

If it's really about who's more safe doing what, was the person who found the right box really at greater risk than the person who had to be out in the world gathering all those resources?

I believe it may have been Gazz earlier who mentioned that availability of the parts may be causing more stress on the system than necessary, exaggerating the issue, and hinted that potentially they might need to spawn a bit more frequently. But when I say I hate this to its core, I mean exactly that, no more no less. This is a "core" flaw in that, as I stated earlier, it's possible (however improbable) to depopulate an entire map of all lootables and resources and not be able to progress. It is a hard block with no failsafe.

Lets also not mistaking hating a change with being upset. Saying that I was upset with the system because I wanted instant gratification was more than a little childish Roland. I do not want instant gratification, I want routes available outside of RNG. Which is actually quite close to the definition of the exact opposite: delayed gratification - to be able to work to something over time instead of wanting to just instantly get it.

 

[Roland]

You are making your case on the most outlandishly improbably cases. The complaint I see way more often than this one is that there are a glut of weapons in the world. This doesn't sound like the chance of never finding the weapon parts you need is going to happen-- especially at the brown level. I'm at week one and have two brown wooden bows in my chest already which together is enough parts to craft an orange quality version if I perked into that.

The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

I appreciate what you are saying and understand that you don't want player progression completely dependent upon RNG. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about instant gratification.

I think you're worried about nothing if you really are willing to wait because between looting, questing, and buying from the trader I'm seeing plenty of parts and plenty of extra weapons that could be scrapped for parts.

Also, if you are open to delaying rewards-- delay spending any perk points until after Day 7. The first bloodmoon is pretty tame and you will have an arsenal of weapons and be able to see what you have duplicates of in order to scrap for parts.

 

[vedrit]

-snip-

I think that the RNG fits 7DTD perfectly. Every day is supposed to be uncertain. You may not find food. You may not find parts. You may find a landmine under your foot. Yes, it sucks when RNG rolls against you. Yes, it can be exceptionally aggravating. But that's how it do.

And yes, the person who's out gathering resources -is- safer than the one out exploring and looting. You can plant trees and gardens on the roof of your base or inside a perimeter wall full of turrets and traps. You can find an ore vein and dig tunnels to it, reinforced with steel and yet more turrets. You can gather what you need without really putting yourself in danger. Adventuring to POI's gets increasingly dangerous the further away from your base you go, and as time passes that becomes necessary as everything closer has been picked clean.

I wouldn't say that the system in A18 is a step back. If anything, it's a step forward. Want to know how many times I had an incomplete tool or weapon in previous versions because I was missing that ONE component to complete it? Far too often. Now? There's only one item you have to loot/buy, everything else can be gathered and crafted. Sure, as you've experience that one item can still be frustratingly rare, but I still think it's an improvement.

 

[Brian9824]

You are making your case on the most outlandishly improbably cases. The complaint I see way more often than this one is that there are a glut of weapons in the world. This doesn't sound like the chance of never finding the weapon parts you need is going to happen-- especially at the brown level. I'm at week one and have two brown wooden bows in my chest already which together is enough parts to craft an orange quality version if I perked into that.
The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

I appreciate what you are saying and understand that you don't want player progression completely dependent upon RNG. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about instant gratification.

I think you're worried about nothing if you really are willing to wait because between looting, questing, and buying from the trader I'm seeing plenty of parts and plenty of extra weapons that could be scrapped for parts.

Also, if you are open to delaying rewards-- delay spending any perk points until after Day 7. The first bloodmoon is pretty tame and you will have an arsenal of weapons and be able to see what you have duplicates of in order to scrap for parts.

Even if they did destroy every loot container you could still buy it from the traders. So its really impossible to not get parts. It might take a few days but its a statistical certainty.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that the RNG fits 7DTD perfectly. Every day is supposed to be uncertain. You may not find food. You may not find parts. You may find a landmine under your foot. Yes, it sucks when RNG rolls against you. Yes, it can be exceptionally aggravating. But that's how it do.And yes, the person who's out gathering resources -is- safer than the one out exploring and looting. You can plant trees and gardens on the roof of your base or inside a perimeter wall full of turrets and traps. You can find an ore vein and dig tunnels to it, reinforced with steel and yet more turrets. You can gather what you need without really putting yourself in danger. Adventuring to POI's gets increasingly dangerous the further away from your base you go, and as time passes that becomes necessary as everything closer has been picked clean.

