PC Tools Degrading in Quality again

[BFT2020]

No, I was making a joke.

My mistake.

To add to this thread, I removed the ability to repair items in my games.  It does change how you approach regular days and horde nights.  I would craft a Q5 T2 weapon for horde nights (full durability) and slap on the durability mods for it, using any T3 Q6 weapon I find with half damage or less just for looting / POI work.

Really looking towards the crafting changes in A21, will match up nicely with how I play.

 

[Roland]

Can you give me some examples where it worked well?  Any games I have seen it in, it was nothing but a grind.

It works well in any game as long as the player isn't focused on leveling up for its own sake and is fine with leveling up at a normal pace. If the player can play naturally and allow their skills to advance at a normal pace based on normal play then LBD gives an incredibly organic and natural feeling of progression. I agree that limits to how much you can progress per day would definitely help those with min/max tendencies to refrain from power grinding but that would bring new complaints and hate from players. There are those who hate playing the actual game at suboptimal levels with suboptimal gear. They like to grind themselves up to highest harvesting levels (for example) BEFORE they start chopping trees or mining ore. Just knowing that they are missing out on wood they could've gotten from that tree if they were just a higher level frustrates them.

The issue is that there are those who power grind and love to power grind and find it fun and rewarding to do so and they never complain about LBD. Then there are those who power grind because they feel compelled to power grind but don't find it fun to do so and complain about LBD. Finally, there are those who don't power grind and simply play the game looking to complete tasks and objectives that arise within the game world and are happy to have their character level up in skills as they use them normally and they never complain about LBD. So really, it is only one segment of a player base that complains about LBD-- those who level for the sake of leveling but find the grind boring and awful and yet can't refrain from focusing on leveling. The problem is that with limits placed on daily LBD, the only players who wouldn't complain are the ones who don't focus completely on leveling up.

I don't think that is a problem with the design, itself. That is simply a result of player choice and psychology (which can be changed btw)

 

[Riamus]

It works well in any game as long as the player isn't focused on leveling up for its own sake and is fine with leveling up at a normal pace. If the player can play naturally and allow their skills to advance at a normal pace based on normal play then LBD gives an incredibly organic and natural feeling of progression. I agree that limits to how much you can progress per day would definitely help those with min/max tendencies to refrain from power grinding but that would bring new complaints and hate from players. There are those who hate playing the actual game at suboptimal levels with suboptimal gear. They like to grind themselves up to highest harvesting levels (for example) BEFORE they start chopping trees or mining ore. Just knowing that they are missing out on wood they could've gotten from that tree if they were just a higher level frustrates them.

The issue is that there are those who power grind and love to power grind and find it fun and rewarding to do so and they never complain about LBD. Then there are those who power grind because they feel compelled to power grind but don't find it fun to do so and complain about LBD. Finally, there are those who don't power grind and simply play the game looking to complete tasks and objectives that arise within the game world and are happy to have their character level up in skills as they use them normally and they never complain about LBD. So really, it is only one segment of a player base that complains about LBD-- those who level for the sake of leveling but find the grind boring and awful and yet can't refrain from focusing on leveling. The problem is that with limits placed on daily LBD, the only players who wouldn't complain are the ones who don't focus completely on leveling up.

I don't think that is a problem with the design, itself. That is simply a result of player choice and psychology (which can be changed btw)

I suppose that is true and I know we see only a small fraction of comments here and with other games relating to what people think of LBD so the data isn't accurate that I see but it at least seems like more people don't like it than do.  But it doesn't really matter.  It'll be good for those who like it and not for those who don't.  Maybe it was Morrowind that ruined it for me with things like jumping.  If you didn't jump all the time in that game, you'd never level the skill related to jumping enough to stay even with your own leveling or anywhere close.  You simply don't jump enough naturally for the little gain per jump that they gave you.  It probably skewed my thinking regarding LBD.

I do agree that if you never put any effort into leveling skills and only played the game that you'd probably be fine with it.  And I am not someone who tries to have the best build or do everything as efficiently as possible but at the same time, I do not like having to struggle to do things because my skills are too low compared to my level and if I find something to be a grind, I will choose efficiency for that because it's such a grind.  At lower levels, it is expected that your skills are low, so the game is balanced for that, but at higher levels they expect your skills to be better and so if you aren't trying to make them better, you slowly start to be at more and more of a disadvantage.  How much of an issue that is varies from game to game but it always seems to be the case.

