PC This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers.

[Jost Amman]

Guys, please stop! Or I'll need to go out and buy diapers!  ound:

 

[Maharin]

Anal retentive versus anal repulsive?

 

[youcantgetridofme]

So what about you pushing buttons again and again. You have been provocative all the time and especially in that last paragraph above. I gave you a simple recipe at the start of our discussion what to do and you never followed that.

Pushing buttons? Wow. OK. So I best speak how you want me to speak I guess. I followed the rules or so I thought, but clearly I have broken them according to your statement. I must do what you say I must do or else. It's clear.

If you had you might have reason to complain or not, but you never even put the system to the test ! Like a high priest of the church of Reach you just follow your believe and everyone else is a heretic.

Says you. You know it all.

So Roland should somehow with his cognitive abilities know you had problems with the forum software and know what you wanted to say in posts you never posted? Unlike Reach he isn't a god . He can't read your posts in some parallel dimension where you were able to post something you didn't on this forum.

Well, maybe y'all should fix your forum, modernise and streamline it better so it's not a pile of archaic dog poo design.

To me the games finish line is well in sight. The sermon changed from "it'll be done when its done" into "Bandits and Story -> Done". That still isn't a date but it is more concrete than it ever was. If we don't see any progress on bandits in A21 then you actually have grounds for being disappointed.

Uhuh. If you say so. Been hearing this crap for years. Just another pattern.

I have never seen better animations from indie devs with smaller teams in a fully destroyable voxel game of this graphics quality. Why? Because it is the only one I know of. Can it be better? We don't know. Even TFP does not know. It is awfully hard to know what exactly is possible at all with unlimited resources and world-best genius programmers.

We only will know for sure when actually someone brings out a comparable voxel game with better animations and graphics that still runs on CPUs from 2012.

"I haven't seen anything better so this is the best!" A personal opinion. Nothing more. Means nothing. i could use examples, but it wouldn't matter anyways because you have your mind set already and nothing will change it. But your opinion is paramount, right? Yet another pattern.

Even if we accept that TFP did a lot of mistakes (and it is no problem to do that, remember the proverb "He who makes no mistakes makes nothing") they still were the only ones in the industry that tried their hands on a fully destroyable voxel-world game and succeeded in keeping many players happy for 8 years now. Experimentation is done everywhere in games development, but mostly behind closed doors. And still many many games are killed in development before release, before you even hear about them. But now they should kneel before any armchair critic who thinks he knows better and proclaims that experimentation must be a sign of problems. Sure.

Stop right there. They are not the only ones in the world who have made a fully destructable voxel game. That is a straight up lie that can be proven wrong just with Minecraft alone. Fanatical defence patterns are no stranger to this community either. You just proved that.

Lots of passive anger going on here

No anger from me. Just having a conversation. Just because some people are straight shooters and don't beat around bushes doesn't mean there's anger in the discussion. Now if you said there was lots of passive trolling, insults and belittlement and teaming to do so, I would tend to agree.

You tried on steam or where? this doesn't matter. This matter only what you are writing here. You are rude (absolut power, fanatics etc) to them so they joke about your nickname.

They redone a lot of things too many times that's true. But animations looks good

To you maybe. Some people have lower standards than others when it comes to how things look whether it be in video games or outside of video gaming.

But graphic level is much better that in A11 period - so some things like models etc was worthy to redone again. Just redone systems like perks etc. is mistake

You forgot the parts where they modify the game to stop people from playing how they want to. They've repeated this mistake to only push some players away. They see someone playing in a way they don't like and they waste time 'fixing' it thus slowing down the overall progressive development of the game itself. Wasting time - one big pattern TFP have never gotten over.

Lighthearted teasing. Misdiagnosed. Fixed mindset unable to see any other possibilities.

Sure, it's fine if you're the one doing it with no risks since you're basically forum god. We out here have to watch what we say. You can say and do anything you want here.

Your nickname is a joke or if not it is a challenge or a focal point for what you want to discuss. You opened the door for nickname commentary by choosing the one you did. I can help you change it if you don't want to come across as someone whose name is daring anyone to interact with you. Maybe if you had that name but your posts were chill but none of your posts have been chill. Speaking of repeating patterns-- aggressiveness.

