PC Traders and quests need to be nerfed

[theFlu]

Sorry, a face-swap in doom guy is not bringing variety to that game, not how I meant it and not how you should interpret it.

Reading with a little steel-manning might help, especially with me ..

I invented a pointless "mod" on the spot, just to show that I fully understand there are different types of mods, ranging from absolutely pointless to literal fixes to base game, to full overhauls completely making new games. Was shorter that way, and a little funnier, but here I am explaining myself again, wasting that time-saving-measure. My bad.

But as I went on to say, I don't think what BFT2020 is doing with his mod is pointless to the discussion? You not saying anything about the actual point makes me ask, do you agree? Is a crafting re-write pointless to the discussion of game balance in the area?

Do you agree that a person spending, say 1000 hours (sorry BFT, I'm probably underselling your work) to "fix" something is a lot stronger show of actual belief of there being something wrong, than my measly 5...50 hours (however you want to measure it) of whining about stealth on the forums?

 

[meganoth]

Reading with a little steel-manning might help, especially with me ..

I invented a pointless "mod" on the spot, just to show that I fully understand there are different types of mods, ranging from absolutely pointless to literal fixes to base game, to full overhauls completely making new games. Was shorter that way, and a little funnier, but here I am explaining myself again, wasting that time-saving-measure. My bad.

But as I went on to say, I don't think what BFT2020 is doing with his mod is pointless to the discussion? You not saying anything about the actual point makes me ask, do you agree? Is a crafting re-write pointless to the discussion of game balance in the area?

Do you agree that a person spending, say 1000 hours (sorry BFT, I'm probably underselling your work) to "fix" something is a lot stronger show of actual belief of there being something wrong, than my measly 5...50 hours (however you want to measure it) of whining about stealth on the forums?

"being something wrong" is the problem. Someone not liking or wanting to change or changing the aspect of the game is not inherently saying that something is wrong with the game. A motor that doesn't fit into a cars motor compartment does not necessarily say something about the motor compartment being wrong but it may only mean they are not compatible and are not meant to be compatible.

If I followed your argument it would mean there could be a game that is perfect and would be played to the end of time by everyone on the planet. Because only if that perfext game existed then nobody would ever have a reason to mod. But the reality is that even if there were a perfect game A for me and a perfect game B for you, it is very likely that A and B would be different games.

 

[8_Hussars]

Probably because many players like quests.  If you don't want to quest, you don't need to.  They can leave quests there for all the people who like to quest and you can still play without them if you choose.  There's nothing stopping you from doing so.  Asking to remove something just because you don't like it even though many others do isn't a good option.

There is room for both approaches.

I find that quests are really just a more efficient means to an end.   But lets not conflate "players like quests" with "players do quests to advance".  We need to recognize that there are players who do quests but who do not like them (probably more than we think).

 

 

[theFlu]

"being something wrong" is the problem. Someone not liking or wanting to change or changing the aspect of the game is not inherently saying that something is wrong with the game. A motor that doesn't fit into a cars motor compartment does not necessarily say something about the motor compartment being wrong but it may only mean they are not compatible and are not meant to be compatible.

If I followed your argument it would mean there could be a game that is perfect and would be played to the end of time by everyone on the planet. Because only if that perfext game existed then nobody would ever have a reason to mod. But the reality is that even if there were a perfect game A for me and a perfect game B for you, it is very likely that A and B would be different games.

Not what I've argued. If you want me to reply, figure out a way to answer the questions I posed.

 

[BFT2020]

Indeed, one could even argue that the fact of you modding the game is a much, much stronger vote for something being wrong in the game than anything I have or will write on this forum.

Not really, it just means I am different.  Take for example trader rewards on quest completion.  I don't like that, so I modded it out so you only get dukes (and Daring Adventure now just boosts more dukes rather than getting two choices at max perk level).  There is nothing wrong with quest rewards as a ton of games out there do it, I just don't like its current configuration so I changed it to my vision / desires.

