The return of old POIs?

[Michal.ak]

Funny you should mention breakable floor and ceiling tiles, etc. earlier. I can't stand that about the old POIs and have been avoiding them like the plague. It's like whoever was designing them at the time couldn't think of any other way to spring zombies on you than have them either falling directly atop your head or dropping/locking you in a room with them via breakable floor tiles. At least they're largely hidden in the open now and pretty well to boot -- behind boxes and doors and construction materials, etc. Not sure when the pre-apocalyptic game world started shipping zombies in crates, but there's a decent variety of zombie placement now by comparison, imo. That's why I think it would be easier just to spread out that loot. Despite the linear flow of the planned routes through, players can still go through them any way they like.

Maybe it would be easier to spread the loot but I highly doubt they would go back on all the work they did on the current POIs and with its dungeon style, it would still be quite tricky to balance it because why should you go all the way to the end if you can get half the loot and dip and there would be no clear incentive to go all the way to the end if the loot is spread apart.

One main reason why I think it wouldnt work is because why would they go back through hundreds of POIs, spread the loot around when they could be working on just revamping older POIs all together.

Hence I still think it would be more practical to get older POIs, revamp them a little to fit the current game like zombie spawns and loot placement around it and make it a map generation option along side with the current POI option.

 

[Kyoji]

Maybe it would be easier to spread the loot but I highly doubt they would go back on all the work they did on the current POIs and with its dungeon style, it would still be quite tricky to balance it because why should you go all the way to the end if you can get half the loot and dip and there would be no clear incentive to go all the way to the end if the loot is spread apart.

One main reason why I think it wouldnt work is because why would they go back through hundreds of POIs, spread the loot around when they could be working on just revamping older POIs all together.

Hence I still think it would be more practical to get older POIs, revamp them a little to fit the current game like zombie spawns and loot placement around it and make it a map generation option along side with the current POI option.

Why would they revamp old POIs when they could just not do that? I feel like it would be far easier to move the loot around than redesign the assets inside to make the POIs less linear.

I disagree about the not so many people interacting with non dungeon style POIs if all of them were like that and toggable on/off, i genuinely feel like it would be a great addition, it would probably be a whole update worth of content but I think it would be worth it.

I don't think it would be worth it and don't think it's even doable. Every new POI would need reworked to remove door locks and barricades that funnel you in a straight line and you would still need to develop every new POI with two separate game concepts in mind. It's not practical as far as I can see it.

As I said, being able to toggle between rpg and survival is what everyone needs, especially the people who played this game since the early alphas who would prefer that type of gameplay.

Not necessarily true. I have played for quite a long time. I remember traveling across the map to find a single broken down house. It wasn't all that fun. Sure some aspects of A16 I miss such as the wasteland city and schematics, but the old POI structure back then was terrible, easy and boring. It was only interesting because you had to search and explore the map to find POIs rather than them all being in a city. Changing the POI layout doesn't bring back any old alpha nostalgia.


I can appreciate the concept and I think the quest/trader spam is one of the primary culprits behind the game changing from previous alphas. That being said I think a better solution is to supplement the game with various things. Instead of changing POIs into two separate types I think it would be easier to make remnant POIs better. If remnant POIs offered much better loot and had proper zombie spawns then they could act as a replacement for the non-linear gameplay you seek. Likewise if they offered more reasons to explore I think that would also bring back some of the old alpha nostalgia.

 

[Michal.ak]

Why would they revamp old POIs when they could just not do that? I feel like it would be far easier to move the loot around than redesign the assets inside to make the POIs less linear.

I don't think it would be worth it and don't think it's even doable. Every new POI would need reworked to remove door locks and barricades that funnel you in a straight line and you would still need to develop every new POI with two separate game concepts in mind. It's not practical as far as I can see it.

Not necessarily true. I have played for quite a long time. I remember traveling across the map to find a single broken down house. It wasn't all that fun. Sure some aspects of A16 I miss such as the wasteland city and schematics, but the old POI structure back then was terrible, easy and boring. It was only interesting because you had to search and explore the map to find POIs rather than them all being in a city. Changing the POI layout doesn't bring back any old alpha nostalgia.


I can appreciate the concept and I think the quest/trader spam is one of the primary culprits behind the game changing from previous alphas. That being said I think a better solution is to supplement the game with various things. Instead of changing POIs into two separate types I think it would be easier to make remnant POIs better. If remnant POIs offered much better loot and had proper zombie spawns then they could act as a replacement for the non-linear gameplay you seek. Likewise if they offered more reasons to explore I think that would also bring back some of the old alpha nostalgia.

