Personally, I had no problems with A16.4 style degradation, but that was much more granular with items had 600 quality levels instead of 6, and it could be repaired. The degradation I've seen mentioned lately would be awful, as I'd end up going through picks at a ferocious rate (I normally have to repair my pick 2-3 times a night.)
PC Traders and quests need to be nerfed
- Thread starter aamatniekss
- Start date
theFlu
Well-known member
Yeah, no, sorry. Already have an active warning point, don't need an A3-violation on top of that.
One thing I haven't pointed out about the original one-liner that spawned this page of diversion is this: I (also) kinda posted it to show some respect for BFT's modding efforts, as I had snarked at him earlier... but the well meaning quip has now been completely neutered, so: Kudos for yer efforts @BFT2020!
With that, I'm bowing out of that derailment; if you actually want me to reply to something about that, mega or anyone, drop me a DM.
Rince
New member
I hope that they do not speed up crafting too much, I'm loving the slow pace.Even then players would want some of their equipment to fight bandits to come from looting or crafting and not all from the trader. The solution can be to reign in the trader OR to speed up looting and crafting.
But we haven't even reached the "you said this 5 posts earlier" phase !!!
I don't even care if I don't find almost, except scrap armor and iron tools, until day 70.
FramFramson
Well-known member
I don't have much to add other than I like the idea of requiring a few more quests before you unlock the next tier of quests, just to space it out a bit more.
Regardless of the solution in the end, the trader reward problem seems like a balance issue which can be resolved through simple numeric value changes, rather than any wholesale change to gameplay.
Regardless of the solution in the end, the trader reward problem seems like a balance issue which can be resolved through simple numeric value changes, rather than any wholesale change to gameplay.
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EvilPolygons
Active member
The mod I'm using gives a 50% chance of degradation per repair, so averaged out it feels pretty well balanced. It takes quite a while for a QL6 item to wear down to a QL1. The important thing is that stuff does eventually wear down, which means crafting (and looting, for that matter) always stays relevant even in the late game.
RipClaw
Well-known member
On average, you'll have 10 repairs for a Q6 item you can't craft, or 8 repairs for a Q5 item you can craft if you've read enough magazines. This is not a lot, especially for items like a shovel, pickaxe or wrench. I repair these items quite often because I actually use them.
Crafting stays relevant for me in the late game even without item degradation. I primarily craft large quantities of steel, concrete, gunpowder, ammunition, and glue. And I'm not a fan of looting. I do it because I have to do it and I also get resources that I need for the crafting but that's it.
If I can squeeze 100-200 repairs out of an Q6 item before it is gone then we can talk but not with only 10 and only if you don't have the bad luck to lose a quality level with every repair.
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theFlu
Well-known member
100 repairs.. my gut feeling of a full 15 minute night of mining is about 2 repairs for a full Q6..? 50 nights, that would be 50/4 hours, so 12 hours of continued use. I'm not dissing if that's what you're doing, I like a good molerat session, but that still quite a bit, no?
RipClaw
Well-known member
It depends on how you look at it. A total of 100 repairs for a Q6 before it is no longer repairable sounds like a lot, but you have to bear in mind that every time the quality level is reduced, the durability is reduced as well and the number of repairs will increase. It is not a linear progression.
It also depends on what other effects the loss of quality level has. If you also lose damage or mod slots, you might want to recraft the item rather sooner than later. Very few people will use an item until it is beyond repair.
For example, I can currently break rock, coal, nitrate, and oil shale blocks in one hit with my Q5 steel pickaxe. I would replace the pickaxe as soon as I need two or more hits to break these blocks, as I wouldn't want to lose this feature.
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theFlu
Well-known member
Ye, I was actually just editing that part in, but I'll go for a reply. Linear degradation of durability would turn my 'constant rate' -guess into a triangle, halfing the time; so 6ish hours total. (given my 7.5 mins / repair is close enough)
And for functional reasons, the two swing cut-off would be my pain point too. Optimally I'd want the two-swing vs one-shot speed change in itself fixed somehow, but can't assume we'll get a good one of those.. it doesn't seem to have a good solution.
In your case you'd just have a workbench pushing out new ones as fast as you're destroying them anyway, in-so-far as it wouldn't be limited by looting. Gathering 4-5 new parts even for every ~two hours of game time could get a little tiresome.
Correct. Because of this an item does not need to get unrepairable. It would suffice if any weapon degrades to quality1 and stays there endlessly repairable. It could even keep its mod slots, the damage reduction would usually push players to replace the item when the gain is big enough.
Speaking about your case, we know you have a play style that isn't normal and the balance for normal players would probably be perfectly fine with 10, maybe 15 repairs (exact amount determined by playtesting). You would have to take every chance to buy steel tool parts at the trader and if the worst comes to pass you would momentarily have to downgrade to iron tools or stay with quality 1 steel (if those don't break like suggested) for a time. The game isn't there to provide a carefree existence and relaxed athmosphere to anyone.
I proposed a solution: Have a rather big random variation on the damage of every hit. That means the closer you are to one-hitting, the more often you would actually one-hit a block. Disadvantage, even if you one-hit you could need 2 hits for some blocks, I'm sure there are people who hate that as it breaks their "trance". But the major advantage is that every bit of damage helps, even if you are above one-hitting you would welcome any further damage upgrade as it diminishes the chance for two-hitting.
theFlu
Well-known member
I don't even mine that much, but I'd rather not be guessing the whole time. I'd probably trade ever being able to one-shot anything to having it be constant...
RipClaw
Well-known member
My playstyle is as normal as everyone else's. Everyone says their playstyle is normal. So "normal" is meaningless in this context.
