The return of old POIs?

[zztong]

I can imagine its alot of work. Especially for a singular person, but you do need to consider that they do have a team of developers unlike mod creators. With that being said, its definitely a ton of work and obviously wouldnt be done in a shirt amount of time.

When it comes to POIs, a POI modder has the exact same tools as TFP. We literally use their tools. Oddly enough, I can make a POI faster as I don't have to match their internal style guide, quality process, and I want to finish a Tier 1 POI in 4-8 hours of work. They're actually slower on an hour-by-hour basis because they take their time to get high quality, they have internal reviews, and more. They have playtesters. I don't, so while their POIs might get dozens of hours of playtesting, mine go into production with maybe an hour of testing and my users find many of the bugs.

But think about it, they have a loyal player base already that even though the fun pimps havent listened to them in the past, we still come back every major update. If they announced that they are working on what I recommended and they created a fundraiser type thing for it, hundreds of people would donate to help them achieve it.

This is an interesting collection of opinions that I don't share.

I think TFP does listen. I think they get, and have gotten, a lot of praise for the quality of their POIs. I don't think a fundraiser would (1) help because I can't see a business being willing to add staff based on one-time donations and (2) people are already hostile to appearance-only DLCs.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I think TFP does listen.

If I may add, thanks Michal.ak for just stating your desire and being willing to discuss whether it's worthwhile. I don't think it is, mostly because even dungeon crawl style POIs don't have to be played that way, but with only a handful of exceptions, I've rarely seen a community be more vicious to the developers of a game they swear they love than this community is to TFP. I understand the equally legitimate desires of both old timers and newcomers, sandboxers and RPG players, but that's a rift I'm fairly convinced is unbridgeable at this point despite TFP having bent over backwards to try and accommodate both groups.

 

[Michal.ak]

If I may add, thanks Michal.ak for just stating your desire and being willing to discuss whether it's worthwhile. I don't think it is, mostly because even dungeon crawl style POIs don't have to be played that way, but with only a handful of exceptions, I've rarely seen a community be more vicious to the developers of a game they swear they love than this community is to TFP. I understand the equally legitimate desires of both old timers and newcomers, sandboxers and RPG players, but that's a rift I'm fairly convinced is unbridgeable at this point despite TFP having bent over backwards to try and accommodate both groups.

The thing is, as someone stated before, they made alot of POIs that dont really feel like a dungeon style POI. Such being the 0, 1 and 2 stars. But after that, the main loot starts getting surrounded by a hard block or zombie traps that fall all around. I feel like the emersion falls apart there, so in my opinion, its not like they would have to start fresh remaking every single POI. Like instead of the path route in the hotels. They could use a blueprint from lets say the older alphas and put zombie spawns in each room which the older games lacked. Once again I do understand thats easier said than done.

However thats the easy part said, as alot of people said in the replies, TFPs focus on detail and the higher the tier, the higher the detail and I must agree, I wouldnt imagine they would want to remake every single 3+ star more realistic.

Its a big ask and 98% unlikely. But if they were to add this feature, it would bridge the RPG and Survival community together. Just look at the survival revival update and how positively it was taken, steam reviews went from disliked to mixed i believe. It really does show that alot of the community does want it to be more realistic. I'd even say its split 50/50 within the community.

 

[FranticDan]

Quite a number of old POI's are actually in v2. They are barely recognisable. I went into one last week which I think was a T0 but can't remember the name, brought back memories of A16. Army Camp 7 which is a T5 is one of the legacy POI's that has had at least 2 face lifts.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

the main loot starts getting surrounded by a hard block or zombie traps

That's why I think a distribution of loot throughout the POIs more logical than piles of loot in a treasure room people can just as easily break into as get to via a linear route, not that the loot is usually all that great. You might find one highly desirable item or other, but that's pretty rare in itself. I'd hate to be the one charged with redistributing loot through all those POIs, but it would at least put a stop to some of the cheese and provide an incentive to actually go through them.

I get you don't like the dungeon style design, but there are ways around it...sometimes the very next block over, if that's your thing. : )

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Quite a number of old POI's are actually in v2. They are barely recognisable. I went into one last week which I think was a T0 but can't remember the name, brought back memories of A16. Army Camp 7 which is a T5 is one of the legacy POI's that has had at least 2 face lifts.

Latecomer that I am, I recognize the older POIs mostly by the way they look -- lots of breakable blocks, less interesting textures and irregular looking breaks, e.g. holes in the walls that look...er, let's say more mid-nineties video game than they might today.