But my question is, do you really think they will go back and change all the current POIs to what youre saying? The thing is, they could have done that years and years ago when the game was greatly hated because of the changes but they didnt because of who knows why. Maybe ego, maybe laziness but knowing this, dont you think it would be more of a chance that they would just use the old POIs as a blueprint and remake them, adding them as a toggable option or do you think they will suddenly now go back and do the changes you have said.

I made this post because I feel like the fun pimps are finding a middle ground between us the fans and themselves. Their hard work doesnt go to waste and we get to choose how we want to play. Look at my suggestion like with jars. They couldve just added it back in but no, they gave us an option to let us choose how we want to play. So I still strongly believe that we have a better chance of them creating my suggestion as a toggable feature rather than changing the current POIs

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

two separate game concepts in mind

That's what it boils down to: creating (or recreating) two different games for two different audiences, which just isn't going to happen when the game is nearly finished. To produce what they wanted to do as two separate games -- a survival sandbox and a RPG -- is a decision that would have to have been made long ago. It's a mixture of the two and that will never satisfy both groups.

I'll maintain to my dying day that players can play the POIs any way they like. They don't have to follow that preset, linear route through them no matter how much some protest they do. The trader quests can be ignored or the traders removed altogether (on PC) and I think it's been mentioned that trader options in settings are coming soon.

It's the nitty gritty survival mechanics (e.g. those multitudinous extra steps you see in survival sandboxes) the survival game players miss and RPG players don't seem to mind are missing in favor of abstractions. Neither groups' concerns are unwarranted, but I very much doubt there's much that can be done about the direction it's gone at this point other than provide toggles for trader options/jobs and all parties involved (TFP, console manufacturers, etc.) provide mod support on both console and PC, console support seeming highly unlikely.

 

[Krunch]

I think it would be more like 2 years plus, I don't think you get any progress on bandit POIs during that time or any other new POIs. But that's just my estimate.

It's close to remaking those POIs and that team goes after high quality, so it's not going to be like if I hacked on those POIs in a rushed effort. They've got around 1,000 POIs, though not all of them would have to be changed. For instance, some of the "filler" (tier 0) POIs are already dungeon-less.

I carry a fair amount of retired Vanilla in PEP still as well, and I wouldn't have to dig too far back for more. Theres also plenty of new non dungeon POIs like the Filler ZZTong mentioned, you could easily swap out all of the dungeons and still not be lacking if you mixed a few of the older sets back in.

 

[Michal.ak]

That's what it boils down to: creating (or recreating) two different games for two different audiences, which just isn't going to happen when the game is nearly finished. To produce what they wanted to do as two separate games -- a survival sandbox and a RPG -- is a decision that would have to have been made long ago. It's a mixture of the two and that will never satisfy both groups.

I'll maintain to my dying day that players can play the POIs any way they like. They don't have to follow that preset, linear route through them no matter how much some protest they do. The trader quests can be ignored or the traders removed altogether (on PC) and I think it's been mentioned that trader options in settings are coming soon.

It's the nitty gritty survival mechanics (e.g. those multitudinous extra steps you see in survival sandboxes) the survival game players miss and RPG players don't seem to mind are missing in favor of abstractions. Neither groups' concerns are unwarranted, but I very much doubt there's much that can be done about the direction it's gone at this point other than provide toggles for trader options/jobs and all parties involved (TFP, console manufacturers, etc.) provide mod support on both console and PC, console support seeming highly unlikely.

But thats the thing, I really don't see it as 2 different games, theyre already going to release much more sandbox options, apparently 100+ so would it be 2 different types of games then? Its just POIs, it would just be categorised between linear and non linear. Im not saying it would be easy or quick to do. But im saying it would literally just be new POIs that wont have that dungeon style. This way the fun pimps dont have to go back on their work *which they would never do as proven years ago and using my jars example*

Just because the gameplay is different its not 2 different games, as you said, you can turn off traders and go in however you want, even now with its dungeon style, does that also make it 2 different games?

Its just how the player chooses to play it and having that option there to generate one, the other or even both would create even more ways to play the game. The way you play defines what type of game it is, that wouldnt be any different if they added non dungeon style POIs as an option, it would just make the game that much better for the players that want to play it like a survival game.

 

[Riamus]

Too many posts to see if this has been mentioned. If so, ignore this.