I think when you have to repair your primary weapon multiple times over the course of a horde night then 10-15 repairs from Q6 to broken are not really that much. Or did you mean 10-15 repairs per quality level ?
I played the Undead Legacy mod in A20 where you either had to use extremely expensive repair kits or repair the items in the maintenance station. If you did not have the necessary level of the maintenance station you had to repair the weapon at the trader for money. I always had several weapons during the horde night that I used until they were broken and then I switched to the next one. This is probably the strategy players would use if item degradation were added to the game. They would then have several identical or similar weapons. I doubt anyone would want to risk the weapon dropping a quality level on horde night and possibly losing a mod slot or the weapon becoming completely unrepairable.
But what would definitely happen is that someone would mod out the item degradation. In every game that had item degradation, there were either strategies to get around it or a mod to remove it from the game.
EvilPolygons
Active member
I've been playing with item degradation for awhile now. It really just isn't as extreme as you're making it out to be. Without it, once you have all top-quality gear, there's basically nothing left to look forward to. I mean, how many QL6 guns do you really need when the ones you have will last forever? At a certain point, even the absolute best loot drops eventually end up being vendor trash when the stuff you have never wears out. It's the endgame wall I mentioned earlier.
That's all a bit off topic, though. Back to the trader issue, in my experience so far, item degradation definitely helps to reduce the feeling that trader quest rewards are always ahead of your crafting level. The rewards are fun now because I know they won't last forever and I'm not left feeling like crafting is pointless in comparison. Admittedly I was reluctant to try it initially (because I usually don't like losing my stuff in games) but I'm glad I did. Definitely in my list of must-have mods from now on. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that you should enjoy this particular game mechanic. But it works for me.
By the way, to just clear something up -- this particular mod doesn't degrade items to point of being totally irreparable. Once an item degrades to QL1, it can still be repaired endlessly. It's just stuck at QL1 from that point on. So you're never left completely without a tool or weapon in a bad situation (assuming you have a repair kit).
RipClaw
Well-known member
Sure, if the gear is all that matters to you in the game. The way I see it, once I have the gear I need, I have more time to spend testing new ideas and building bases.
In case you haven't noticed, I'm more into mining and building than looting. So the idea of an endless loot run is not very appealing to me.
BFT2020
Well-known member
Riamus
Well-known member
I would hate to have item degradation added to this game in any form. It doesn't offer me anything other than the pain of having to constantly replace things and that isn't what I'd consider fun. Yes, you reach the best equipment in this game. That really isn't a bad thing. As RipClaw said, this gives you more time to focus on other things. My game changes as I progress. I start out doing a lot of questing and after I have resources and good equipment, I start questing less often and focus on other parts of the game like building. I already don't really care for the early game and prefer to get past that quickly and move on to the rest of the game where I can actually do something besides only going out killing stuff and looting. I like doing that but I also like being able to build interesting bases and such and that isn't easy until you have a reliable and fast source of lots of resources. If I have to always go out scavenging no matter what point in the game I am in just to get enough parts to constantly replace equipment, I'd have to either mod the game or stop playing it because it would put so much limitation on what my choices are in the game. I'd have to be looting too often just to keep up with broken tools. Weapons wouldn't break as quickly once I move away from lots of questing but even for them, I wouldn't want item degradation. I think that's something fine in a mod but not in vanilla.
With "Normal" in this context I meant that the person is doing enough looting to be able to replace his tools once in a while. And I meant the person has a resource demand that does not need him to mine every night of the week. Probably that is the normal player TFP is targeting with their balancing.
Possibly. If it were 20 repairs or more I wouldn#t be surprised. At the moment repairs are easy enough that I don't register them and can't say how many times I have to repair a weapon in a horde night or a tool in a night of mining. All up for playtesting. The only thing I am almost sure about is that 100 seems a number where nobody could tell the difference between having degradation and having no degradation.
If playtesting shows that many players get into trouble getting enough parts because they replace their degrading weapon much earlier than expected then durability in the higher qualities could be increased, or the availability of parts increased, or higher qualities could have less chance to degrade a step and lower qualities a higher chance. All part of the balancing.
You could put this sentence under almost any change TFP has ever made. May I remind you that there have even been mods to bring back sticks. And I don't know if a crafting grid mod exists, but a few days ago someone bitterly lamented the removal of that. I would even say it is an argument FOR adding degradation because there will surely be a mod for everyone who can't stand it.
I don't even mine that much, but I'd rather not be guessing the whole time. I'd probably trade ever being able to one-shot anything to having it be constant...
My gut feeling is I would not mind this uncertainty, but like you I am not sure. So I would expect both of us to try it out before reaching a final opinion
.I mean, wouldn't it be nice to actually have an advantage if you should find a shovel 3 qualities higher? Instead of like it is now where there are about 2-3 shovel qualities (over all tiers) that make a difference and everything inbetween doesn't matter at all?
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RipClaw
Well-known member
And there is already a mod for those who want to have it. Unless there is a huge run on this mod, I assume that the desire for item degradation among the player base is not that big.
BFT2020
Well-known member
meganoth said:I assume BFT has fun modding, so naturally he spends a lot of time modding. And he may have modded for a 1000 hours, but surely not all of that on one issue like making weapons unrepairable, give him some credit please
No, I am actually chained up to a chair and there is this big burly guy with a livestock prodder behind me motivating me to keep working on mods. These posts are them being "nice" to me and giving me breaks
I was about to say 1000 hours seems too much, then realized once you take into things like creating and testing modlets for others and rewriting old code to make it more efficient, I probably have broken the 1000 hour mark already.