Roland, you don't get it and you likely never will. You're so off the mark it's crazy. I'm not being aggressive. Maybe that's just your interpretation. Maybe you're taking everything too personal and are assuming there is aggression. I assure you there's no aggression. I just cut to the chase. Some people can't appreciate that and expect candies, rainbows and sunshine rays to shower down upon them so they don't become offended. This is a pattern most of the PR and you perpetuate. Don't like someone? Create a narrative, a situation, stir the pot and get rid of who you don't want around. It's what happened on Steam and it's a pattern that's visible in the board history.

Your problem is that you came here @%$#ed off.

Assumptions, assumptions and more assumptions. History repeats. Patterns. If you must know, that wasn't the reason I came here. I came here to be involved. Should I get !$!#$ed off?

I don't treat you differently than anyone else and I'm not @%$#ing off that many people.

That is your opinion. You might think you don't, but you do.

don't use "off topic" as an excuse. I'm using my vulgar display of power to say that it is on topic.

I didn't go off topic. I simply explained my situation on Steam as a pattern that can be lumped in with the bad patterns Reach Gaming was discussing. Some people didn't like that. Not my fault. 

I will forbear joking with you and keep things serious in all my responses from now on since that seems to be what you want.

Jokes aren't a problem. The problem is how you went about it with the current situation and circumstances. Sometimes jokes are in good taste in the right situations. Sometimes they are not.

I gave a a truthful response earlier in the thread and gave evidence for why Reach's speculations were off the mark.

Your truth. Honestly, it really doesn't matter what anyone says out here it'll be met with the same defensive responses all TFP reps give. X person is wrong and we are right. TFP are always right. We never falter or make mistakes. TFP are perfect. We have nothing to learn because we know it all. Our truth is above the highest enlightenment.

Reach Gaming's points are right and the patterns are real. You don't want to see the validity in his views and want or expect all us out here to believe a context and narrative you want people to believe. Of course Schwanz9000 replied to Reach Gaming. Can't have that kind of negative truth without some sort of defence. I also see people asked questions and were ignored. Is this strange this happens? No. It's a pattern.

 

[theFlu]

Your truth. Honestly, it really doesn't matter what anyone says out here it'll be met with the same defensive responses all TFP reps give. X person is wrong and we are right. TFP are always right. We never falter or make mistakes. TFP are perfect. We have nothing to learn because we know it all. Our truth is above the highest enlightenment.

There's this handy contraption, made of glass and silver.. invented pretty recently, but I'm sure you might have heard of it.

 

[Matt115]

It doesn't matter to you because it hasn't happened to you. Talk is cheap and your talk is cheaper than a 1 cent candy. Don't like the words? Your problem. Fans are fans. Sorry. That's just how it works. When someone loves something a lot they are a fanatic or fan of it. Calling someone a fanatic isn't an insult or rude at all. It's a descriptive word to describe a level of like someone has for something. Some could say I'm a fanatic of games. Do I see it as an insult? Of course not. How you choose to perceive the meaning of words is on you. If you choose to take offence, that's on you. I care nothing about nickname jokes.

To you maybe. Some people have lower standards than others when it comes to how things look whether it be in video games or outside of video gaming.

You forgot the parts where they modify the game to stop people from playing how they want to. They've repeated this mistake to only push some players away. They see someone playing in a way they don't like and they waste time 'fixing' it thus slowing down the overall progressive development of the game itself. Wasting time - one big pattern fTFP have never gotten over.

It  hasn't happend to me because i'm trying to be nice? Just this is all i do - i'm nice.  I often have argue with Roland and Meganoth. Well usually we have diffrent point of view about this game and TFP's decisions. Fanatic is something bigger that Fan for example : Fan - i love this Actor she is co cute aww ^^. Fanatic - i have 100 pictures of her in my houses and  i spend every free moment to watch movies with her. 

So yes: it's insulting. At least in this context - ofc you can say this a joke or ironical but in most situation it's  insulting.

