PC Traders and quests need to be nerfed

[meganoth]

How about that for a compromise; let's not make the damage random, lets make it linearly dependent on the repair status (% of current durability). As higher tiers get more durability, the damage drop slows down, so each tier IS a notable upgrade - even if it didn't get any extra damage at baseline? You'll do plenty more damage per repair, or if you're keen on sticking to certain amount of swings per block, you'll save a lot of kits.

Why would that be a compromise? That is another good way to solve the problem I think. TFP removed the damage degradation for some (to me) unknown reason, but they should sincerely think about re-adding it at least for tools. But it would be a good feature for weapons too. It doesn't even need to go down to 0 damage at 0 durability if they want to have some minimum damage as a newbie protection maybe(?).

So for the rest of the horde I spent couple in-game hours just parkouring around the Box Factory, killing things for fun.

I am pretty sure one or two of my co-players could not do this without getting killed. And even I always take the wrong turn when unexpected situations arise. This is why we tend to err on the side of bigger and sturdier bases.

But that's day 35.. if you guys are running two quests a day as 4(?), you're seeing first demos on .. d14? Not 7 already, I hope Makes for quite a bit of difference in approach.

Bunch of middle to old age guys with bad reflexes can't do 7d2d on insane, we don't have demos on day 14

Then again, single player, one day a week wouldn't accomplish much in the early weeks (before the upgrades are essentially over). Maybe a good ditch, maybe some small crafting/storage area underground.

Early weeks a single player can easily have plenty of cheap wood and some cobblestone from resource piles to fortify central blocks. And early SP hordes are not that good at block damage and not in big numbers. So it is quite possible to already start with the nukleus of what eventually will be the final horde base. But mining, yes, I usually refrain from doing much in the first week, a little more in the next week, ...

 

[theFlu]

Why would that be a compromise?

If you don't want it to be random for randomness' sake, and only offered RNG as a solution to the issue of scaling, then I guess it's not a compromise. But I honestly thought you wanted it to be specifically random.

For weapons I wouldn't mind some honest randomness; that's partially in game already with the random zed health. It's not too visible, but the fights no longer feel like carbon copies (you know, "this guy again: three hits to knock down, then a power swing to finish it"). For hostiles that's an improvement, for a "dig out these 2k blocks to make room for your plans" I'd rather not There's good random, and there's bad random. There's a whole sector of psychology studying such things for essentially addicting customers.

Bunch of middle to old age guys with bad reflexes

I'm no spring chicken myself, but I have spent an unhealthy amount of actual years in games... but my "story time" wasn't for bragging, it was for comparison; we're basically playing completely different games between SP and MP. So, me not using many tiers of tools being the meta for SP and you guys wanting to use them for MP meta.. it's not that surprising in the end.

 

[meganoth]

If you don't want it to be random for randomness' sake, and only offered RNG as a solution to the issue of scaling, then I guess it's not a compromise. But I honestly thought you wanted it to be specifically random.

It was a rhetorical question to make clear that your solution seems equivalent to me and not in any way a solution where I'd have to compromise somewhere.

Though again, whether the hoped for effect turns up would have to be tested, as it isn't safe to assume that players would make the connection between quality and the number of repair kits they need.

I'm no spring chicken myself, but I have spent an unhealthy amount of actual years in games... but my "story time" wasn't for bragging, it was for comparison; we're basically playing completely different games between SP and MP. So, me not using many tiers of tools being the meta for SP and you guys wanting to use them for MP meta.. it's not that surprising in the end.

But you were comparing with us getting demos on day 7 or 14 which isn't the case and therefore it does NOT "make for quite a difference in approach" as you were assuming.

I still don't agree that there is much of a different situation in SP. The resources in SP are lower so a single player won't update his tools as often as someone in MP, but A) a player also has no need to if he knows where the switchpoints are and B) he will still be sorely disappointed if he just made or found(!) or bought(!) a better one and finds out it has no effect at all.

 

[theFlu]

But you were comparing with us getting demos on day 7 or 14

It was also a question; the structure wasn't a standard basic form for one, but I figured those question marks would suffice. I kinda expected you to go "nah, we're getting them at d28", to allow for some comparison. But nah, you just went "no, you're wrogn". I can't improve my comparison with that.

It sounded like you're doing just a little less quests as I am, but as a group, which should increase your horde gamestage a little faster then mine does.

