PC Un-craftable wooden bow parts...
- Thread starter ubai
- Start date
I would think the wooden bow should be craftable without the generic "bow parts". We have a number of things in the game that are traditionally employed in bowmaking (wood, glue, leather (hide), tallow) and the ancient nature of the bow as a weapon should reflect that. Primitive bows are primitive, yes; but simple bows that are highly effective have been made by man for years without highly specialized prefab parts. The whole point of "parts" as a class of things rather than breaking everything down into it's real-life individual components is to illustrate their exclusive and non-reproducible nature. A modern compound bow is an engineering marvel, but impossible to maintain or build again without the ability to fabricate the parts, which are not found in nature.
Brian9824
Refugee
Well AFAIK wooden bows aren't just made with random wood. The wood has to be treated and prepared ahead of time to handle the tension, the string needs to be just right to provide enough resistance without snapping, etc.
Much like forging you can spend your entire life learning how to make a well functioning bow, not just read a book and craft one.
That's a good point. There is not enough variety or nuance in the game materials to reflect how real world bow construction works. And of course buying "perks" like the player is jacked into the Matrix and can download years of experience in one moment is also extremely game-y. But one must make a concession somewhere to gamifying real-life things to make the game itself fun to play.
You can craft the wooden bow without bow parts.
It's called "Primitive bow" because that's what a bow without fancy parts is; a primitive bow. If you're only using raw wood and grass rope, all you'll ever get will be classified as a primitive bow, no matter how well crafted the wood and rope are. Think of the "bow parts" as all the extra, modern bits like resin, plastic, metal, synthetic string, etc. that go into making...not a primitive bow.
Is it really that hard to see that the point is, you don't expect campfires to need some mysterious other "parts", beyond whatever rocks and wood might be needed?
That, if you've got rocks and wood and time and an axe, you expect to be able to make a camp fire, and going to build one and being told you should have checked whether you'll have to find "camp fire parts" first would be a remarkably offputting surprise?
Vapid Actions
Refugee
So, my problem with this isn't the "realism" or the "expectation", it's the "catch 22". So, I want a better bow, right? I look at my tree, I see a perk to make a better bow, and put a point in it. Well, that doesn't get me a better bow. I have to find a better bow to scrap before I can make that better bow.
Wait... Lets think about that. If I want a T1 wooden bow, I have to find one to scrap into parts in order to craft back into a wooden bow. But... If I find one to scrap into parts, why would I scrap it into parts in order to then rebuild it into what I already had? This makes... no sense at all from a gameplay progression perspective. You could say "well, the bow you can craft is better than the bow you found!". But... It's not. The one I found has random rolls, where one I craft has median rolls. So there's a high likelyhood that I'm actually downgrading the bow stats by doing this. And if it would be an upgrade, there's no way to know since the menu doesn't tell you what the resulting stats would be if you were to craft one.
This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.
I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.
But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.
Wait... Lets think about that. If I want a T1 wooden bow, I have to find one to scrap into parts in order to craft back into a wooden bow. But... If I find one to scrap into parts, why would I scrap it into parts in order to then rebuild it into what I already had? This makes... no sense at all from a gameplay progression perspective. You could say "well, the bow you can craft is better than the bow you found!". But... It's not. The one I found has random rolls, where one I craft has median rolls. So there's a high likelyhood that I'm actually downgrading the bow stats by doing this. And if it would be an upgrade, there's no way to know since the menu doesn't tell you what the resulting stats would be if you were to craft one.
This system makes sense for T2 + items. If you want to make a better version of an item, you take the best parts of previous attempts and re-fabricate them into a better whole.
I think the best solution here is to below "quantity" have a "quality" selector, and only have T2+ items require parts. If you want to farm the mats to make tons of T1 versions of the item to then scrap for parts to make a higher tier version of the item, that should be perfectly acceptable. I mean, that really makes sense - again, taking the best parts of previous attempts to make a better whole.