I availed myself of Army Camp No. 7 at the beginning of a trial run once. It was usually offset as a wilderness tile then and much more easily cleared at the time. Had a little nostalgia for the old version when it suddenly became a tier 5 I probably couldn't clear at level 2 to save my life. Tiers 5 and 6 I probably wouldn't even bother with unless I was in a really good mood that day. I understand, though, they've been made more challenging for groups and that's just fine.

 

[Javabean867]

I mean, if you turn off questing all pois can be done in any path you want. Have a chainsaw/auger go vroom after all. And without a quest the sleepers don't matter.

The 1 thing i want to point out is that without the quests, the current POIs will have the benefit of environmental story telling with their layout. You can see how the last people living there died. Its like a haunted house showing you what happened at the end of the world.

 

[zztong]

I speculate that the heart burn for this issue (paths) and also stealth is the Tier 5 POIs, where TFP pulls out all the stops when it comes to using all of the tools available to them and where they completely take the kid gloves off in terms of nasty traps. It used to be if you wanted the "extreme challenge" POIs, you needed a subset of the CompoPack. The path in those POIs can be quite long.

If my speculation was accurate, alternatives for tier 5 POIs is still a lot of work (those big POIs take a lot of effort), but it also isn't suggesting that 1,000 POIs need an alternative form. It's more like 20.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I speculate that the heart burn for this issue (paths) and also stealth is the Tier 5 POIs, where TFP pulls out all the stops when it comes to using all of the tools available to them and where they completely take the kid gloves off in terms of nasty traps. It used to be if you wanted the "extreme challenge" POIs, you needed a subset of the CompoPack. The path in those POIs can be quite long.

If my speculation was accurate, alternatives for tier 5 POIs is still a lot of work (those big POIs take a lot of effort), but it also isn't suggesting that 1,000 POIs need an alternative form. It's more like 20.

I'm not sure it's just the higher tier POIs being protested, but the (RPG-like) dungeon crawl style the "questable" POIs were turned into. Linear paths and extraordinary emphasis on "meet trader, do odd jobs, progress" not only makes the game world feel closed (and highly repetitive), but belies the fact that it isn't and can still be played nonlinearly, level progression not tied to linear paths through the game -- POIs, traders, biomes or otherwise.

You'd expect linear paths with a RPG that has a strong story line and characterization that leads you here and there by the nose as opposed to a sandbox that allows you to go where ever you want and do whatever you want. Combine them like this and there's bound to be confusion about how it can played. I haven't completely avoided tiers 5 and 6 in testing myself. I'd just have to be in a really good mood to take one on if playing regularly because they're designed for multiplayer and not single player.

 

[Riamus]

I don't really understand why people are so upset about a path in a POI. Yes, it is a path and if you follow it every time, you'll be doing the same thing each time in that POI. However, if it is open, there is still a pretty good chance that you'll end up going the same route each time you go through the POI anyhow. If you can go right or left and you go right the first time through, unless you specifically force yourself to go left the next time, people tend to do the same thing they did before, so will go right again. In the end, are you really seeing a difference or is it "all in your head"? Considering you can already break through most doors really quickly and easily, not to mention the weaker walls, it is already easy to take another path if you choose.

Now, I do think that open POI have a different feel than dungeon POI. But that's more of just a different style rather than something that is inherently better. They could make a dungeon POI that is an entirely different style and it would still be different from other POI. If anyone has played Stu's Zoo POI, that POI is huge, but it has a path to follow. By following that path, you are exploring through the zoo in a way that you'd probably consider doing if it was a real zoo. It also makes the zoo feel even larger because of how the path is set up. It works really well. In comparison, the new tier 5 mine POI is mostly open even if there's technically a path, yet even though it is really large, it just doesn't feel all that big. That's because of the wide open space and how you can skip moving through a lot of it since the zombies will just come to you and a lot of the area can be ignored as it doesn't have anything to really loot anyhow. Don't get me wrong... both are great. But I'm more likely to want to do the zoo than the mine because of how the pathing works rather than just a relatively open layout.

because they're designed for multiplayer and not single player.

I'm not really sure why you feel this way. I play tier 5/6 solo every solo game I play. Sure, they take longer and the rewards are generally not worth doing that instead of just a tier 4 a couple of times. But they are some of the best and most interesting POI in the game. Yes, there are some great lower tier POI as well, but the tier 5s are really well done. Especially the newest ones.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I don't really understand why people are so upset about a path in a POI.