This can be shocking but : do you know that racers games have usually the best graphic while RTS much worsts? Check Colin Mc rally and total war medieval  So yes 7dtd don't have Naughty Dog' Uncharted or Focus's A plague tale. But do you have full destroable worlds in this games? No - so you have to choice - animations graphic etc or gameplay.

I agree- they prevent people to play how they want to but other hand- this is PVP game too right? If this game would be Clear SP - probably they would say just "nah" but - if something is too OP or UP has to be buffed or debuffed. This is called balance of gameplay.

That is your opinion. You might think you don't, but you do.

I didn't go off topic. I simply explained my situation on Steam as a pattern that can be lumped in with the bad patterns Reach Gaming was discussing. Some people didn't like that. Not my fault. 

Still you don't show screens etc. Again.

 

[meganoth]

Pushing buttons? Wow. OK. So I best speak how you want me to speak I guess. I followed the rules or so I thought, but clearly I have broken them according to your statement. I must do what you say I must do or else. It's clear.

"Broken the rules"? Nonsense. At least if you are speaking about forum rules, you obviously have not. You would know if you seriously broke some rule.

But apart from that it is really tiring talking to you while you constantly speak about yourself getting banned or mistreated. You talking about you as the eternal victim, that's a pattern.

Says you. You know it all.

Well, maybe y'all should fix your forum, modernise and streamline it better so it's not a pile of archaic dog poo design.

Uhuh. If you say so. Been hearing this crap for years. Just another pattern.

"I haven't seen anything better so this is the best!" A personal opinion. Nothing more. Means nothing. i could use examples, but it wouldn't matter anyways because you have your mind set already and nothing will change it. But your opinion is paramount, right? Yet another pattern.

Stop right there. They are not the only ones in the world who have made a fully destructable voxel game. That is a straight up lie that can be proven wrong just with Minecraft alone. Fanatical defence patterns are no stranger to this community either. You just proved that.

This is why I said "a fully destroyable voxel game of this graphics quality". I consider Minecraft to be a lot easier case to make performant.

No anger from me. Just having a conversation. Just because some people are straight shooters and don't beat around bushes doesn't mean there's anger in the discussion. Now if you said there was lots of passive trolling, insults and belittlement and teaming to do so, I would tend to agree.

It doesn't matter to you because it hasn't happened to you. Talk is cheap and your talk is cheaper than a 1 cent candy. Don't like the words? Your problem. Fans are fans. Sorry. That's just how it works. When someone loves something a lot they are a fanatic or fan of it. Calling someone a fanatic isn't an insult or rude at all. It's a descriptive word to describe a level of like someone has for something. Some could say I'm a fanatic of games. Do I see it as an insult? Of course not. How you choose to perceive the meaning of words is on you. If you choose to take offence, that's on you. I care nothing about nickname jokes.

To you maybe. Some people have lower standards than others when it comes to how things look whether it be in video games or outside of video gaming.

You forgot the parts where they modify the game to stop people from playing how they want to. They've repeated this mistake to only push some players away. They see someone playing in a way they don't like and they waste time 'fixing' it thus slowing down the overall progressive development of the game itself. Wasting time - one big pattern fTFP have never gotten over.

Sure, it's fine if you're the one doing it with no risks since you're basically forum god. We out here have to watch what we say. You can say and do anything you want here.

Roland, you don't get it and you likely never will. You're so off the mark it's crazy. I'm not being aggressive. Maybe that's just your interpretation. Maybe you're taking everything too personal and are assuming there is aggression. I assure you there's no aggression. I just cut to the chase. Some people can't appreciate that and expect candies, rainbows and sunshine rays to shower down upon them so they don't become offended. This is a pattern most of the PR and you perpetuate. Don't like someone? Create a narrative, a situation, stir the pot and get rid of who you don't want around. It's what happened on Steam and it's a pattern that's visible in the board history.

Assumptions, assumptions and more assumptions. History repeats. Patterns. If you must know, that wasn't the reason I came here. I came here to be involved. I guess 

That is your opinion. You might think you don't, but you do.