Though talking about it does give others ideas, maybe even developers who take what others are doing and applying / fixing / modifying it to work in the base game or decide, nah, does not fit their vision.

 

[theFlu]

A stronger VOTE.

A vote is still essentially an opinion, no?

"stronger", in the sense of "I think they actually might mean it."

The concept is the same as in "Watch what they do, not what they say." With possibly a less negative connotation.

 

[BFT2020]

A stronger VOTE.

A vote is still essentially an opinion, no?

"stronger", in the sense of "I think they actually might mean it."

The concept is the same as in "Watch what they do, not what they say." With possibly a less negative connotation.

Are you a politician in real life?  

Not necessary, I have opinions on things, but doesn't mean I would vote for it.

 

[theFlu]

Are you a politician in real life?  

I'm usually in the opposite side of dodging the point. I would lose my mind trying to avoid answering a question as much as they do...

Not necessary, I have opinions on things, but doesn't mean I would vote for it.

You might not vote for it, but your actions speak louder than your words ..

Yes, there's a split there, between "you voting for what is good for the general audience and/or TFP" and "you 'voting' for what's good for you".. but for the latter, your mod is the actual 'vote' that counts.

 

[meganoth]

Do you agree that a person spending, say 1000 hours (sorry BFT, I'm probably underselling your work) to "fix" something is a lot stronger show of actual belief of there being something wrong, than my measly 5...50 hours (however you want to measure it) of whining about stealth on the forums?

If this is the question you want answered, then my answer would be: Maybe, maybe not. And I would have to say that it is a leading question, a judge would throw it out of the court.

In those 5 hours you could actually complain about a real reason, a weakness in the game, while the modder invested 1000 hours for a completely different reason than to fix anything. I once made a mod because I found the idea nice, not because the game was necessarily better for it, not even better for me. I assume BFT has fun modding, so naturally he spends a lot of time modding. And he may have modded for a 1000 hours, but surely not all of that on one issue like making weapons unrepairable, give him some credit please . Did you have fun complaining for 5 hours? Is your hobby to complain? Probably not.

Oh, nice comment by BFT about his motivation: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/32964-please-tell-me-what-is-the-deal-with-7dtd/?do=findComment&comment=530778

 

[theFlu]

And I would have to say that it is a leading question, a judge would throw it out of the court.

Leading question.. those two questions covered my original point, you missed one:

"Is a crafting re-write pointless to the discussion" in thread "Traders and quests need to be nerfed"? I'd say "crafting" is one of the things "traders and quests" need to be balanced against; I was talking to BFT, specifically about BFT's mod(ding).

But since you want to talk about all kinds of mods, from all kinds of people, for all kinds of motivations and NOT BFT's crafting re-write, you will consider the point "Irrelevant, Your Honor! Not all mods are like that!". Feel free, but you'll miss the point then.

Did BFT spend a thousand hours on exactly crafting? Probably not, I wouldn't know. But he's kept that part in the mod and advocates for changing things in that direction, so I'd assume he likes the results over a prolonged period of time. He has walked the walk of actually changing the trader / crafting balance to his liking, tested it out - why would I assume he doesn't think it's for the better? He's done it to make it worse for himself, and advocates others to share in his misery?

My 5 hours complaining about stealth have been entertaining, nothing beats a good whining session. Thanks for asking My inability/unwillingness to learn to create a better stealth system for the game... my draft ideas would require a re-design of basically all POIs and probably quite a few C#-level re-writes so I don't even pretend to want to take the task upon me. Makes my whining a lot less significant, as I have NOT tested anything I want.

His stated motivation.. "wanted to add my uniqueness". Sure, so it's still his unique opinion, has someone somewhere argued something different?

 

[EvilPolygons]

I was partly able to mitigate the "OP trader rewards" problem by simply using an item degradation mod. Now, even if a weapon or tool reward is better than what I can currently craft, anytime I repair that item, it can degrade a quality level.