Though again, whether the hoped for effect turns up would have to be tested, as it isn't safe to assume that players would make the connection between quality and the number of repair kits they need.

Could I test that for myself somehow? Maybe make it into a mod and try if I like it?

I still don't agree that there is much of a different situation in SP.

And you blame me of misunderstanding the meta. At best we disagree, but if you're playing MP and SP the same way, I'd argue you haven't found the differences yet, nor adjusted your SP playstyle to them.

The act of shoveling those pallets, for a simple example. They used to give cobblestone, 35 iirc. Those I would shovel sometimes, if there were plenty of them. Atm, they give clay and a pittance of cobblestone and stone. About 5 each, so 10 cobble per, and then clay and sand. I don't need sand for anything in SP until late game. Clay, the normal 200 HP dirt blocks give (a little) more clay than the pallets do; I can get clay whenever I need it. What I don't have is the inventory space to carry around nonsense. Space, something a group of 4 will have 4 times more of.

 

[meganoth]

It was also a question; the structure wasn't a standard basic form for one, but I figured those question marks would suffice.

It was meant as a compliment that you found a solution on par with mine that I totally overlooked even though it was in the game once.

I kinda expected you to go "nah, we're getting them at d28", to allow for some comparison. But nah, you just went "no, you're wrogn". I can't improve my comparison with that.

It sounded like you're doing just a little less quests as I am, but as a group, which should increase your horde gamestage a little faster then mine does.

I don't know when they will arrive, I am not there yet ! We are before horde night day 21 or day 28 now, my co-player is sure we are before day 28 but I am not.

I probably could figure out some probability of demos arriving by checking current gamestage, but I never looked at gamestage the whole game and checking now inbetween sessions is some effort. I can't even say what level I am except that my character bugged out a few in-game days before and I had to start anew at level 1 and I remember that I went back up to level 34 because that was the minimum level of the others.

And I don't know what the changes like the POI buffs to gamestage will do to horde night, so comparison with previous alphas is hardly accurate, IF I even did remember when they arrived then and were sure in which of those runs I did play vanilla instead of a mod.

Could I test that for myself somehow? Maybe make it into a mod and try if I like it?

@BFT2020 among others might know if it can be done in xml, i.e. whether it is an easy mod to do. It depends on whether quality of an item is directly accessible from xml.

And you blame me of misunderstanding the meta. At best we disagree, but if you're playing MP and SP the same way, I'd argue you haven't found the differences yet, nor adjusted your SP playstyle to them.

I disagree that some optimal path in the game is automatically a meta that TFP wants their players to follow. For example the building part has so many possibilities and TFP has so many different players to take into account (especially beginners) that they will never be able to reign in the power of building to some strict balance. Players will always find minimal horde base builds that trick the AI and those build will be distributed to all players that spoil their fun by watching youtubers use those builds instead of trying to find the best builds themselves. 

What you as expert player with the knowledge of hundreds of other players infused into you should do is increase block damage of the zombies even further than the difficulty setting, maybe then you need to do more than build a fence.

The act of shoveling those pallets, for a simple example. They used to give cobblestone, 35 iirc. Those I would shovel sometimes, if there were plenty of them. Atm, they give clay and a pittance of cobblestone and stone. About 5 each, so 10 cobble per, and then clay and sand. I don't need sand for anything in SP until late game. Clay, the normal 200 HP dirt blocks give (a little) more clay than the pallets do; I can get clay whenever I need it. What I don't have is the inventory space to carry around nonsense. Space, something a group of 4 will have 4 times more of.

You are correct in that I haven't noticed that yet though I have sensed that something is different. In my sp it hasn't made a difference yet, in MP we have a miner which makes the difference moot.

I always have unlimited "inventory space" in my SP game, its called "secure storage box on the street" . I know that one of my co-players used to complain there is no use for mining anymore because of the resource blocks in POIs giving too much. Obviously TFP noticed too and adjusted the amount, maybe too far to the other side(?). That's something to playtest and complain if it isn't worth collecting. One thing is for sure, TFP will not want stuff standing around in POIs in masses that isn't worth collecting at all

 

[theFlu]

It was meant as a compliment

Well, thanks!

I don't know when they will arrive, I am not there yet !

Fair enough, no need to check. I think we've found some differences between MP and SP even without knowing that detail.

I disagree that some optimal path in the game is automatically a meta that TFP wants their players to follow.