A POI requires a lot of work to create. It isn't something that can be done in a short time. Even a small tier 1 POI takes time, especially if you want it to be up to TFP's standards and not just a "child's drawing" version of a POI (nothing but floors and walls and ceilings without any effort put into making it look decent. And even turning an existing dungeon style POI into an open POI isn't something you can just do. It requires a lot of time and effort to make it happen. And that's for just one POI. They would have to do that to many POI for some kind of game option to be useful. So it just isn't likely to ever happen.

Now, that doesn't mean they can't create new POI that are open format or even update old POI that aren't in the game anymore. But both of those things do take time. A LOT changed with v1.0 in regards to POIs, so even just turning an old POI into one that works in 2.6 without making any other changes isn't a quick thing to do. It can be done, and maybe they'll do it. But it's something that will take work to accomplish. You can see some of them that have been brought back in various POI packs, like ZZTong's. But if TFP brought them back, they'd update them internally and wouldn't just use what a mod author made.

In the end, TFP's POI designers will choose whether to create brand new POI or spend time changing or updating old POI. It can be a far better option to just create new POI. That way you have new content rather than just changing existing content. That tends to be a better option.

In any case, there doesn't need to be a game option to switch between dungeon or non-dungeon POI. There will never be (in vanilla) enough non-dungeon POI created to make it possible to completely disable dungeon POI without seeing constant repetition. Even now, we see a lot of repetition and there are over 1000 POI. They'll never make that many non-dungeon POI to make it possible to disable dungeon POI. Instead, they can (if they choose) make non-dungeon POI that can be placed in any map and then you have the ability to do that kind of POI even if most POI are what we have now.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Likewise if they offered more reasons to explore I think that would also bring back some of the old alpha nostalgia.

Bring back the calipers!

 

[Michal.ak]

Too many posts to see if this has been mentioned. If so, ignore this.

A POI requires a lot of work to create. It isn't something that can be done in a short time. Even a small tier 1 POI takes time, especially if you want it to be up to TFP's standards and not just a "child's drawing" version of a POI (nothing but floors and walls and ceilings without any effort put into making it look decent. And even turning an existing dungeon style POI into an open POI isn't something you can just do. It requires a lot of time and effort to make it happen. And that's for just one POI. They would have to do that to many POI for some kind of game option to be useful. So it just isn't likely to ever happen.

Now, that doesn't mean they can't create new POI that are open format or even update old POI that aren't in the game anymore. But both of those things do take time. A LOT changed with v1.0 in regards to POIs, so even just turning an old POI into one that works in 2.6 without making any other changes isn't a quick thing to do. It can be done, and maybe they'll do it. But it's something that will take work to accomplish. You can see some of them that have been brought back in various POI packs, like ZZTong's. But if TFP brought them back, they'd update them internally and wouldn't just use what a mod author made.

In the end, TFP's POI designers will choose whether to create brand new POI or spend time changing or updating old POI. It can be a far better option to just create new POI. That way you have new content rather than just changing existing content. That tends to be a better option.

In any case, there doesn't need to be a game option to switch between dungeon or non-dungeon POI. There will never be (in vanilla) enough non-dungeon POI created to make it possible to completely disable dungeon POI without seeing constant repetition. Even now, we see a lot of repetition and there are over 1000 POI. They'll never make that many non-dungeon POI to make it possible to disable dungeon POI. Instead, they can (if they choose) make non-dungeon POI that can be placed in any map and then you have the ability to do that kind of POI even if most POI are what we have now.

Of course, it would be something that they would need to implement every update. But I think even if they added the old POIs and revamped them to fit the current game like spreading loot around and so on, that it would be enough.

And about the toggable option, yeah thats true, alot of repetition would take place but I really and truly believe that players that wanted to play that type of way wouldn't mind. And even if they did feel repetitive, they could always just enable dungeon style POIs in their world too.

The reason I made this post is because the fun pimps are finding a middle ground and instead of going back on their hard work, they are making everything toggable which is perfect for everyone involved.

If they used the old POIs as blueprints and just revamped them with loot and zombie spawns, I genuinely think it would be so positively taken that it could motivate the fun pimps to keep making older style POIs for random map generation as a toggle feature

 

[Kyoji]

I made this post because I feel like the fun pimps are finding a middle ground between us the fans and themselves. Their hard work doesnt go to waste and we get to choose how we want to play. Look at my suggestion like with jars. They couldve just added it back in but no, they gave us an option to let us choose how we want to play. So I still strongly believe that we have a better chance of them creating my suggestion as a toggable feature rather than changing the current POIs

I feel like a toggle option is best left for the set it and forget it. If they did your suggestion they would almost have to develop new POIs twice which I don't see happening. I don't think they will remove loot rooms either, because in doing so they would have to redevelop the flow of the POIs and I think they enjoy having people play through them like mini-games even if that way of play is inferior to a more natural approach. Plus I think they have some idea that people enjoy the dopamine hit from the loot rooms, however, misguided that may be.