It is hard to balance a game based on your character's progression if your skills aren't tied in any way to your level and can vary greatly depending on how much you want to grind them.  You end up with players who have little difficulty because they have their skills so high that things are simple and players who are so low on skills that everything becomes more difficult and players across the middle of the spectrum.  Finding a balance in that is futile and they just have to pick a spot.  Maybe it wouldn't be that hard to do but I don't think I've seen a game that adjusts difficulty based on where your skill levels are instead of only your actual level if there is any adjustment in the first place - many games have each area that you progress to being more challenging instead of balancing dynamically by level.  And without taking skill levels into account when they aren't in any way tied to level, you run into that balance issue.

Either way, I do like the concept of LBD.  I just haven't seen it implemented in a way that was anything more than a pain from my perspective.

 

[Roland]

You simply don't jump enough naturally for the little gain per jump that they gave you. 

One would argue that if jumping is so insignificant in the game then there isn't really a need to level it up so significantly. I know some people liked being able to jump to rooftops in Morrowind but I never felt like that was critical to the game. Jumping at a superhuman level was just something you did for fun. What was the purpose for needing to level jump up to such high levels to the point that you felt like you had to grind it out?

Either way, I do like the concept of LBD.  I just haven't seen it implemented in a way that was anything more than a pain from my perspective.

Well, I do much prefer spending skillpoints since it gives so much more flexibility. If I don't enjoy grinding a critical skill I can still level it up to the point where I can use it to good effect by doing things I do enjoy. I'm not locked into doing that one activity in order to improve it. Skillpoint spending can still feel organic and natural provided you aren't farming xp through only one method. If you are playing the game in a well rounded fashion then the xp feels like it is a representation of your overall experience and so when you spend points to improve there isn't really a disconnect between the activities you have done and the improvement you are gaining. It is only when someone power grinds doing the one activity that they perceive grants the most xp in the fastest way possible that they feel like the xp earned doesn't match with the skill learned.

 

[Riamus]

One would argue that if jumping is so insignificant in the game then there isn't really a need to level it up so significantly. I know some people liked being able to jump to rooftops in Morrowind but I never felt like that was critical to the game. Jumping at a superhuman level was just something you did for fun. What was the purpose for needing to level jump up to such high levels to the point that you felt like you had to grind it out?

It has been so many years since I played Morrowind but I think jumping leveled up something like acrobatics and that was used in more things than just jumping.  I don't remember if there were other ways to level that skill or what all it related to.  It's been too long and I only have vague memories of it and only really remember that jumping was something I felt like it was necessary to do and that I got tired of LBD quickly in that game.  It is possible I'm not remembering it that well and maybe I played games differently back then. *shrug*

 

[Laz Man]

Am I allowed to point out that for a long time (don't know if it's true anymore) the most downloaded Minecraft mod was Tinker's Construct, which adds tools that don't permanently break and are fairly easily repairable?

Anyway, given that I usually end up repairing my tools 3-4 times a night when I'm mining (because they break), the idea of item degradation doesn't particularly appeal to me.

That said, I'd be cool with weapons degrading.  But don't take my tools.  Admittedly, I apparently play the game differently than just about everyone else (I conceptually hate the stamina changes in A21 because I normally don't spec into weapons until late game, so the stamina buffs being tied to weapons is awful for me.)

That's funny you mention that.  I'd be interested if those players are the ones who have already reached end game at least once and don't want to deal with the durability hamster wheel any further?

 

[FA_Q2]

It works well in any game as long as the player isn't focused on leveling up for its own sake and is fine with leveling up at a normal pace.

Well.... no.

The problem is deeper than that Roland.  Balance is almost impossible to achieve because some skills are highly useful but not high use and others are constant use but may or may not be high use.  This is why armor skills, both in Elder Scrolls and in this game, proved quite unwieldly.  Make leveling reasonable for the average player and it becomes broken fast for anyone that tailors their play a bit or, even worse, has just a slightly different way of playing.  Acrobatics was another one in Morrowind.  There were several problem skills in Skyrim as well.  Skills that would never max no matter how long you played unless you power leveled them in one form or another and changing the balance to make it more organic would break the game.  Then you have skills like crafting (both here and in ES) that were just necessary to power level to use at all.  In ES, I only really ever wanted a dozen enchanted items all game but you have to level that skill so if you want to make those enchantments you were going to have to make a thousand enchanted daggers.  If you leveled enchanting organically it essentially meant you were not using that skill in any manner whatsoever.  I do not see a way around that for a skill like that.

This is why I find LBD to be a fundamentally broken way of leveling unless the entire game is structured around that type of system.  That structure would limit the rest of the game significantly.  The idea itself, and the way it feels when it is in the right spot is really good but implementing it properly for an entire game is almost impossible IMHO.  I think at a bare minimum to implement an lbd system it would have to be hybridized with a more traditional leveling system.