Here we are talking past one another again; meta doesn't care what the developer intended or wanted. It includes bugs, poorly balanced features, oversights etc. It is the "best way to play the game in the current knowledge". You don't have to follow it, much less to a T, but it's always there. It's highly important in PvP circles, not so much in anything non-competitive.

What you as expert player with the knowledge of hundreds of other players infused into you should do is increase block damage of the zombies even further than the difficulty setting, maybe then you need to do more than build a fence.

For example this; I get the point, "I should find better difficulty settings for myself". But I'll carry on to use that as an example of a part of the current meta, which to me looks quite unintentional: If I were to increase the block damage from the zeds by 5x, there's roughly two things I'd need to change. Make the bottom of my pathing up-ramp out of terrain, so the zeds won't accidentally bork their pathing. Three blocks of wood / cobble replaced with 3 blocks of topsoil / destroyed stone. And cover my ele fences (or the LoS to myself) with a couple extra blocks so the cops won't break the fences if they accidentally get to puke. I would get 2 more steel quest rewards to upgrade the 4 important blocks the zeds might get a lucky hit in on, but that would likely be found unnecessary.

This is probably Not what TFP would want the meta to be; all because the Ele Fences are stupidly OP still. (And because the terrain breaking mechanics  are a little .. disabled.)

instead of trying to find the best builds themselves.

Like evolution tending towards crabs, these will also tend towards the meta. What works, works for everyone; with potential local maxima for individual differences.

that they will never be able to reign in the power of building to some strict balance.

Yeh, I'm not expecting them to; as a problem it's a self-driving-car on steroids, the environment can be horribly wild, and is openly hostile as the players are breaking it intentionally. Not exactly easy to solve, especially when your sim is eating all your clock cycles already.

I always have unlimited "inventory space" in my SP game, its called "secure storage box on the street" .

I used to do that a lot, leave the unwanted junk in map-marked boxes across the city, then once I had a minibike or better, do a quick delivery run to gather them all. As the alphas have been evolving more and more towards questing, I haven't really found general drop boxes necessary, or even that useful anymore. I stopped using them entirely in A20, now I just have a few boxes at the trader to leave stuff in, before the next quest. I take from POIs what I currently need (like plastics on days 1-3), and what can't be found elsewhere (mech parts, springs) + whatever I can fill the rest of my space with for selling.

Obviously TFP noticed too and adjusted the amount, maybe too far to the other side(?).

I'm not sure where they want the balance; the pallet mats seem to be there to give loot-only players a good amount of things to build with. But if it's not actually worth more to harvest those, then a dedicated mining session will not only yield the same amount in the same time, it will also yield exactly as much as you need, optimizing use of time. And inventory space

 

[meganoth]

Here we are talking past one another again; meta doesn't care what the developer intended or wanted.

Well, then you have accidentally sometimes used language that seems to suggest they are intending this or that meta or are designing for it:

I don't expect the game to be balanced around me; but I'm basically doing what TFP has designed for the current meta, questing

With the current meta, I don't think I'm Meant to use them, but I still do, some.

No need to explain whatever else you meant with these sentences since we finally arrived at a definition of meta. Which is (to me) simply a synonym for the optimal path to play the game. Something a game company usually wants to balance away as much as possible so that there are multiple different paths that are almost all optimal. Not many complex games reach that target, the only one that is surely in that category to my knowledge is Starcraft.

I believe that TFP is not looking at the optimal path or meta to balance their game except to nerf it if too many players follow that to the exclusion of everything else. The optimal path or meta almost randomly changes slightly or profoundly with every version and every balance change, so why should they?

TFP will not look at resource piles and ask "what does this mean in the current meta?", they will ask "Are resource piles something nobody or everybody is collecting? If yes, they need some balancing". And just because veteran players have a meta to not collect them does not mean that there isn't a portion of players who do collect them, only telemetry knows.

And to come back to our topic: When they look at shovels and see that only very few quality steps make a difference they won't look at the meta and decide that they don't need to do anything because the **current** meta by accident says to ignore shovel progression anyway because shovels are not used much by "meta" players. They will look at a suboptimal shovel progression and try to fix it if possible.

Like evolution tending towards crabs, these will also tend towards the meta. What works, works for everyone; with potential local maxima for individual differences.