I didn't go off topic. I simply explained my situation on Steam as a pattern that can be lumped in with the bad patterns Reach Gaming was discussing. Some people didn't like that. Not my fault. 

Jokes aren't a problem. The problem is how you went about it with the current situation and circumstances. Sometimes jokes are in good taste in the right situations. Sometimes they are not.

Your truth. Honestly, it really doesn't matter what anyone says out here it'll be met with the same defensive responses all TFP reps give. X person is wrong and we are right. TFP are always right. We never falter or make mistakes. TFP are perfect. We have nothing to learn because we know it all. Our truth is above the highest enlightenment.

Reach Gaming's points are right and the patterns are real. You don't want to see the validity in his views and want or expect all us out here to believe a context and narrative you want people to believe. Of course Schwanz9000 replied to Reach Gaming. Can't have that kind of negative truth without some sort of defence. I also see people asked questions and were ignored. Is this strange this happens? No. It's a pattern.

Ah, yes, the "Reach is right" speech at the end of every post and "it's all a pattern" pattern. I don't think there is any sense in me disturbing you in your pattern of endlessly posting the same patterns. Happy pattern posting.

Still you don't show screens etc. Again.

He can't. This would be breaking forum rules. He would have to contact a moderator directly and tell him what happened.

 

[Matt115]

Your truth. Honestly, it really doesn't matter what anyone says out here it'll be met with the same defensive responses all TFP reps give. X person is wrong and we are right. TFP are always right. We never falter or make mistakes. TFP are perfect. We have nothing to learn because we know it all. Our truth is above the highest enlightenment.

Reach Gaming's points are right and the patterns are real. You don't want to see the validity in his views and want or expect all us out here to believe a context and narrative you want people to believe. Of course Schwanz9000 replied to Reach Gaming. Can't have that kind of negative truth without some sort of defence. I also see people asked questions and were ignored. Is this strange this happens? No. It's a pattern.

No. TFP is not perfect. I think even TFP devs will agree about that. Devs learned a lot for this time. They agree that some thing were mistakes like hornets.

Patterns exists ofc. Like - if you want to give advice what should be added wrote about that in early stage of production. No when game is almost finished. Or if someone don't write exactly what this person want - this "advice" is worthless. Reach Gaming wrote about MP and Reworking game. And it's totaly... useless. Why? this "knowledge" cannot be used- they rework things a lot? Yes. But you can back in time to convice them to not redesing perks or crafting system. No. Plus not so many thing will be change now because TFP want  finish game fast. But what about MP - 7dtd's was added into gamepass - so bugs are happening  Well even skyrim had unque bugs in diffrent platform versions

He can't. This would be breaking forum rules. He would have to contact a moderator directly and tell him what happened.

If he would send this screens on priv to people "connected" with this topic would he break forum rules?

"Broken the rules"? Nonsense. At least if you are speaking about forum rules, you obviously have not. You would know if you seriously broke some rule.

But apart from that it is really tiring talking to you while you constantly speak about yourself getting banned or mistreated. You talking about you as the eternal victim, that's a pattern.

Ah, yes, the "Reach is right" speech at the end of every post and "it's all a pattern" pattern. I don't think there is any sense in me disturbing you in your pattern of endlessly posting the same patterns. Happy pattern posting.

So we can both agree that he have pattern about talking about patterns

 

[meganoth]

If he would send this screens on priv to people "connected" with this topic would he break forum rules?

Read the forum rules and you'll know.

 

[ktr]

The whole basis of his take on the Pimps work and progress is that they dont seem to know what they're doing or what they want. That original content integration is now at a full stop because the Pimps dont have anything else to offer than the remaining Bandits. That multi-player is a mess and that they dont know how to conduct and fix it.

I mean that game's not perfect but for an indie studio, to have fared so far and still having success while being stale in regards of creativity (apparently), i'd say its pretty remarkable.

What do you guys think?

I guess I would ask first why anyone's opinion would make you facepalm?