But to make it so that making an upgrade requires first finding the upgrade thereby nullifying making the upgrade at all is just... wrong.
It's not a catch 22. It's "Find an egg before making an omelet" except that you can later turn that omelet back into an egg (mostly)
Look at it from the game's perspective: Items have a set recipe, independent of the items quality. A level 5 iron pick is just as costly as a level 1 iron pick. So you want to make a level x bow? Neat, that'll require bow parts.
Also, why would "I don't need parts to make the bow, but I get bow parts scrapping it" make any sense? That would mean that you could craft bow parts, which would break the bow from any other advanced weapon in the game. If there is one thing that has been consistently true throughout 7DTD, you only get from scrapping an item what goes into making it.
Brian9824
Refugee
Can't disagree more. Farm some basic ingredients and then turn around and craft a tier 5 bow? It defeats the whole purpose and adds tedium. Parts of the bow exist in the wild, the traders can sell parts, etc. So your assuming the only way to get hte parts is to scrap a functional bow when that's not true.
I mean its pretty simple. There are a ton of new items, if i don't know what I need to make something I check before hand. It's not really complicated.
OldManBrian
Refugee
Nah for balance reasons I like that only T1 items can be crafted without lootable items.
Just personally I've noticed there's a good number of perks that have hidden additional requirements that aren't readily apparent and I think they should clearly list them out for user friendliness.
CannedSmeef
Refugee
The wooden bow parts (and baseball bat parts, surprised no one's mentioned that) are uncraftable for balance reasons. I mean, yes it doesn't make sense that you can't craft the parts yourself, but if you could then the bow/bat would be just a primitive bow with extra steps. The parts are loot/buy only to make finding a whole bow or crafting one yourself far more rewarding. Imagine if you could make marksman rifle parts from scratch, the gun wouldn't be fun to find anymore.
Not everything has to make logical sense. I mean, it doesn't make sense that stun batons don't shock enemies instantly, but if they did they would be stupid broken and everyone would exclusively use them for free stun lock.
Not everything has to make logical sense. I mean, it doesn't make sense that stun batons don't shock enemies instantly, but if they did they would be stupid broken and everyone would exclusively use them for free stun lock.
I wonder if there's some confusion going on.
Is T1 being used to refer to things like stone axe/shovel/spear, primitive bow? Or is it being used to refer to the quality of the item crafted?
If it's being used to refer to stone items, then there's no way they could ever be broken down and used to make the higher "tier" stuff (Iron/steel tools/weapons) because not everything has a stone/primitive equivalent. Pistols? Hunting rifles? AKs? I wouldn't even count the blunderbuss as "primitive' because there are multiple steps required for its use (gunpowder), unlike the bow and arrow.
If T1 is being used to refer to basic, grey quality, then yes, they should require parts and break down into parts, in order to make higher quality items. The logic works universally. Grey primitive bow? Scrap it for wood to make a green primitive bow. Grey wooden bow? Scrap it for parts for a green wooden bow.
Vapid Actions
Refugee
I don't like leaving progression 100% up to the RNG gods. I bring this up specifically because I'm on day 20, using a primitive bow. I have yet to find a single wooden bow, or wooden bow parts. Crafting shouldn't be cheap, but should be an option to be able to progress when RNG's light doesn't shine on you.
Farming those basic ingredients isn't like you just walk out and cut down a couple trees and are able to make thousands of wood bows. You still need to loot enough glue, duct tape, iron, etc.
To say "You get to progress because RNG shined on you, but you, you can never progress no matter how much time and work you put in until RNG decides to throw you some scraps" isn't how progression should work. Parts should be balanced. A T1 bow could be made without parts. A T2 bow requires parts from 10 bows. A T5 bow would require parts from 100 bows. Why shouldn't you be able to sit down and make a T5 bow if you've farmed hundreds of duct tape, forged iron bars, and thousands of other raw resources; When someone else can just click on a car and get one in 10 seconds?