Evolution is also very very slow , most players will need time to find the meta (or their own way to play outside the meta), which is enough for TFP who doesn't assume that players play the game for eternity. And metas don't work for everyone: An expert player may find a meta that other players simply can't emulate even if they watch him on youtube (or they would not like to play that way). As I said I doubt that I could play what you are doing and I am very sure 2 of my friends can not play like that. And I see examples of other people here on the forum that for one reason or another are not following your meta. I agree that if this were a PvP game the meta would be much more important, but 7D2D's focus is not PvP.

I'm not sure where they want the balance; the pallet mats seem to be there to give loot-only players a good amount of things to build with. But if it's not actually worth more to harvest those, then a dedicated mining session will not only yield the same amount in the same time, it will also yield exactly as much as you need, optimizing use of time. And inventory space

But some players don't like a dedicated mining session, especially with stone axes, and prefer to get resources peacemeal between or as part of the looting. There seem to be players who not only loot a POI but completely strip everything that might have some value from it and they have fun with that. It may not be the optimal way to get the specific resources but as long as it isn't miles behind it is their "meta". If everyone followed the optimal path they would not exist, neither would I.

 

[BFT2020]

@BFT2020 among others might know if it can be done in xml, i.e. whether it is an easy mod to do. It depends on whether quality of an item is directly accessible from xml.

@theFlu

Test what exactly?  Hard to follow your debate sometimes as you both are all over the place.  

 

[meganoth]

@theFlu

Test what exactly?  Hard to follow your debate sometimes as you both are all over the place.  

Is it easy to make a mod so that damage of a weapon degrades with its current durability value? I.e. that a weapon at 50% durability does less damage than at 100%.

 

[BFT2020]

Is it easy to make a mod so that damage of a weapon degrades with its current durability value? I.e. that a weapon at 50% durability does less damage than at 100%.

Maybe, but I am no expert.  And I think you need to go into c# code to do some of this (again not an expert).

You could probably create a buff on player entity that compares the item durability being held in hand against its max durability, and the apply a perc_add to entity or block damage (for example -0.1).  You would need to know what the CVAR variable names are that you want to compare for the durability though.  The check would likely use the GT operation and you would set the value to be 0.5.  This would set it up to remove the debuff if durability is greater than 50%

The game already does it for armor so that would be a good starting point

        <effect_group>
            <requirement name="StatCompareCurrent" stat="Armor" operation="GT" value="0.25"/>
            <triggered_effect trigger="onSelfBuffUpdate" action="RemoveBuff" buff="buffStatusArmorLow"/>
        </effect_group>





but this is setup to compare the player stats which I don't believe the item durability is being shown in there.  Game also does it for food and water (StatComparePercCurrentToMax).

The CVARs should already be in game, that is how it tracks your durability, especially when you save your game and come back later, or repair items back to their max value.

 

[theFlu]

Test what exactly?  Hard to follow your debate sometimes as you both are all over the place.  

Don't worry, we're just chatting by now At face value, "random damage for tools" OR "durability-scaled damage for tools". But I already know it's not an easy task. Sorry for getting you dragged in

Behind my slightly mischievous mask, the implied question was "would me modding it in - to test it - be of any utility; much like I claimed BFT's modding might be of some value?". For that, there were no obvious counterpoints given, so we can sort of assume the answer was at least "it might".

Well, then you have accidentally sometimes used language that seems to suggest they are intending this or that meta or are designing for it:

Nothing accidental in either of those, I still stand firmly by both of those sentences. Just because a meta doesn't care about the developer, the developer usually does care about the meta. First of them "what TFP has designed for the current meta, questing" was about me assuming TFP want us questing, a lot - and succeeded at it, thus pushing the meta into that direction. It's been one the main features they've been developing for the few past alphas, even I would try to direct people to test it out in their shoes.

The second "With the current meta, I don't think I'm Meant to use them", I was talking about the actual meta of the game, using shovels for large amounts of time in the early game is pretty useless in the current meta.

With the paragraphs about meta vs TFP vs pallets, I largely agree.

They will look at a suboptimal shovel progression and try to fix it if possible.

Assuming they even consider the progression suboptimal, I haven't seen them wholly unhappy about it. It's a temporary tool whose quality is determined by RNG most of the time, quest reward, or loot. Unless they somehow slow us down enough to actually make our shovels, the randomness will hide the progress anyway.

And metas don't work for everyone:

Agreed for the most of the para; most which I referred to as "local maxima" in the quote, people having their limits, actual or self-imposed, having their own optimum.