 

[Jihh]

I'm somewhat divided about item degradation. Imho it works somewhat fine in early and mid game. "Somewhat" because you usually get upgrades in loot before any serious degradation happens, so I wouldn't say it has a big impact, but I like the idea. But I really dislike it in the endgame. If I remember correctly, back in A16 we could onehit 500 HP stone (so the most common block when mining) with a maxed out tool and skills. After the first repair we still needed one hit, so even though we had degradation in theory nothing changed at all. The same were true after the second repair. But then after the third repair we suddenly needed two hits and thus double the time and stamina.  Maybe I remember badly and it was two hits maxed out and three hits after the third repair, but that's still 50% more time/stamina per block. In my opinion that's a way too big step. If each repair had a 5% (or similar) loss in efficiency I'd probably like degradation. It was a bit better with axes where we went from 4(?) to 5(?) hits per 1200 hp tree, but that's still a 25% efficiency loss. Luckily that late in the game you usually don't chop that many trees anymore, so the overall impact wasn't that big anyway. Shovels on the other hand were onehitting dirt and sand even after tons of repairs, so the only real impact degradation had was removing the neat purple color.

Degradation works better with a system similar to Minecraft where it doesn't matter how often you hit a block, but how long. With such a system you can have a smooth curve on how degradation impacts your gameplay. In the early to mid game we have that to some degree, since we have a higher amounts hits we need to destroy a block.

Of course, we kinda have it in the endgame too thanks to the auger and chainsaw, but I really despise the auger. I like doing exact work and it always damages blocks I don't want it to damage. I rather work slower and don't have to correct my work afterwards than being fast.

So in conclusion I do like the concept of item degradation, I just don't like the way it worked in the past. Maybe instead of making the tool less powerful it could make the tool slower, so degradation could work more gradually.

Also that's why I hate that you can't craft maxed out tools. If T6 and T5 picks each need two hits (I think that's the best in A20) for a 500 hp stone block than what's the point of not being able to craft T6? But if T6 allows for two hits, while T5 only allows for three hits than crafted gear isn't just a bit worse, but a lot worse.

 

[Rince]

It works fine in Minecraft. I think it could work just fine in this game. I've done it voluntarily by scrapping broken gear instead of repairing and I felt that it was a little to fast but not too bad at all.  But that's neither here nor there. It isn't going to happen except through mods or personal choice.

But on Minecraft you can enchant your gear and set up a mob farm and you have forever gear anyways.

And getting a purple tool doesn't mean that you don't need another one for the rest of the game. You could get a bad purple, so you can still find upgrades. And  you can lose your purple one. In my current game I lost most of my tools twice (and most of everything in the first one), yes, I admit that I'm not the best 7 days player out there... probably below average, but still...

In my case, if they will degrade I know that I would never use them, because "what if I lose it and I need it later!?", and would just stick with the craftable ones, forever. And yes, I'm the one that finish the game with the inventory full of potions, because "what if I need them later!?". Too old to change now.

 

[theFlu]

Too old to change now.

Nah, no you're not Just start chugging them whenever convenient. Althou the health system is 7dtd is pretty decent for that, you'll want to keep almost full health at the cost of bandages, it doesn't really feel like a waste.

I don't really think "what if I need it later" would apply for tools or guns here, you'll have to carry it if you're planning on "needing it", and there's nothing really you can't do with a tier worse thing. No hard caps as it is.

As for losing stuff, well, it's possible, but it isn't all that common outside pvp scenarios designed for that. You drop stuff when you die, you do a corpse run to get it back, only in rare cases can you actually lose stuff that way. And while that threat has been real for you, you haven't stopped carrying your best gear in case you might need it after a death?

 

[Lokeus]

Agree too. Lifetime of tools should fade by time definitely. Also: Mods shouldn`t be removable, you can buy, find and also craft them. Definitely no need for keeping and moving them all the time long. Both steals the game its neat survival mechanic. The beginning of each world is always the most enjoyable part of the game to me, because of lacking this inflation of top items, top mods and so on. But i don`t want complain too much. There are mods and TFP could also include more options to make it possible to play like this. Also zombie spawn rate should be adjustable ingame, max difficulty is just silly after you solved plenty of hours and more zombies create a greater challenge to more experienced players.