I wouldn't say that the system in A18 is a step back. If anything, it's a step forward. Want to know how many times I had an incomplete tool or weapon in previous versions because I was missing that ONE component to complete it? Far too often. Now? There's only one item you have to loot/buy, everything else can be gathered and crafted. Sure, as you've experience that one item can still be frustratingly rare, but I still think it's an improvement.

Yep, every playthru i do is different becaues of that. What items i find to start, what POI's are near me, etc

 

[Vapid Actions]

You are making your case on the most outlandishly improbably cases. The complaint I see way more often than this one is that there are a glut of weapons in the world. This doesn't sound like the chance of never finding the weapon parts you need is going to happen-- especially at the brown level. I'm at week one and have two brown wooden bows in my chest already which together is enough parts to craft an orange quality version if I perked into that.
The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

I appreciate what you are saying and understand that you don't want player progression completely dependent upon RNG. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about instant gratification.

I think you're worried about nothing if you really are willing to wait because between looting, questing, and buying from the trader I'm seeing plenty of parts and plenty of extra weapons that could be scrapped for parts.

Also, if you are open to delaying rewards-- delay spending any perk points until after Day 7. The first bloodmoon is pretty tame and you will have an arsenal of weapons and be able to see what you have duplicates of in order to scrap for parts.

Apology accepted. I like the idea of holding off on all perks until after day 7. You're right - don't need them to deal with the horde that early anyways. I was contemplating something similar, but I think day 8 is a reasonable frame. I'll probably just spend 3 to get level 2 lucky looter because it's so loot heavy now, then leave it at that until I find something worth running with.

So far in A18, I've only had one playthrough (only so much time in a day), which sadly ended this afternoon on Day 23 after I fell through the floor in a PoI and just couldn't fight through the zombies. However, by day 23, I still hadn't found a wooden bow or any wooden bow parts =p. Trader wasn't really an option. The closest trader was a full day's trip to get to and back with a bicycle: far too much time investment for the off chance.

New world I've spawned immediately next to a city with both a shotgun messiah factory and a shamway factory, with the trader a hop, skip, and jump away (about 20 ingame minutes). So we'll see how the progression system feels with all the loot at my fingertips.

I still don't like that there's no option other than RNG sam-I-am, I do not like it here nor there, I do not like it anywhere. My particularly poor RWG probably exacerbated the problem, but I still believe fully it's a core issue to lock the crafting system to only be able to remake items you've broken down. I think that's fine, or even great for upgrading quality, but I don't agree with the base quality requiring parts.

 

[MrMobius]

The issue here(for me) is not that parts are required, it's that archery doesn't tell you about the additional parts requirement of the wooden bow.

Day 1. Hey archery allows you to make wooden bows! *puts point in* oh wait...

Day 6. Hey I found a t2 wooden bow.

6 days and never used the crafting recipe once. Wasted perk point.

 

[Gazz]

The devs don't have to make design decisions based on the idea that if someone were to destroy every single loot container in the entire world THEN the players would be stuck.

That's not even a theoretical case. =)

Every quest - even if you fail - respawns the POI that you go to.

6 days and never used the crafting recipe once. Wasted perk point.

The bow perk is not a waste if you are using a bow because the recipe unlock is not all it does.

 

[Vapid Actions]

That's not even a theoretical case. =)Every quest - even if you fail - respawns the POI that you go to.

Respawns it, theoretically, still without any wooden bow parts within.

Albeit highly improbable, my last playthrough already proved it's possible to get to day 23 looting poi's almost every day and never get any wooden bow parts. I know it shouldn't be intended for that late, as I've seen several other players get a wooden bow day 1/2 from a lucky box.

 

[Kalarro]

I am all for the change in needing weapon parts again, but the bow should not be included.

For me fireguns should be the "special" thing to use in the game. You should use them in 2 situations: eary/mid game for specific situations or endgame.

The bow on the other side is a basic survival weapon. You should use be able to use it a lot. Im not saying remove the perk parts which you can always chose to pick, but it should be craftable from gathering components, not built from random lootchance parts like fireweapons.