But some players don't like a dedicated mining session,

Which is fine, but has absolutely No bearing on the part where I joined in - I don't want randomness in my mining.

The rest of this has been entertaining thou, so ...

 

[Riamus]

Talking about traders, would it be possible to remove a trader from the list.

Now i am getting the same trader 2 to 3 times in the list.

And no option to remove them from the list.

This appears to be a bug and has been mentioned before.  I'm not sure if anyone created a bug report for it yet.  I have duplicate traders for all my traders, though since I'm still on a save from experimental, that may be the cause for me.

 

[THEEGELNL]

This appears to be a bug and has been mentioned before.  I'm not sure if anyone created a bug report for it yet.  I have duplicate traders for all my traders, though since I'm still on a save from experimental, that may be the cause for me.

I am playing on Multiplayer with a new map from stable.

 

[Riamus]

I am playing on Multiplayer with a new map from stable.

By any chance, do you have the same number of duplicates for each trader as the number of players?  I play 2 player and have 2 each.  I wonder if it is adding them for each player to every player.

 

[Ray Garraty]

Traders and quests need to be nerfed

Traders have already been nerfed by removing the Secret Stash.

 

[theFlu]

Traders have already been nerfed by removing the Secret Stash.

Even the OP knows that.. but thanks, made me read a couple of the first posts, and think of something else:

Everyone's questing like mad as it's pretty much optimal for gearing up. It kinda looks to me TFP have intended each quest tier to take about a week for normal play. Now, I don't like suggesting this, as I'd have to figure out something else to do, but how about limiting trader opening hours to roughly 8 from the current 16? You'd still get about three tier ones in, and it as such it wouldn't horribly slow down things; but us gear optimizers would have to settle for more normal looting for at least a part of the day...

 

[meganoth]

The second "With the current meta, I don't think I'm Meant to use them", I was talking about the actual meta of the game, using shovels for large amounts of time in the early game is pretty useless in the current meta.

"I am meant ..." is stating that there is a mind behind this that purposely provides incentives for you to do or not do something by creating a specific meta. If speaking poetically then god, mother earth or randon chance would work, but you have to indicate somewhere that you are using flowery language now or you will be misunderstood. You may say that the "M" is an indication, that would give you points for subtlety but not clarity. If not speaking poetically TFP is the only intelligent entity able to provide the incentives. Which lead me to a different definition of "meta" then the one you were using. And since my reply to that sentence was clearly showing that I did not use your definition of meta you could have cleared this up much earlier, by the way.

 

[theFlu]

that would give you points for subtlety but not clarity.

And brevity; yes, the capital Meant refers to an unknown entity that has made the meta into what it is; whether you want to substitute that with TFP, mistakes, any number of deities or demons, a deterministic universe or a planet full of white mice, is left entirely up for debate. If you wish to have that debate, I'm probably not one to have it with.

But, Welcome to the wonderful world of internet forums! People tend to be lazy here and not spell dissertations over "I don't want randomness in my mining". Now, here's a little hint for a new forum user: if you avoid telling people they don't understand themselves, the game they're playing or the language they're using, you'll probably do fine here. Maybe even make some friends.

 

[IrishManJMo]

I agree they are OP and need a big nerf. I don't think traders should offer weapons or tools as a reward at all, maybe just parts. You should mainly be crafting and looting stuff and should only be able to buy weapons and tools slightly better than what you would craft and they could be fairly expensive. Otherwise, I think you should use the traders a lot for resources and stuff like duct tape.

I was going to suggest this exact same thing especially since in this alpha resources are much more scarce than before or slower to start obtaining if not specced into something in particular i.e. forged steel in t2 rewards are nice imo.

 

[meganoth]

And brevity; yes, the capital Meant refers to an unknown entity that has made the meta into what it is; whether you want to substitute that with TFP, mistakes, any number of deities or demons, a deterministic universe or a planet full of white mice, is left entirely up for debate. If you wish to have that debate, I'm probably not one to have it with.

But, Welcome to the wonderful world of internet forums! People tend to be lazy here and not spell dissertations over "I don't want randomness in my mining". Now, here's a little hint for a new forum user: if you avoid telling people they don't understand themselves, the game they're playing or the language they're using, you'll probably do fine here. Maybe even make some friends.

I'm doing fine being obnoxious here.