PC Traders should be open all night

[BFT2020]

I made some changes to the trader times and loving it.  Day 1 slowly make my time into town and reach the trader at 1600 hours only for him to close shop (I set Hugh to be 0400 to 1600.  If I had found Jen instead, she would have still been open as her hours are 0800 to 2000.   It does make a difference in how you manage your time since they open/close at different times and not opened as long.

Why was this added other than to add controversy and show you support censorship? GTFOH with that B.S. please.

Asking people not to promote hatred is not censorship, it’s called decency.

 

[ricp]

When you say they are unbalance...

All of it, to be honest. The only "positive" from my viewpoint is that they don't have working benches, forges, and the like, and neither does the wilder world. A significant improvement for me. The traders throughout the game, both early and late, are massively OP in the current alpha.

Why was this added other than to add controversy and show you support censorship? GTFOH with that B.S. please.

I presume you have not actually listened to any Crowder then? The man is a straight up bigot and is unapologetic about that. You might be comfortable with that, and consider telling people who are racist not to be racist as some sort of censorship, many people are not and would consider your response nothing but enablement. If you have listened to any of this content, then it should be clear that there is no debate to be had here, it's a binary issue, not open to interpretation. He really is that explicit.

 

[astynax777]

All of it, to be honest. The only "positive" from my viewpoint is that they don't have working benches, forges, and the like, and neither does the wilder world. A significant improvement for me. The traders throughout the game, both early and late, are massively OP in the current alpha.

What exactly makes them OP then?  Should they not sell anything but components?  Maybe they should have a chance to have one fully-built item?  I could go many weeks in game not being able to find the schematic I need in bookshelves/boxes if I'm not going intellect build.  The traders are a nice balance for that IMO.

I presume you have not actually listened to any Crowder then? The man is a straight up bigot and is unapologetic about that. You might be comfortable with that, and consider telling people who are racist not to be racist as some sort of censorship, many people are not and would consider your response nothing but enablement. If you have listened to any of this content, then it should be clear that there is no debate to be had here, it's a binary issue, not open to interpretation. He really is that explicit.

I have in the past but haven't for a while, but I assume you and I would have different definitions what what "racist" actually means.  But again - I'm not here to argue about this with you. This is a zombie survival game forum.  Stay on topic and keep that b.s. outta here.

 

[Krougal]

I made some changes to the trader times and loving it.  Day 1 slowly make my time into town and reach the trader at 1600 hours only for him to close shop (I set Hugh to be 0400 to 1600.  If I had found Jen instead, she would have still been open as her hours are 0800 to 2000.   It does make a difference in how you manage your time since they open/close at different times and not opened as long.

Asking people not to promote hatred is not censorship, it’s called decency.

No, it's censorship. Freedom of speech counts most when it is applied to people you disagree with. I understand many of you here are non-Americans and don't value Freedom of Speech. Hell many Americans no longer value it. They will when it's completely gone though.

All of it, to be honest. The only "positive" from my viewpoint is that they don't have working benches, forges, and the like, and neither does the wilder world. A significant improvement for me. The traders throughout the game, both early and late, are massively OP in the current alpha.

I presume you have not actually listened to any Crowder then? The man is a straight up bigot and is unapologetic about that. You might be comfortable with that, and consider telling people who are racist not to be racist as some sort of censorship, many people are not and would consider your response nothing but enablement. If you have listened to any of this content, then it should be clear that there is no debate to be had here, it's a binary issue, not open to interpretation. He really is that explicit.

For one thing I had no idea who this guy is other than a stupid meme. I honestly still don't know or care who he is and I've seen this meme plenty of times.

Certainly not enough to go listen to him. Considering the ridiculous things that are called racist these days, it is not a binary non-debatable issue, and as far as I know you are just some guy on the internet virtue-signaling.

What exactly makes them OP then?  Should they not sell anything but components?  Maybe they should have a chance to have one fully-built item?  I could go many weeks in game not being able to find the schematic I need in bookshelves/boxes if I'm not going intellect build.  The traders are a nice balance for that IMO.