There is some validity in the point that maybe bandits are the only thing new or exciting to come.  Oh, we're re-doing water again because apparently water became too easy to get. Okay. There was a simpler solution to that problem than essentially creating another problem with the water collectors. People will simply make enough water collectors to suit SP or group needs.  It adds nothing to this game than an arbitrary step that is exciting on the first play through, but redundant and boring on subsequent play throughs. Awesome, for a group of  4, we now have to look at collecting enough materials to build 8 water collectors ASAP so we can do the other things in the game that we want to do. Bodies of water are now even more meaningless than they were before because you cannot collect water from a river.

That bears repeating - unlike the majority of other survival games out there, the player cannot collect and refine water from water sources. Might as well remove bodies of water from the game entirely except as decorative objects.  Yes, yes, I know, you can get the water refiner mod and drink from any body of water at will. Was this change made just to give that mod relevance? That would be a poor choice.

Water was fine as it was. Easy to get, but provided no real benefits.  This game is not Green Hell where the basic need for food and water is the central gameplay.  Central game play is dealing with the zombies and the zombie hordes. Which means that food and water will always have to be easy enough to get for the player to have time to prepare for horde night.

New progression system - why?  Literally WHY? From what I can tell, it boils down to 'well, people were skipping over progression steps'. To that I say, so what? Stone tools are a pain in the ass. Their lower stamina use does not replace time spent using them. The fun of base tools and weapons for me in SP was having to make decisions about how to use better things that found effectively when I couldn't make them.  Now, I'll have a harder time finding better things and making them is even..... harder? Sound like fun.

New progression because people where skipping steps? I mean, yes, I skipped steps because the loot tables gave me no other choice. I always found better stuff WAY WAY WAY before I had the parts to craft them. That's a loot table problem, not a progression system problem.  A problem that the new progression system doesn't address.  I now have to read x number of books to craft y.... but still don't have enough parts to it.  Sounds fun.

TL'DR don't poo poo this dude's opinion when problems that aren't problems are being made into problems and problems that are problems may just be made worse while giving us potentially nothing new to engage with.

 

[Jost Amman]

There is some validity in the point that maybe bandits are the only thing new or exciting to come. 

Yes. But that's the point of the *facepalm* IMO. When I read/hear that I think "Duh!? Of course! The game is nearly finished... what do you expect??"

Oh, we're re-doing water again because apparently water became too easy to get. Okay. There was a simpler solution to that problem than essentially creating another problem with the water collectors. People will simply make enough water collectors to suit SP or group needs.  It adds nothing to this game than an arbitrary step that is exciting on the first play through, but redundant and boring on subsequent play throughs. Awesome, for a group of  4, we now have to look at collecting enough materials to build 8 water collectors ASAP so we can do the other things in the game that we want to do. Bodies of water are now even more meaningless than they were before because you cannot collect water from a river.

Except that, this is your personal opinion... and why would that count more than a thought through, discussed, analyzed and balanced assessment from the devs of this game?

You say this new water system adds nothing, but how many hours of A21 did you play? None. QA testers and devs, instead, are currently playing and experimenting A21 gameplay and can see what's working and what's not. They're doing their best (hopefully) to make it interesting and fun.

At this point, it boils down to those who trust TFP will do a good job, and those who don't trust them.

But that's opinions, it's not a "rational" argument, so everyone's opinion counts zero, and we need to wait for A21 to be released and see.

 

[Jost Amman]

That bears repeating - unlike the majority of other survival games out there, the player cannot collect and refine water from water sources. Might as well remove bodies of water from the game entirely except as decorative objects.  Yes, yes, I know, you can get the water refiner mod and drink from any body of water at will. Was this change made just to give that mod relevance? That would be a poor choice.

There's also vitamins that render you immune to dysentery for a while.

Water was fine as it was. Easy to get, but provided no real benefits.  This game is not Green Hell where the basic need for food and water is the central gameplay.  Central game play is dealing with the zombies and the zombie hordes. Which means that food and water will always have to be easy enough to get for the player to have time to prepare for horde night.

Water was not "easy", it was (is in A20) ridiculous! You could literally solve the water problem forever on day 1/2.

Is that the survival gameplay you want? I don't.