For me, it's not so much about the path, but more about how unbelievable it is that every building in the world somehow ended set up as a defensive fortress of some kind. I get it's a game, but some level of verisimilitude would be nice.

 

[Rotor]

verisimilitude

I rather type this post than go look that up.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I rather type this post than go look that up.

Verisimilitude - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

Verisimilitude means being believable, or having the appearance of being true. You can improve your play by using the sounds and smells of the beach as well as lots of sand to create verisimilitude.

www.vocabulary.com

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I'm not really sure why you feel this way. I play tier 5/6 solo every solo game I play. Sure, they take longer and the rewards are generally not worth doing that instead of just a tier 4 a couple of times. But they are some of the best and most interesting POI in the game. Yes, there are some great lower tier POI as well, but the tier 5s are really well done. Especially the newest ones.

The POIs are the best thing about this game in my estimation. I've often rounded up zombies and led them outside to take them out quicker and before they could do any damage inside just so I could stand back and admire the architecture. ^.^ Could do without the headaches tier 5 and 6 POIs have become, however. Some people find constant bombardment, with zombies or otherwise, tons of fun and even mod their games to have constant enemy spawns because combat alone is apparently or primarily their thing. I certainly don't begrudge them that. If that's their idea of fun, that's their idea of fun. I prefer more variety and nuance myself, i.e. spells of eerie quiet perhaps punctuated by combat, but not the kind of bombardment intervals waves of triggered zombie spawns in higher tier POIs represent now. I can complete them, maybe with a little choke point help from a punch turret or something, but it literally gives me a headache to be in combat mode that long, same as horde night. I don't play video games for "excitement," iow, but have really enjoyed the POIs in this one all the same.

I don't really understand why people are so upset about a path in a POI

Unless I miss my guess, it's the linearity they don't like. One of the strongest features of video games in general has become nonlinearity. That's always been part and parcel of genuine choice and consequence role playing games. Bethesda popularized the "physicality" of it, I think, with their "go where ever you want, do whatever you want" design philosophy although that alone is what BGS games have been reduced to, imo. Go where ever you want -- explore, loot, dismantle, craft, etc. -- but don't expect interesting stories filled with interesting dialogue and characters. You'll need a mod like Interesting NPCs if you want NPCs to be interesting. ; )

Sandboxers want a pure sandbox; RPG players want a RPG with some linearity expected, especially when it comes to a story mode. It's as simple as that, as far as I can tell. Beth successfully managed to pull off both at once for a while with their 1st person open worlds, but have reduced their games to the bare mechanics, afic. I suppose it's possible TFP could pull it off, but I doubt there's any satisfying people who've played the game with detailed systems in place to have those systems simplified as they have been. I think that's where the complaints that TFP is trying to make them play a certain way are coming from despite that they aren't.
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[zztong]

For me, it's not so much about the path, but more about how unbelievable it is that every building in the world somehow ended set up as a defensive fortress of some kind. I get it's a game, but some level of verisimilitude would be nice.

I can go along with this sentiment. The current design makes these tier 0 POIs, for which there are no missions. I wouldn't mind more of those, though there are some players that view these as a waste since there is no mission for them.

I think they call for a different kind of mission. That is, a mission where the goal isn't to clear the place of zombies because there aren't many (if any) zombies there. That would help with the mission repetition problem, but it would really take more than just one more kind of mission.

One idea for a mission at a Tier 0 is to have the player(s) defend it. You activate the mission, the POI resets, and a count-down timer starts. In two minutes the horde attacks. To keep the number of active zombies manageable on a server with players elsewhere, it is waves of 8 zombies. I don't know how long the assault should last. Four game hours? Leave the POI before it is done and you fail. I've no idea if this would be any good, or not.

 

[Rotor]

One idea for a mission at a Tier 0 is to have the player(s) defend it. You activate the mission, the POI resets, and a count-down timer starts. In two minutes the horde attacks.

I don't do missions, but this i might just push me, might just to give a whirl. Mainly because is more in line with the "zombie genre"...... as long was they don't start throwing button cops etc.. At me.

"Make it so #1"

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I can go along with this sentiment. The current design makes these tier 0 POIs, for which there are no missions. I wouldn't mind more of those, though there are some players that view these as a waste since there is no mission for them.