Farming those basic ingredients isn't like you just walk out and cut down a couple trees and are able to make thousands of wood bows. You still need to loot enough glue, duct tape, iron, etc.
To say "You get to progress because RNG shined on you, but you, you can never progress no matter how much time and work you put in until RNG decides to throw you some scraps" isn't how progression should work. Parts should be balanced. A T1 bow could be made without parts. A T2 bow requires parts from 10 bows. A T5 bow would require parts from 100 bows. Why shouldn't you be able to sit down and make a T5 bow if you've farmed hundreds of duct tape, forged iron bars, and thousands of other raw resources; When someone else can just click on a car and get one in 10 seconds?
OldManBrian
Refugee
Maybe I got me tiers mixed up, but by T1 I mean the starting stuff. (Primitive bow, stone axe, stone spear, etc)
As far as hidden requirements, yeah there are a few perks with them. New users don't realize that they're not actually going to be able to craft something they're "unlocking" with a perk point unless they're lucky and find an additional required item.
Bicycle Mechanic is another example of this that I've read about (but haven't tried due to my low level.) From what I've read other people warning, a number of these perks that say they allow you to craft the "parts" for the thing they're unlocking, only allow you to craft some of the "parts" while requiring you to find an additional one to actually craft it.
EDIT:
I'm not saying I want the mechanics changed, I'm just saying I'd like the descriptions changed. Technically I think most people would prefer not to unlock many of these perks until they find the required items and are ready to craft them. It would help if they didn't have to go leave the perk screen and hunt down the recipes to figure all that out. (Which won't occur to most starting players.)
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Because if you could reach end-game items just by grinding out the crafting (as it used to be) is OP and no one would bother searching for weapons or weapon parts. They'd grind out the gear, and any they found was scrapped/recycled/sold because it was inferior.
7 Days To Die is the apocalypse. There's a lot that simply cannot be made by human hands anymore because the parts are too small, or the metal is too tough, or the design too complex. There's no machining table, no CNC routers, no CAD. You have to work with what you find.
Vapid Actions
Refugee
This has already been addressed with the RNG system for item stats. What you can craft can never compete with what you can find. Looting is now the be all end all. Not to mention recipies and magazines to push looting as a primary activity. I'm at risk of losing my game not because of the choices i'm making, not because of my planning, not because of mistakes, but because the game is outpacing me due to RNG not shining on me. That's not how progression as a mechanic should work. Talking gameplay design not "mah realizm".
There is no reason whatsoever to make looting the one and only way to play the game, making the crafting system almost completely useless. The crafting system right now is useful for wooden frames, your first starting tools, and *maybe* workbenches. Beyond that first three hours of gameplay, crafting really does nothing for you, since it only allows you to make worse versions of what you find by first finding that thing.
I understand making looting more important. But I feel like this is a real blizzard style balancing move. Fifteen people come up with ways to give it more power, and instead of picking the balanced option, they just apply all of them. RNG stat generation for lategame, and books early game already push looting ahead. To completely disable all other options is a step too far.
Kosmic Kerman
Refugee
I found two wooden bows by about day 6 without doing a whole lot of looting. I’m pretty sure MM’s intention is to introduce variability in each game based on what you find and what you perk into. The ability to craft T2 weapons like the wooden bow removes part of this variability and would seem to go against the basic game-design. If you like to always play with a bow and really can’t stand the primitive bow you can make changes to the xml to increase the damage of the primitive bow or change the recipe for the T2 wooden bow.
Except that's a bold-faced lie. For one, looting top-quality items is exceptionally rare, vs crafting. Plus, You're just as likely to get garbage rolls on looted weapons as you are to find superb. Crafting is always constant. Sure, it may not *always* be better, but you can't win them all.
Also consider that looting has always been pushed by the devs. They do NOT want you to sit inside your fortress and ignore zombies. They do NOT want you to ever be safe.
I'm sorry that you are having terrible luck. Some times it happens. Sometimes it's better to just roll a new map and a new save.