 

[Riamus]

Agree too. Lifetime of tools should fade by time definitely. Also: Mods shouldn`t be removable, you can buy, find and also craft them. Definitely no need for keeping and moving them all the time long. Both steals the game its neat survival mechanic. The beginning of each world is always the most enjoyable part of the game to me, because of lacking this inflation of top items, top mods and so on. But i don`t want complain too much. There are mods and TFP could also include more options to make it possible to play like this. Also zombie spawn rate should be adjustable ingame, max difficulty is just silly after you solved plenty of hours and more zombies create a greater challenge to more experienced players.

Why wouldn't you be able to remove a mod?  Take a silencer - In real life, this can be added and removed.  Same for a gun barrel, though with some extra work than a silencer.  Even nails in a bat can be removed even though they leave holes.

 

[Lokeus]

Why wouldn't you be able to remove a mod?  Take a silencer - In real life, this can be added and removed.  Same for a gun barrel, though with some extra work than a silencer.  Even nails in a bat can be removed even though they leave holes.

You are right of course, but for gameplay purpose it would be much more exciting if this option would miss out. Did you ever count amount of mods you got in mid / end game? It is nice to craft cool items to sell, but i don`t think this should be the main use of mods for mid and end game, i mostly ignore them in progressed game

 

[Riamus]

You are right of course, but for gameplay purpose it would be much more exciting if this option would miss out. Did you ever count amount of mods you got in mid / end game? It is nice to craft cool items to sell, but i don`t think this should be the main use of mods for mid and end game, i mostly ignore them in progressed game

By late game, almost everything is just something to sell.  Ammo and base repair resources are really the only things that I actually use late game.  Everything else just gets sold of piles up in chests.  By that point, it's really a good time to think about a new game than trying to find ways to make use of the stuff that isn't being used, though.  And in early game, this leaves you with a choice of holding onto that mod you like for a very long time rather than putting it on something and using it just because you don't want to waste it on a lower level item.  I suppose some people like being forced to make that kind of choice but it really doesn't interest me.

 

[Lokeus]

By that point, it's really a good time to think about a new game than trying to find ways to make use of the stuff that isn't being used, though. 

It wouldn`t be a time to think about that if the game forces you to just keep collecting some more things in late game to survive. I also like to start a new game because it is just boring to see rising a steel base only made with one tool. This as senseless as my idea to lock mods into items of course. We both start a new game because we know that there is no more to do in the late game and you. In a horde survival game i expect mechanics which force me anytime to think about next source of getting stuff to survive. So infinite durability of food for example makes end game also boring. Doesn`t matter how experienced i am in late game, my player character should never be able to repair everything in the game into perfect state. This game definitely need more consumption, also on vehicles. At the same time it should give you more options to be mobile, not only by trying to fix cars standing around, but also using skateboards or roller skates instead of bicycle. The immersion would win a lot by always finding new ways to survive. There are a lot of options right now, but transience should be the core of the game to let you having fun in only one game for a very very long time. But yes i can understand too if players disagree as they just want to get in a state of halfgods, it`s fun too, but then... you stop playing because it gets boring.

 

[meganoth]

By late game, almost everything is just something to sell.  Ammo and base repair resources are really the only things that I actually use late game.  Everything else just gets sold of piles up in chests.  By that point, it's really a good time to think about a new game than trying to find ways to make use of the stuff that isn't being used, though.  And in early game, this leaves you with a choice of holding onto that mod you like for a very long time rather than putting it on something and using it just because you don't want to waste it on a lower level item.  I suppose some people like being forced to make that kind of choice but it really doesn't interest me.

Even if you want to "save up" some mod for that special weapon I am pretty sure you would install it into your low-level weapon as soon as you have found a second one. Because then you still have one left for that special weapon.

 

[BFT2020]

By late game, almost everything is just something to sell.  Ammo and base repair resources are really the only things that I actually use late game.  Everything else just gets sold of piles up in chests.  By that point, it's really a good time to think about a new game than trying to find ways to make use of the stuff that isn't being used, though.  And in early game, this leaves you with a choice of holding onto that mod you like for a very long time rather than putting it on something and using it just because you don't want to waste it on a lower level item.  I suppose some people like being forced to make that kind of choice but it really doesn't interest me.

It might just surprise you.  At the tail end of A20, I had (in my mod) removed the ability to repair items and removed the ability to remove mods from items.  It does force you to make choices, but I found the gameplay more intense and a lot more consequences.  Now you can't just put the mod into an item you find while looting to free up that spot, unless you want to keep it in that item in the first place.  You end up having to replace items constantly so you have to choose where you are going to put your parts and resources.  I sacrifice creating T3 gear just to save up on steel and iron for base upgrades.

And you start keeping those extra mods you find while looting because you know you are going to need it later.