New progression system - why?  Literally WHY? From what I can tell, it boils down to 'well, people were skipping over progression steps'. To that I say, so what? Stone tools are a pain in the ass. Their lower stamina use does not replace time spent using them. The fun of base tools and weapons for me in SP was having to make decisions about how to use better things that found effectively when I couldn't make them.  Now, I'll have a harder time finding better things and making them is even..... harder? Sound like fun.

Because having all high-end stuff in the game by week 2 sounds fun to you?

 

[ktr]

Yes. But that's the point of the *facepalm* IMO. When I read/hear that I think "Duh!? Of course! The game is nearly finished... what do you expect??"

Except that, this is your personal opinion... and why would that count more than a thought through, discussed, analyzed and balanced assessment from the devs of this game?

You say this new water system adds nothing, but how many hours of A21 did you play? None. QA testers and devs, instead, are currently playing and experimenting A21 gameplay and can see what's working and what's not. They're doing their best (hopefully) to make it interesting and fun.

At this point, it boils down to those who trust TFP will do a good job, and those who don't trust them.

But that's opinions, it's not a "rational" argument, so everyone's opinion counts zero, and we need to wait for A21 to be released and see.

I suck at breaking up quotes, so I ask your forgiveness.

I can see your point on the bandits, except for one thing - bandits aren't a guarantee in this Alpha at this point. Maybe they'll happen, maybe they get pushed off to 22, which does present a problem when you consider the other changes.

Of course, everything is a personal opinion. My status as a tester for Alpha 21 or not doesn't matter.  That is an appeal to authority fallacy. I can tell you as someone who has played a huge breadth of survival games and watch about a dozen different streamers/you tubers that player even more survival games than I play, that players, in general, tend to skip the food and water stress as fast as they can except in games that are specifically designed to put those aspects at the core of gameplay. Those games typically don't have dozens or more enemies pounding on your doorstep at a regular interval with no recourse to avoid it. 
 

Of course, that is an appeal to authority too.

What we are all doing here is discussing our opinions.  You choice to place your trust and that's fine.  I choose to express my dissent.  The difference is that you choose to poo poo any opinion as not rational, which you cannot in good faith say one way or another.  What I do know is that my gaming group will try Alpha 21, but are already showing signs of not caring at all about these changes and since my group has shrunk from 10 active players to 2-4, the forecast is not good.

Maybe for TFPs that will be fine in the end.  They've done a good job for what has been a labor of love for them and I wish them the best.  Still doesn't mean I think that my sudden inability to boil water but can drink it through a magical filter is a good choice.

 

[Jost Amman]

New progression because people where skipping steps? I mean, yes, I skipped steps because the loot tables gave me no other choice. I always found better stuff WAY WAY WAY before I had the parts to craft them. That's a loot table problem, not a progression system problem.  A problem that the new progression system doesn't address.  I now have to read x number of books to craft y.... but still don't have enough parts to it.  Sounds fun.

You're missing the point.

Firstly, they're ALSO adjusting loot tables in A21 and balancing them to follow your progression more naturally.

Second, the new crafting system DOES address those problems:

• BEFORE: you had to heavily perk into an attribute if also wanted to craft higher quality and tier stuff connected to that attribute (e.g.: strength->shotguns)
  
• NOW (A21): you can craft stuff from ANY attribute tree, as long as you learn from magazines, without having to perk into that attribute.
  
• NOW (A21): you'll find MORE magazines, but ALSO parts, if you specialize into something (e.g.: Perk into shotguns and you'll find more shotgun magazines).
  

Hope this clarifies some things you got wrong on the new features.

 

[ktr]

There's also vitamins that render you immune to dysentery for a while.

Water was not "easy", it was (is in A20) ridiculous! You could literally solve the water problem forever on day 1/2.

Is that the survival gameplay you want? I don't.

Because having all high-end stuff in the game by week 2 sounds fun to you?

Water was easy since I started playing in 13? Maybe sooner.  It took maybe two days to not have to worry about water.  I have played NO survival game where I couldn't negate the need for water within 7 days of system play (not IRL play).

If you're getting "all high-end stuff" by week 2, I can only ask what settings are you playing?? Never had that happen in SP or MP except maybe in the days of LBD in a large-ish group. 