I have in the past but haven't for a while, but I assume you and I would have different definitions what what "racist" actually means.  But again - I'm not here to argue about this with you. This is a zombie survival game forum.  Stay on topic and keep that b.s. outta here.

Too true.

 

[ricp]

...but I assume you and I would have different definitions what what "racist" actually means. 

It would seem so, you are using a subjective and anecdotal assumption of what it should be while I take guidance from the well known tenets defining what is and isn't racist, expanded in detail over centuries by those who have studied this subject in depth, and done so by people with far far greater understanding and experience than either you or I.

So, yes, you are right, we do have "different definitions" however the idea you think that people suggesting we shouldn't promote racists is somehow "b.s." suggests far more about your interpretation than mine.

Considering the ridiculous things that are called racist these days, it is not a binary non-debatable issue, and as far as I know you are just some guy on the internet virtue-signaling.

So just to be correct, you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject and have made no attempts to find out, but you are absolutely certain I am somehow chastising someone wrongly? As I pointed out above, this isn't a subjective call or anecdotal evidence, this is scientifically presented, peer reviewed and overwhelmingly accepted actions identified as being racist.

The reason I mentioned him was the meme is based around him, it is time we stopped indirectly promoting a racist. It really is as simple as that and if you think that is virtue-signaling, despite you admitting your ignorance on the subject, then perhaps you should ponder on your justification for thinking that.

These will be my final words on the matter. If you think Crowder is not racist then it's quite simple, you are wrong and wrong in the full technical academic sense, not just because I think you are wrong. However I will not continue to debate the subject, as the point I am making is very clear and doesn't need either repeating or emphasised.

 

[Krougal]

It would seem so, you are using a subjective and anecdotal assumption of what it should be while I take guidance from the well known tenets defining what is and isn't racist, expanded in detail over centuries by those who have studied this subject in depth, and done so by people with far far greater understanding and experience than either you or I.

So, yes, you are right, we do have "different definitions" however the idea you think that people suggesting we shouldn't promote racists is somehow "b.s." suggests far more about your interpretation than mine.

So just to be correct, you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject and have made no attempts to find out, but you are absolutely certain I am somehow chastising someone wrongly? As I pointed out above, this isn't a subjective call or anecdotal evidence, this is scientifically presented, peer reviewed and overwhelmingly accepted actions identified as being racist.

The reason I mentioned him was the meme is based around him, it is time we stopped indirectly promoting a racist. It really is as simple as that and if you think that is virtue-signaling, despite you admitting your ignorance on the subject, then perhaps you should ponder on your justification for thinking that.

These will be my final words on the matter. If you think Crowder is not racist then it's quite simple, you are wrong and wrong in the full technical academic sense, not just because I think you are wrong. However I will not continue to debate the subject, as the point I am making is very clear and doesn't need either repeating or emphasised.

My aren't we smug. You must be a young person to speak with such authority on social issues.

You're not getting the point, I simply don't care. I don't care who the guy is or what his beliefs are.

The guy is a meme to me and that is all he will ever be. Nothing more, nothing less. His impact on my life is nil.

He isn't even a very good meme, he doesn't merit a laugh or even a smile when I see him.

According to you I should either waste my time researching someone who I don't care about OR take your expert opinion and judge him guilty and ban him. Either way though you are the one drawing attention to him and indirectly promoting him, because otherwise nobody would have taken any notice and we wouldn't be discussing this guy who outside of being a half-assed meme is likely a nobody.

I bet you buy into all the Marxist bull@%$# being pushed right now too.

 

[astynax777]

It would seem so, you are using a subjective and anecdotal assumption of what it should be while I take guidance from the well known tenets defining what is and isn't racist, expanded in detail over centuries by those who have studied this subject in depth, and done so by people with far far greater understanding and experience than either you or I.