 

[Michal.ak]

I feel like a toggle option is best left for the set it and forget it. If they did your suggestion they would almost have to develop new POIs twice which I don't see happening. I don't think they will remove loot rooms either, because in doing so they would have to redevelop the flow of the POIs and I think they enjoy having people play through them like mini-games even if that way of play is inferior to a more natural approach. Plus I think they have some idea that people enjoy the dopamine hit from the loot rooms, however, misguided that ma

I must agree, its a big ask and highly unlikely but I just think there may be some sort of chance if alot of people/someone popular brought this up to them. They're finding a middle ground between everyone and I think since the survival revival update got such good feedback, theyre much more motivated and lenient to go towards that direction (hence with the 3.0 sandbox options)

 

[zztong]

What could be viable would be if TFP's POI team was interested is they could embark on making some POIs be a non-dungeon style. Maybe they would do that with some constraints. For instance, maybe they would do that only for tiers 1-3 because they tend to be smaller and making a variety of paths through a bunch of 3-bedroom houses takes a lot of creativity that is probably tapped out after you make your 15th house.

There would be some other decisions to go with that, such as do you still pile up the good loot in one location? Personally, I scatter it about the place so there's no loot room, so to speak. Maybe they consider those non-dungeon style POIs easier and back off the loot a little?

Without a dungeon path, some traps become harder to stage. Do they make up for that with a few more zombies?

 

[Michal.ak]

Thats what they could do and maybe make some 4 stars and like 2 5 stars, i feel like for the time being even that would be enough for the players that want to play like that.

And with the zombies, yeah just add more zombie according to the place, a military camp could have hundreds of zombies while a house could have a family of 5

 

[Riamus]

Have you done the big tier 5 mine POI that they recently added? It's pretty open. You can follow a path, but it isn't necessary. So they do have ones that are like that. There just aren't too many of them. I get the interest in open POI rather than dungeon POI, but I've played a number of them, both the few in vanilla and also a number of them from custom POI that people have made. They are nice for variety, but at the same time, they can be boring. You can very easily miss enemies and not know where to look for them in order to complete a clear quest and end up wasting a lot of time running all over the place to find them. They also can't stage things very well to keep things interesting. Obviously, once you do any POI once or twice, you're going to know where things are and it's just repetition at that point, but at least with things staged, you get more of an interesting and unique experience versus an open POI that is going to be very similar to every other open POI. At least that has been my experience with them.

That being said, I'd be interested in seeing them (or a POI designer) try to make a POI that made use of parts that are entire rooms. Parts are randomly chosen to be placed or not placed, so you could have a few different rooms designs as individual parts and make it so a room could be very different each time you play (up to the number of different room parts). It isn't something that is simple to do since you still have to make the connections between rooms and floors work, but it could add a LOT of variety to the POI. And with some focus on designing those parts, you could make it work where the loot room can change location at least a little bit (such as a room part that is two floors and the loot room could be on either floor depending which part is placed). It's a lot more effort to design a POI like that, but it could definitely help with variety. I'd really enjoy seeing at least one POI set up that was as a proof of concept to see how it worked.

 

[Michal.ak]

Yeah it would take alot of effort and time but if enough people would want that variety, maybe they would consider it. It would also be nice if they categorised POIs if theyre dungeon style or classic so you can pick them or both in the map generation

 

[zztong]

That being said, I'd be interested in seeing them (or a POI designer) try to make a POI that made use of parts that are entire rooms. Parts are randomly chosen to be placed or not placed, so you could have a few different rooms designs as individual parts and make it so a room could be very different each time you play (up to the number of different room parts).

I've looked at it. I know Stallionsden has done it. It involves planning and extra work and I've come the conclusion I'm better off making 2 POIs than making 1 POI with extensive options.

Yeah it would take alot of effort and time but if enough people would want that variety, maybe they would consider it. It would also be nice if they categorised POIs if theyre dungeon style or classic so you can pick them or both in the map generation

I don't think you'd get to the point where you could pick one or the other for world generation. I think the best you hope for is that sometimes you get a quest to a POI that isn't dungeon style and be happy if 10% had no path.