 

[Jost Amman]

What we are all doing here is discussing our opinions.  You choice to place your trust and that's fine.  I choose to express my dissent.  The difference is that you choose to poo poo any opinion as not rational, which you cannot in good faith say one way or another. 

I have to apologize. I used the wrong word there... I should have said "uninformed" opinion.

Meaning that no matter how many games you've played or for how long, neither you, nor I, have played or tested A21 to have an informed opinion on its gameplay. 

If you're getting "all high-end stuff" by week 2, I can only ask what settings are you playing?? Never had that happen in SP or MP except maybe in the days of LBD in a large-ish group. 

Min-maxers (not me), do that all the time and come on the forums (on Steam mainly) to brag about that!  

 

[ktr]

You're missing the point.

Firstly, they're ALSO adjusting loot tables in A21 and balancing them to follow your progression more naturally.

Second, the new crafting system DOES address those problems:

• BEFORE: you had to heavily perk into an attribute if also wanted to craft higher quality and tier stuff connected to that attribute (e.g.: strength->shotguns)
  
• NOW (A21): you can craft stuff from ANY attribute tree, as long as you learn from magazines, without having to perk into that attribute.
  
• NOW (A21): you'll find MORE magazines, but ALSO parts, if you specialize into something (e.g.: Perk into shotguns and you'll find more shotgun magazines).
  

Hope this clarifies some things you got wrong on the new features.

Nah, I think you're missing my point, which is sad because I thought this might be a fun discussion of the new features.

I'm not going to trust "they're adjusting loot tables" because I've heard that promise for the last 4 Alphas.  Maybe they'll get it this time? Maybe not.

You haven't clarified anything except perhaps your bias for the Alpha, but props to you for the unnecessary aggression.

I have to apologize. I used the wrong word there... I should have said "uninformed" opinion.

Meaning that no matter how many games you've played or for how long, neither you, nor I, have played or tested A21 to have an informed opinion on its gameplay. 

Min-maxers (not me), do that all the time and come on the forums (on Steam mainly) to brag about that!  

Then if you do not have informed opinion, you cannot tell me what this Alpha will contain, right?

I don't care about min-maxers because that can mean a breadth of things in games like this. I'm an accountant.  I run numbers.

I have to apologize. I used the wrong word there... I should have said "uninformed" opinion.

Meaning that no matter how many games you've played or for how long, neither you, nor I, have played or tested A21 to have an informed opinion on its gameplay. 

Min-maxers (not me), do that all the time and come on the forums (on Steam mainly) to brag about that!  

Interesting that you choose to downvote my response.  Good luck to you.

 

[Jost Amman]

You haven't clarified anything except perhaps your bias for the Alpha, but props to you for the unnecessary aggression.

I don't see how that was aggressive. I was just clarifying something about the new "Learn by Looting" system that you clearly misunderstood.

If you feel offended because you don't want to be corrected on something you clearly got wrong, that's on you.

Then if you do not have informed opinion, you cannot tell me what this Alpha will contain, right?

I have an informed opinion about everything the devs have explained about the new features, and I can correct you on that when you're wrong.

I don't know how A21 will play out, but as said, I choose to trust what some QA testers and some devs have said about how they feel A21 gameplay is.

You, on the contrary, don't even have an indirect account of how A21 gameplay is, so my A21 gameplay opinion is at least a bit more informed than yours.

I don't care about min-maxers because that can mean a breadth of things in games like this. I'm an accountant.  I run numbers.

Well, as an accountant you should know that, when your numbers are wrong, there's no shame having to correct them.  

But I see that, as many other players who come here and pretend to want a discussion, you already made up your mind about me, so I'll leave you to your thoughts.

 

[ktr]

I don't see how that was aggressive. I was just clarifying something about the new "Learn by Looting" system that you clearly misunderstood.

If you feel offended because you don't want to be corrected on something you clearly got wrong, that's on you.

I have an informed opinion about everything the devs have explained about the new features, and I can correct you on that when you're wrong.