With this sort of mechanic, quests can give nice rewards without making crafting irrelevant because a top-quality quest reward will eventually wear out and be crappier than what you can craft.

It also makes repairing equipment more of a strategic decision, because repairing too often may shorten the overall useful life of the tool. So it adds a bit more depth to that side of the game, as well.

Another plus with item degradation is that it removes part of the endgame wall you eventually hit in games, where you have the best of everything and there's no point in looting or questing because there's nothing better than what you already have; nothing stays the best for long and so you never run out of reasons to loot or craft.

 

[Ripflex]

Wow, this is a lot of pages on this issue.  But a question to the OP, was this Trader rewards OPness with Unranking Better Barter and Daring Adventurer ??  Because it matters.  IMO If player rank up Daring Adventurer and Better Barter alongside with Lucky Looter - they SHOULD get higher tier loot, or these skills are pointless to have if the game would gate you anyways with the changes you suggest; or am I missing something ?

Why I ask, I usually get 2 - 3 ranks as early as possible in those 3 skills in the purpose of obtaining better loot than what I can craft.

 

[meganoth]

Wow, this is a lot of pages on this issue.  But a question to the OP, was this Trader rewards OPness with Unranking Better Barter and Daring Adventurer ??  Because it matters.  IMO If player rank up Daring Adventurer and Better Barter alongside with Lucky Looter - they SHOULD get higher tier loot, or these skills are pointless to have if the game would gate you anyways with the changes you suggest; or am I missing something ?

Why I ask, I usually get 2 - 3 ranks as early as possible in those 3 skills in the purpose of obtaining better loot than what I can craft.

Since you are asking the OP specifically, he mentioned in his first post that he did not have any points in those perks.

But there is the additional question whether DA is too good? Compare it to Lucky Looter, the perk that boosts looting but doesn't seem to have that much of a loot boost that players would be compelled to perk into it even if they spec into a different attribute. My main reason for speccing into LL is the speed boost.

 

[Blake_]

I personally believe y'all make fair points. BUT, what if bandits are in, and a complex system of random encounters makes it in   and the game becomes much more difficult? then the crazy amount and quality of rewards and loot would be partially justified and naturally restrained. And then balancing would become easier.

 

[RipClaw]

But there is the additional question whether DA is too good? Compare it to Lucky Looter, the perk that boosts looting but doesn't seem to have that much of a loot boost that players would be compelled to perk into it even if they spec into a different attribute. My main reason for speccing into LL is the speed boost.

Daring Adventurer is definitely strong because every level in Daring Adventurer alone is worth 10 player levels without doing any quests. Iron tools start at traderstage 15 and steel tools at traderstage 50.

Lucky Looter on the other hand doesn't help much at the beginning because it only increases the lootstage slightly, if at all. Level 1 is just 5% on top of the lootstage.

This whole "issue" doesn't concern most of the players anyway. It is, as MadMole would say, a vocal minority.

 

[meganoth]

"Is a crafting re-write pointless to the discussion" in thread "Traders and quests need to be nerfed"? I'd say "crafting" is one of the things "traders and quests" need to be balanced against; I was talking to BFT, specifically about BFT's mod(ding).

Sorry for that, I actually misread your "questions" as only singular "question" and actually wondered which one it was I should answer

And I would answer: It depends on his motives and his tastes.

But since you want to talk about all kinds of mods, from all kinds of people, for all kinds of motivations and NOT BFT's crafting re-write, you will consider the point "Irrelevant, Your Honor! Not all mods are like that!". Feel free, but you'll miss the point then.

I just gave one example of a mod of mine and ALL the rest of my post was specifically about BFT and his 1000 hours (or whatever time he invested in modding already) which were certainly not all used to create a crafting rewrite. And this is what I am saying with the leading question: You imply that he invested 1000 hours only into the crafting rewrite, you imply that he did this because he is dissatisfied with crafting as it is. But both are just assumptions and I would prefer first asking BFT about that instead of assuming it.