So, yes, you are right, we do have "different definitions" however the idea you think that people suggesting we shouldn't promote racists is somehow "b.s." suggests far more about your interpretation than mine.

I never said what definition I subscribe to so how the hell would you know?  The B.S. I was referring to was bringing political controversy to this forum which it appears you just can't let go of and have to keep pushing.  GTFOH with that B.S.

 

[ricp]

Deary me people, what a mess those two answers are. Nobody bothered with my factual comment until you two decided get offended by it, but the bottom line is I've said my piece, and I do not feel the need to explain any further. Anyone not getting it, is intentionally not getting it and that's just something they need to reconcile with themselves, not me.

:

:

Moving on, and as for the topic, the traders are OP just now because in literally 2 days I can have a stack of dukes, a bicycle and have my game stage increased massively compared to previous alphas. This is down to traders. I like that the quests are not miles away now, that is a positive, but the flip side is that you can grind them much easier. With the (seemingly) permanent addition of a bike when you complete a handful of jobs in tier 1, it makes grinding even easier.

The removal of the working benches in game (and obvs in traders) is positive, it just seemed contradictory that you were meant to be aiming for a workbench, chem bench, forge and cement mixer, yet on day one you could rock up to a trader that has all of them working. That, imo, is the sort of RNG that "ruins" a playthrough.

I don't think traders should be removed, I quite like them and the quests "give you something to do" rather than just sequentially looting across the map, and I like that they've given their bases and the quests a bit of love. I am sure that TFP will try and use them to drive the storyline (if one ever gets included) so I can't see them ever not being in the game.

I appreciate that we all suffer from observation bias, and I am just as guilty of that, so perhaps I just have to accept that traders are OP because it balances out the game for those who are less experienced or less competent.

 

[astynax777]

Deary me people, what a mess those two answers are. Nobody bothered with my factual comment until you two decided get offended by it, but the bottom line is I've said my piece, and I do not feel the need to explain any further. Anyone not getting it, is intentionally not getting it and that's just something they need to reconcile with themselves, not me.

I appreciate that we all suffer from observation bias, and I am just as guilty of that, so perhaps I just have to accept that traders are OP because it balances out the game for those who are less experienced or less competent.

Dude... I just can't even any more.  Such pompous elitism.

 

[ricp]

Dude... I just can't even any more.  Such pompous elitism.

So don't say anything then, it's clear we disagree, and your assumption that I am either pompous or elitist for calling out racism is again something you'll need to deal with yourself.

Instead, discuss the topic you wanted to. I've provided more detail on the affect A20 trader changes make on character progression. As an experienced player, and I presume you are one too, it's quite noticeable, but I feel it's more accidental than intentional. I don't think TFP realised how easy it would be to grind out the quests when the distances were reduced, and I think the addition of the bike after tier 1 was more a nod to those who were maybe struggling a bit at the start. Those two things, while not "bad" additions to the game, have come together to have a bigger influence than maybe expected.

On the flip side, we can turn on Feral Sense which, while not nerfing the trader progression, will slow progression simply due to the number of bodies thrown at you.

 

[Mahnogard]

On the flip side, we can turn on Feral Sense which, while not nerfing the trader progression, will slow progression simply due to the number of bodies thrown at you.

I can attest to the fact that Feral Sense turns a quick jaunt to the Laundromat for questy goodness into a Pied-Piperesque exercise in zombie collection with me repairing my noob club three times before even getting where I'm going. But it was fun jogging down the street singing, "Come on zombies, follow me! I'm the zombie piper, follow me, I'm the zombie piper, and I'll beat you in the head..."

(Don't look at me like that. Don't tell me that none of you sing to the zombies.)

 

[ricp]

I can attest to the fact that Feral Sense turns a quick jaunt to the Laundromat for questy goodness into a Pied-Piperesque exercise in zombie collection with me repairing my noob club three times before even getting where I'm going. But it was fun jogging down the street singing, "Come on zombies, follow me! I'm the zombie piper, follow me, I'm the zombie piper, and I'll beat you in the head..."