 

[Michal.ak]

I've looked at it. I know Stallionsden has done it. It involves planning and extra work and I've come the conclusion I'm better off making 2 POIs than making 1 POI with extensive options.



I don't think you'd get to the point where you could pick one or the other for world generation. I think the best you hope for is that sometimes you get a quest to a POI that isn't dungeon style and be happy if 10% had no path.

I mean its all about effort and time for the fun pimps, its definitely doable but its just the case if they can be bothered to make it atp. This would need to be greatly wanted and brought to attention for them to even consider it.

 

[Riamus]

I mean its all about effort and time for the fun pimps, its definitely doable but its just the case if they can be bothered to make it atp. This would need to be greatly wanted and brought to attention for them to even consider it.

Sure, but they are at the end of development. It has taken them over a decade to create all the POI in the game and people still feel like those are too repetitive. In order to make enough non-dungeon POI to be useful as anything other than just having additional POI in the game that aren't dungeon POI would require years of work. It just isn't going to happen at this point. Maybe in their next game. For this game, you'll just have to look into custom POI that people have made and hope you can find enough non-dungeon POI to make it work for you. Otherwise, just accept the limited number of non-dungeon POI that TFP may add between now and when development is finished.

If you're not sure why it takes so long, try making a POI in the POI Editor if you are on PC. Focus on making it detailed. You can make the equivalent of a tier 1 POI so that it's still just a very small POI to work on. It'll give you an idea of the work required.

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 2:15 PM

I've looked at it. I know Stallionsden has done it. It involves planning and extra work and I've come the conclusion I'm better off making 2 POIs than making 1 POI with extensive options.

Gotcha. I knew it would take time, but thought it might be overall less work than 2+ POI, especially if you can use those same room parts in multiple POI. With enough, it could allow enough random mix and matching to add variety without being as repetitive and with less overall work. But maybe not. I haven't ever done anything with parts myself beyond just using the driveway parts.

 

[zztong]

Gotcha. I knew it would take time, but thought it might be overall less work than 2+ POI, especially if you can use those same room parts in multiple POI. With enough, it could allow enough random mix and matching to add variety without being as repetitive and with less overall work. But maybe not. I haven't ever done anything with parts myself beyond just using the driveway parts.

It gets into more than just the room and the trappings. If your zombie volumes involve more than one room you might not have enough zombies in one combination. Structural integrity might in some cases depend on objects that are in the room. You start having to play mental games like, if the third variant of the living room is present then what is...?

Did I make sure all of the variants of the living room have a weapons bag? Because if I try to scatter weapons bags between other variants I might get a POI with 3 weapons bags, nor no weapons bags, or...

But if you go after it on a lesser scale, such as this house had 4 different detached garage parts then you might have something. I'd even like to make a pool of say 10 different garages, but I can't dynamically apply the paint, so odds are they won't match the house.

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 2:50 PM

I mean its all about effort and time for the fun pimps, its definitely doable but its just the case if they can be bothered to make it atp. This would need to be greatly wanted and brought to attention for them to even consider it.

And you're responding to a discussion of using Parts as a technique for variability. TFP doesn't do that very much either. I'm probably the biggest user of Parts, but I've not looked at the rest of the community's POIs in the past 9 months, so things could have changed. TFP tends to only use Parts for driveways and to a limited amount on Tiles.

 

[Michal.ak]

It gets into more than just the room and the trappings. If your zombie volumes involve more than one room you might not have enough zombies in one combination. Structural integrity might in some cases depend on objects that are in the room. You start having to play mental games like, if the third variant of the living room is present then what is...?

Did I make sure all of the variants of the living room have a weapons bag? Because if I try to scatter weapons bags between other variants I might get a POI with 3 weapons bags, nor no weapons bags, or...

But if you go after it on a lesser scale, such as this house had 4 different detached garage parts then you might have something. I'd even like to make a pool of say 10 different garages, but I can't dynamically apply the paint, so odds are they won't match the house.

I can imagine its alot of work. Especially for a singular person, but you do need to consider that they do have a team of developers unlike mod creators. With that being said, its definitely a ton of work and obviously wouldnt be done in a shirt amount of time.

But think about it, they have a loyal player base already that even though the fun pimps havent listened to them in the past, we still come back every major update. If they announced that they are working on what I recommended and they created a fundraiser type thing for it, hundreds of people would donate to help them achieve it.