Did BFT spend a thousand hours on exactly crafting? Probably not, I wouldn't know. But he's kept that part in the mod and advocates for changing things in that direction, so I'd assume he likes the results over a prolonged period of time. He has walked the walk of actually changing the trader / crafting balance to his liking, tested it out - why would I assume he doesn't think it's for the better? He's done it to make it worse for himself, and advocates others to share in his misery?

I think I remember BFT saying his tastes are different than the average 7d2d player or his mod not being the right one for most players. This may be modesty or simply the truth. And he advocated it to specific players having a problem with crafting because assumedly in these cases his mod likely is the solution. Does he think the mod should be adopted by TFP? Maybe.

Your theory is that his applying dozens of hours to mod it is a stronger vote than your posting, i.e. that it irks him more than it does you. But he seems to like modding and seem to like testing out ideas. Crafting might irk you both the same, but he turns to crafting to solve this and we simply don't know his threshold for irkiness where he will turn to modding. 

I am sure I could easily list a few forum users that seem to be much more dissatisfied with the game than BFT is but they never wrote a mod and just post.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Are we still talking about traders and quests? I'm having a hard time following this vote-modding questionnaire debate. Does the winner get to decide if there should be changes or not?

 

[meganoth]

I personally believe y'all make fair points. BUT, what if bandits are in, and a complex system of random encounters makes it in   and the game becomes much more difficult? then the crazy amount and quality of rewards and loot would be partially justified and naturally restrained. And then balancing would become easier.

Even then players would want some of their equipment to fight bandits to come from looting or crafting and not all from the trader. The solution can be to reign in the trader OR to speed up looting and crafting.

Are we still talking about traders and quests? I'm having a hard time following this vote-modding questionnaire debate. Does the winner get to decide if there should be changes or not?

But we haven't even reached the "you said this 5 posts earlier" phase !!! 

 

[Roland]

I don't think we will know whether mods or popularity of mods is an actual indication of anything until the majority of the playerbase is participating in those things. Right now players who play mods are a minority faction of the player base and players who author mods are a smaller minority and players who author overhaul mods are extremely tiny. If there was no barrier at all to modding or playing mods so that everyone could do it we would likely have so many variants on the default version so as to see there really is no consensus at all about "fixing" anything.

Options are a good place to look for "voting". If 95% of the playerbase always adjusts their options to play 75% loot or less then that is a powerful vote that something is wrong with the loot balance. If 95% of the playerbase always enables feral sense every time they play then that is a strong vote to the devs for what the default version should be. Options are easy for everyone to participate in.

Just because a mod is popular among those who play mods doesn't make it a strong vote that the default version of the game needs to be changed in that direction. I also don't know at what point the devs would want to change a popular options to just being the default version of the game. If 90% 80% 70% of the playerbase always defaults to that option? What is the cut off point where that option would be viewed as a "fix" for the current default version? And if it is tough to know for such a clearcut action that is universally accessible like enabling an option then how much tougher is it to determine that based on authoring or playing a mod?

In the example brought up in this thread, item degradation is a very polarizing idea. I'm all for it but others would see it as breaking the game instead of fixing the game. If TFP ever adds an option for item degradation it would be interesting to see what percentage of the player base actually votes that the lack of it currently is something that is broken and needs fixing.

 

[RipClaw]

In the example brought up in this thread, item degradation is a very polarizing idea. I'm all for it but others would see it as breaking the game instead of fixing the game. If TFP ever adds an option for item degradation it would be interesting to see what percentage of the player base actually votes that the lack of it currently is something that is broken and needs fixing.

It all depends on the implementation. I have read some comments from hardcore players suggesting that the item should lose one quality level for each repair. Q1 can't be repaired and Q6 can only be repaired 5 times. I think that would be total overkill, unless the durability is increased significantly.