(Don't look at me like that. Don't tell me that none of you sing to the zombies.)

Yeah, it's definitely a good addition for more experienced players, it perhaps needs a little balancing in the first day or two simply to stop you battling against hordes when you are weak with poor weapons, but far from "undoable".

As for singing? Got to admit I'm more the sweary kind than the siren type.

 

[RyanX]

Completely unrelated, and no dig at Kage, I'd really like to see the "change my mind" meme removed from the meme library purely because the "joke" is Crowder is a racist piece of s**t (happy to show examples) and he never changes his mind about it.

That's purely an opinion.  I don't think he is racist at all, but talks about uncomfortable subjects many don't like to hear.  Thus one has to use racism as an excuse to make someone go away (i.e. censor) so one doesn't have to feel "uncomfortable" or feel that their "safe space" has been invaded.

In regards to the OP:

It would be unrealistic to have a trader open 24 hours, I mean the shop owner has to sleep some time!  Heck, even now it's strange that they are open for 14-16 hours a day 7 days a week.  I suppose if they live there they could do some extended hours.  Or maybe have another employee that runs it for half the day.

I like the idea of random times, maybe even a 24 hour trader here and there...but they all close down for Blood Moon.

 

[astynax777]

So don't say anything then, it's clear we disagree, and your assumption that I am either pompous or elitist for calling out racism is again something you'll need to deal with yourself.

Cool.  I won't say anything... so long as you don't come in here and inject your politics into things, act like your view is the unarguable truth, denigrate people by saying if they disagree with your views on the trader then they must be "less experienced or less competent", and tell everyone that if they disagree with your absolute truths that they are the ones who have the problem.  If you never diverted from the topic this wouldn't have happened.  Live and learn.

I've provided more detail on the affect A20 trader changes make on character progression. As an experienced player, and I presume you are one too, it's quite noticeable, but I feel it's more accidental than intentional. I don't think TFP realised how easy it would be to grind out the quests when the distances were reduced, and I think the addition of the bike after tier 1 was more a nod to those who were maybe struggling a bit at the start. Those two things, while not "bad" additions to the game, have come together to have a bigger influence than maybe expected.

On the flip side, we can turn on Feral Sense which, while not nerfing the trader progression, will slow progression simply due to the number of bodies thrown at you.

I agree with you that it's pretty darn easy to get dukes now with the new questing rewards and trader location.  For Kage - it's pretty nice that he doesn't have a lot of traveling time for his videos and streams.  I think that's where this whole thing is coming from - he doesn't want to waste a lot of time traveling or stuck inside at night (especially early game where the risk/reward is not worth it).  If you look at his last stream - it was pretty awesome with the trader open at night as it created an incentive to keep questing during the night which lead to some pretty epic scenarios (encountering a wandering horde in the city all running at them with some funny deaths).  He was also able to get a bike early on so that he didn't have to spend like 20 minutes running to the trader in the next down.  Sure, we're not all streamers, but I for one can appreciate the timesavers that the trader brings to the game if I choose to play that way - and I think that's what it's all about.  I don't think TFP should force people to play the game a certain way and have to struggle with boring/long walks/nights.  The more options they can give so people can play the game the way they want - the better IMO.

It would be unrealistic to have a trader open 24 hours, I mean the shop owner has to sleep some time!  Heck, even now it's strange that they are open for 14-16 hours a day 7 days a week.  I suppose if they live there they could do some extended hours.  Or maybe have another employee that runs it for half the day.

I like the idea of random times, maybe even a 24 hour trader here and there...but they all close down for Blood Moon.

Haha I like how we talk about realism in a game with zombies that can break through steel with just their hands and that gives you the ability to craft a 4x4 vehicle by using just a workbench.    So would you like the ability to customize the trader's hours?  I.E. allow 24-7 or make it random?  I'm all for that.