I think they call for a different kind of mission. That is, a mission where the goal isn't to clear the place of zombies because there aren't many (if any) zombies there. That would help with the mission repetition problem, but it would really take more than just one more kind of mission.

One idea for a mission at a Tier 0 is to have the player(s) defend it. You activate the mission, the POI resets, and a count-down timer starts. In two minutes the horde attacks. To keep the number of active zombies manageable on a server with players elsewhere, it is waves of 8 zombies. I don't know how long the assault should last. Four game hours? Leave the POI before it is done and you fail. I've no idea if this would be any good, or not.

Most unpopular opinion of modern gaming, period, bar none: The trader "quests" are anything but quests and neither are most "quests" in the vast majority of video games today. Quests are imaginative adventures filled with mystery and problems to resolve. These are more like Beth's "radiant quests" -- randomized, computerized, pointless bs "stuff to do." I hope I can say that without insulting TFP. It just so happens to be what video games have been reduced to in the industry at large and, with the advent of AI, the randomized, computerized, pointless bs "stuff to do" is bound to become all there is to video games, including supposed choice and consequence RPGs.

"Missions?" I can probably live with that name for them as "missions" has been popularized by military shooters. Doesn't change the fact that they're randomized, computerized, pointless bs "stuff to do," but there we are. Some people like "bounty hunts" and so forth. More power to them, but the studios have lost me with their reduction of art to mechanics alone.

For aesthetic reasons, I'd recommend those "tier 0" POIs remain open structures (which would be closed structures in any other game) that exist for exploration and no "missions" be attached to them. Stand and defend missions could be attached to any "questable" POI existant now along with all the rest -- clear, fetch, clear and fetch, etc. The game world itself, otoh, should make at least a modicum of sense and possess that verisimilitude of which Vaeliorin speaks.

That reminds me: Did a tornado come through Navezgane or was it bombed? One building is standing and pristine, the next is a pile of rubble. That particular aspect of the game world has never made much sense to me.
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[zztong]

That reminds me: Did a tornado come through Navezgane or was it bombed? One building is standing and pristine, the next is a pile of rubble. That particular aspect of the game world has never made much sense to me.

That's the fun of RWG. You would have to hand-place POIs if you wanted a consistent story for any area of a map.

There's lots of quirks with the world. Some are done for story reasons. For instance, electricity. How long ago was the apocalypse? Because electrical services would have gone down in a matter of a few days.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

That's the fun of RWG. You would have to hand-place POIs if you wanted a consistent story for any area of a map.

There's lots of quirks with the world. Some are done for story reasons. For instance, electricity. How long ago was the apocalypse? Because electrical services would have gone down in a matter of a few days.

RWG is understandably random, though not as random as it used to be. (Random traders, large cities allowed in all biomes, etc.) I can't help but think, correctly or not, the drive against RWG randomness (biome "progression," fixed traders, etc.) is due to the upcoming story mode, which I hope will be set off to itself somehow, either confined to the Navezgane map or a story mode layered over all the maps. I don't have a stake in it either way, but I'd think the Duke's and Noah's compounds, at least, could be guaranteed to appear even in RWG maps, which would allow for a minor "story mode" like those you see in some survival games while still keeping the randomness in RWG. I've heard it said that RWG is the best it's ever been, but I disagree. Aside from the inevitable roads that starkly slope off right in the middle and various other bugginess, it's the lockdown of traders and the veritable insistence that players move from biome to biome rather than picking a home biome and dipping in and out that has the community suddenly in an uproar about them. Unless I miss my guess, it's again the feeling of being herded through a linear path to which many are taking exception, again insisting "TFP is trying to make us play their way." It's how it feels much more than how it is that leads to such perceptions or misperceptions, as the case may be, imo.

 

[zztong]

I can't help but think, correctly or not, the drive against RWG randomness (biome "progression," fixed traders, etc.) is due to the upcoming story mode, which I hope will be set off to itself somehow, either confined to the Navezgane map or a story mode layered over all the maps.

Perhaps. I don't have any information to confirm or refute that notion. In terms of biomes and where cities appear, I can agree.

In terms of city layouts, I don't. I suspect that RWG's move to districts was to try to bring more logic to POIs that appear next to each other in cities and the move to Tiles to make that happen was to improve the appearance of cities by eliminating dead space between the POIs and allowing integration of the POIs with roads and sidewalks.

Traders moving to Gateway Tiles could be either, though I think that was more of a way to scatter them out across the map.