And Im very sorry to hear devs use an argument like: "you also have to find uncraftable rocks, its the same as finding uncraftable weapon parts". That's an argument my GF would use when in rage mode, picking something and taking it totally out of context. Sure, tocks, feathers, ores, and such things are not craftable, but they are gather materials you can find everywhere. You can focus on farming a specific one of them. Weapon parts are lootable items you find by chance. Using that argument just because rocks are not craftable is terrible.

 

[Brian9824]

I am all for the change in needing weapon parts again, but the bow should not be included.
For me fireguns should be the "special" thing to use in the game. You should use them in 2 situations: eary/mid game for specific situations or endgame.

The bow on the other side is a basic survival weapon. You should use be able to use it a lot. Im not saying remove the perk parts which you can always chose to pick, but it should be craftable from gathering components, not built from random lootchance parts like fireweapons.

And Im very sorry to hear devs use an argument like: "you also have to find uncraftable rocks, its the same as finding uncraftable weapon parts". That's an argument my GF would use when in rage mode, picking something and taking it totally out of context. Sure, tocks, feathers, ores, and such things are not craftable, but they are gather materials you can find everywhere. You can focus on farming a specific one of them. Weapon parts are lootable items you find by chance. Using that argument just because rocks are not craftable is terrible.

Except the now is usable a lot. You have the primitive bow which is for early game, the wood bow for mid game, and the compound bow for end game.

So you can already build the bow from gathering components and it can kill normal zombies quite well.

 

[Kalarro]

So you can already build the bow from gathering components and it can kill normal zombies quite well.

If that is the case, awesome. I havent been able to try it out yet, but almost every review I read about it says the new basic bow is useless. If it is not true, then it's fine.

the topic specially worries me bc loot seems to be a bit out of hand. Every video I watch I see players at day 2 or 3 already stocked up on fireguns and ammunition, which IMO should be rare at least until endgame

 

[Khulkhuum]

Stocked up on guns and ammo, which not necessarily is of good quality early game doesn't mean much. I once looted a T1 and T3 iron axe and they have a somewhat huge difference in damage. Imagine between guns, where the base damage is higher, you'll have bigger differences. And yes, Primitive Bow (let's call basic weapon) can be crafted from basic materials, only Wooden Bow (let's call it intermediate) and Compound Bow (let's all it advanced) need materials, each of their own.

I think i know what the gist is of the topic here. In short: OPTIONS

Firstly, i would like to address something that noone really mentioned. I would love to have the option to choose the crafting quality i want to make. For example, i could be able to craft T4 Wooden Bow, but gathered enough for a T3. Now i NEED that bow, so it's better for me to craft a T3 and gathering materials for a T4 would take too much time. Another example, i could be making T2, but prefer to make T1 and leave the rest of the materials for a T3 or T4 later on. I know tiers are supposed to work like "yeah, i know how to do it better", but considering it also needs more materials, it should have an option to choose what tier you want to craft.

Secondly, something for mid to late game. ALTERNATIVES. As much as i like being dependant on RNG, it's always better to have options. I'm pretty sure the trader and looting seems like enough and perhaps this suggestion is something more of an end game. Why not introduce some kind of special workbench, machine or perk that would be able to craft these parts? Considering we are able to craft intricate items as switches, dart traps, various sensors, turrets, doors, hatches and draw bridges, as well many others, there is no sense we are not able to make such small "items" for craft only a handful of weapons.

From technological standpoint, you should be able to craft practically anything, from gameplay standpoint not necessarily. So, second suggestion: Add a way to craft "parts" in some difficult, not easy to obtain way, requiring a couple steps to get/produce or simply introduce a mechanic for "requesting" some materials at a trader. Like, you know you want specifically bow parts and after the shop refreshes it allows you to buy some bow parts, along with low level bows.

 

[ubai]

Allowing people to craft bow parts (or any parts) does not unbalance a game. If the designers do a good job, you don't need kludgy mechanics like magic bow parts that fall from heaven to keep the dirty players from wrecking your "vision".

On reflection, I wish I hadn't posted anything about this, because modding makes the whole thing pointless. One of the greatest things about 7DtD is that it lets you mod out almost anything you don't like or agree with. It's kind of like Fallout 4 in that the base game is kind of a train wreck, but mods turn it into a gem.

If you like the magic random bow parts, more power to you. If you're like me and you think you should be able to craft things in a game where crafting is one of its biggest draws, then mod the game.