I don't know how A21 will play out, but as said, I choose to trust what some QA testers and some devs have said about how they feel A21 gameplay is.

You, on the contrary, don't even have an indirect account of how A21 gameplay is, so my A21 gameplay opinion is at least a bit more informed than yours.

Well, as an accountant you should know that, when your numbers are wrong, there's no shame having to correct them.  

But I see that, as many other players who come here and pretend to want a discussion, you already made up your mind about me, so I'll leave you to your thoughts.

 Here we go.  "Clearly misunderstood".  You have absolutely no basis to make this claim, but you do it anyway.  You assume that I'm offended, which, btw, implies your offensive to my comments. You are coming at me as if you understand me, while I approach you as someone that I am trying to understand.  In case I need to point it out, the error here is on you.

I have also informed my opinion by what the devs have explained. The difference is that I disagree with their conclusions and you do not. I am willing to allow your lack of disagreement while you are not willing to even entertain my disagreement. People can be wrong. I am willing to admit that I can be wrong.  You are not willing to entertain the idea that the devs and testers can be. BTW testers look for bugs, things that aren't working up to specs. (Hint: I know this because I do software and config testing every other week) that doesn't mean they're 'experts' on gameplay.

 As far as my knowledge of the Alpha, you don't know anymore than I do unless you're suddenly going to out yourself as dev.  Are you?

I correct numbers all the time. Usually from other people's mistakes

 

[Jost Amman]

I have also informed my opinion by what the devs have explained.

I now have to read x number of books to craft y.... but still don't have enough parts to it.  Sounds fun.

Dude, drop it. You got it wrong, and I explained why.

I understand now you're one of those types who think facts and truth don't exist, because everyone can make up their own.

There's no point discussing with people with such a mindset. Now please, make up more random stuff to explain why "your truth" is better than facts and what the developers of this game know because of hands-on experience. Please, make my day.

Here we go.  "Clearly misunderstood".  You have absolutely no basis to make this claim, but you do it anyway. 

The difference is that I disagree with their conclusions and you do not. I am willing to allow your lack of disagreement while you are not willing to even entertain my disagreement. People can be wrong. I am willing to admit that I can be wrong.  You are not willing to entertain the idea that the devs and testers can be. BTW testers look for bugs, things that aren't working up to specs. (Hint: I know this because I do software and config testing every other week) that doesn't mean they're 'experts' on gameplay.

You're clearly twisting my words... I didn't say you're wrong about how you'd feel about A21, I said you're wrong about what the devs said about the new features, and/or you misunderstood them.

You're hunting for a fallacy in my statements so that you can blame me of being arrogant and biased, but you actually didn't even understand what I was referring to, so you defaulted to "you don't accept my opinion".

If your opinion is that water is dry, you're wrong.

If your opinion is that you won't have enough parts to craft with the new system, you're wrong, because the devs told you that perking into something will have you find more magazines AND parts of that specialization. So, no, that's not an opinion, it is a fact.

 

[meganoth]

Dude, drop it. You got it wrong, and I explained why.

I understand now you're one of those types who think facts and truth don't exist, because everyone can make up their own.

There's no point discussing with people with such a mindset. Now please, make up more random stuff to explain why "your truth" is better than facts and what the developers of this game know because of hands-on experience. Please, make my day.

You're clearly twisting my words... I didn't say you're wrong about how you'd feel about A21, I said you're wrong about what the devs said about the new features, and/or you misunderstood them.

You're hunting for a fallacy in my statements so that you can blame me of being arrogant and biased, but you actually didn't even understand what I was referring to, so you defaulted to "you don't accept my opinion".

If your opinion is that water is dry, you're wrong.

If your opinion is that you won't have enough parts to craft with the new system, you're wrong, because the devs told you that perking into something will have you find more magazines AND parts of that specialization. So, no, that's not an opinion, it is a fact.

"find more ... parts of that specialization". Can you cite a source for this? I don't remember this having been explicitely said, but I do have a bad memory.

I fully expect this to eventually happen or the number of parts needed for crafting getting reduced (which would have somewhat the same effect) as part of balancing. But was that information already leaked for A21?