 

[ricp]

@RyanX @astynax777

I said I was finished discussing the subject, however I really need to make something clear to both of you. This isn't an argument of "your" interpretation of racism and "my" interpretation of racism. This is about taking the tenets of racism, highlighted by decades of experts working in the field, and holding them up against Crowder's output. In that sense he is a racist. It really is as simple as that. The analogy here is someone saying, for example, "a car is not a car" despite all the experts going, "nope, that's definitely a car". Trying to spin it as some over-arching political agenda is asinine, and a tactic oft used when those they like, or admire, fail to adhere to common decency standards. Be very aware that I am not calling either of you racists. I don't know you, I have no context of your life, so I am in no position to make any judgement about your intentions, nor you mine.

Bottom line, if I was to post "contentious" Crowder quotes on here, those quotes would be either removed or I would be banned as a member, and rightly so. I think that tells you all you need to know.

If you wish to continue this discussion in DMs, then no problem. There is no personal element here, and I do not believe I have in any way been rude or insulting during this exchange and would like to continue in that vein.

--- anyway, back to the topic...

I like the idea of random times, maybe even a 24 hour trader here and there...but they all close down for Blood Moon.

Closed for Blood Moon would be a nice touch, and I can imagine a playthrough with people who are bad at planning getting absolutely stung by not checking the days. I noticed when I went to Joel recently, he told me there was a Blood Moon coming, albeit he was 2 days early but I suppose technically he's not wrong, so it fits in with the lore. He could just "pack up for the day" knowing the horde was due.

Now at this point I'd like to add in that, for me, I dislike the protection the trader bases have. It's like nothing else in the game and stands out as an anomaly while hinting at a "solution to a problem" (ie: zombies destroying the trader) when a more elegant solution could be found. In some mods the traders can be broken (and built upon) with guards taking the place of indestructibility. Those guards are, in general, hilariously bad. However replacing them with, for example turrets and building the traders as near zombie proof, in the same way we do so for our own bases, perhaps with traps to kill of any stragglers that somehow manage to work their way in would seem more fitting. I get how important traders are now, and TFP doesn't want them destroyed in game, but they really should fit in with the meta of the game, ie: everything is destructible.

I agree with you that it's pretty darn easy to get dukes now with the new questing rewards and trader location.  For Kage - it's pretty nice that he doesn't have a lot of traveling time for his videos and streams.  I think that's where this whole thing is coming from - he doesn't want to waste a lot of time traveling or stuck inside at night (especially early game where the risk/reward is not worth it).  If you look at his last stream - it was pretty awesome with the trader open at night as it created an incentive to keep questing during the night which lead to some pretty epic scenarios (encountering a wandering horde in the city all running at them with some funny deaths).  He was also able to get a bike early on so that he didn't have to spend like 20 minutes running to the trader in the next down.  Sure, we're not all streamers, but I for one can appreciate the timesavers that the trader brings to the game if I choose to play that way - and I think that's what it's all about.  I don't think TFP should force people to play the game a certain way and have to struggle with boring/long walks/nights.  The more options they can give so people can play the game the way they want - the better IMO.

It's all balancing I suppose, although imo the very last people TFP should be designing the game for are streamers. They are not your typical gamer and do not follow typical gamer loops.

Of the the two changes made (closer quests, early bike) they seemed to have combined inside an already much easier alpha to make the progression far quicker. In A20 I no longer farm, because it's badly nerfed and the traders have tons of cheap crops, nor do I mine, because of the changes to the building system (much less iron needed) and the sheer amount of "above ground" resources. The game has definitely changed, and I'll be totally honest with you, I'm not sure all of it is for the better. Again, balancing is the key here, and I'm not someone who will drop the game because they introduce mechanics I don't like - you just adapt your play style, right?

 

[meganoth]

As moderator I have to say you all have a hard time dropping a specific subject that is against forum rules. I will help you with that: The next one even glancing sidewises in that direction will get a warning, his post deleted anyway and this thread will be locked.