The LBD theyre introducing isnt what I wanted or had in mind.

I'd sooner TFP start up a donation page if they really need the money that badly. ;)

But that is essentially the way it is now. I never have to see the store when I start my game. The place to shop is an entirely separate page online from where I click to play the game. Even in the opening ad space, I can click skip immediately without looking at any offerings and even if I do see something I like, I have to close the game and go to a different "donation" page to donate my money and receive my "donation reward".

Most of the outrage over micro-transactions is not that they are micro (one small item) but that they are inserted into the game itself, are limited in availability to a season of time, and are pay-to-win (whenever they are). TFP has avoided all of these negatives. The closest they get is offering outfits as Twitch drops which presses on the FOMO center of the brain, but then again, those are also free in terms of cash. The transaction is your time and attention for an hour-- and even then you can minimize that window and mute your sound to 100% truly get the drop for free. And it is an entirely different place to go and do that than where you go to play the game yourself.

So if a separate donation page is acceptable, I think TFP has you covered.
 
But that is essentially the way it is now. I never have to see the store when I start my game. The place to shop is an entirely separate page online from where I click to play the game. Even in the opening ad space, I can click skip immediately without looking at any offerings and even if I do see something I like, I have to close the game and go to a different "donation" page to donate my money and receive my "donation reward".

Most of the outrage over micro-transactions is not that they are micro (one small item) but that they are inserted into the game itself, are limited in availability to a season of time, and are pay-to-win (whenever they are). TFP has avoided all of these negatives. The closest they get is offering outfits as Twitch drops which presses on the FOMO center of the brain, but then again, those are also free in terms of cash. The transaction is your time and attention for an hour-- and even then you can minimize that window and mute your sound to 100% truly get the drop for free. And it is an entirely different place to go and do that than where you go to play the game yourself.

So if a separate donation page is acceptable, I think TFP has you covered.

To add to this, to go whaling you need to offer something that can or must be bought multiple times or have outrageous prices (a few hundred dollars or more). You simply can't offer that many DLCs from steam to generate any "whaling" situation, and steam itself might even step in if you try to sell a skin for $999.99. I have never seen a game on steam where whaling was possible through DLCs. Did you?

Really, you need an ingame shop or you can simply forget any attempt at whaling.

Also, many tricks used to siphon money from players work only with in-game shops, for example the special currency where they disguise costs and make it so there is always some money left you can't do anything with.
 
Sorry guys. I don't turn myself into a pretzel to try and make things seem something they're not. They're mtx, plain and simple. My personal disappointment to see them, especially at an extra cost for an unfinished game is not diminished. You can justify them to yourselves any way you like, of course.
 
Sorry guys. I don't turn myself into a pretzel to try and make things seem something they're not. They're mtx, plain and simple. My personal disappointment to see them, especially at an extra cost for an unfinished game is not diminished. You can justify them to yourselves any way you like, of course.

Did I justify them? I think not. It is just that lumping for example whaling and the usual AAA practices together with them is like talking about theft and putting it into the same category as murder.
 
To add to this, to go whaling you need to offer something that can or must be bought multiple times or have outrageous prices (a few hundred dollars or more). You simply can't offer that many DLCs from steam to generate any "whaling" situation, and steam itself might even step in if you try to sell a skin for $999.99. I have never seen a game on steam where whaling was possible through DLCs. Did you?

Really, you need an ingame shop or you can simply forget any attempt at whaling.

Also, many tricks used to siphon money from players work only with in-game shops, for example the special currency where they disguise costs and make it so there is always some money left you can't do anything with.
 
90% of players buy a game to play, not to argue or write surveys.
last time I checked a poll isnt an argument.
Post automatically merged:

Is the 11th most popular Steam game a failure? So what's a success then?
View attachment 38289
Eric Barone always told his advisors to go to hell and did what he liked.
no one makes a game start to finish without feedback from other people testing the game.
 
Sorry guys. I don't turn myself into a pretzel to try and make things seem something they're not. They're mtx, plain and simple. My personal disappointment to see them, especially at an extra cost for an unfinished game is not diminished. You can justify them to yourselves any way you like, of course.

I didn't disagree that they are microtransactions. I was talking about the objectionable aspects of microtransactions some of which you, yourself, brought up.

  1. Purchase point is in-game
  2. Limited time offer during a season to capitalize on FOMO
  3. Pay to Win
  4. Purchased content disappears when game is no longer in live service.
  5. Purchased content is consumable so that you must purchase it over and over

None of those apply to 7 Days to Die at all. I don't feel like I'm a pretzel in saying so. WIthout any of these objectionable parts included in the microtransaction, how are you not turning yourself into a pretzel to villify them? Personally, I'm not interested in them and haven't bought them. I'm not trying to justify any purchase that I've made.
 
I've never said that. Can't speak for anyone else.


I don't think console manufacturers are an unnamed entity. Shadowy? Debatable. ;)

Like it or not, independent studios have to work with console manufacturers to do any number of things, including getting their games rubber stamped for mod support on console. As I said, I don't how their negotiations went or even if TFP were involved as much as the partner they chose to port the game to console. All those processes, especially across companies, are unknown to us.


You're probably not going to like what I have to say about that, but Joel's response sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Software and video game development is not just like changing a tire. For all the reasons noted above (the triple A fiascos, etc.) I'd much rather hear, "when it's done," than some clueless executive far removed from the hands-on development of the game having the power to say, "We have to show a profit this quarter. Release it, ready or not." That's how developers get blamed for stuff that is no way their fault. They're robbed of the power to make the decisions that, in all good conscience, should be made by them. Those CD Projekt developers were ignored by the suits when they warned Cyberpunk 2077 required two more years development time. Yet, they were blamed for the state of the game on release, called "lazy developers" and all kinds of equally stupid ■■■■. I can imagine how they felt. I can imagine how TFP feels when players project their own ■■■■ on them. It's called empathy.
two thoughts can exist at the same time...what I was highlighting was that he has no idea how long it will take to get Bandits done, let alone the entire game, but, they put "overly optimistic" dates on the road map. THAT is what I have been calling BS on. Yes, they should release features when they are actually ready...also Yes, they should not have put out a "reasonable" timeline for how long it would take them to finish the game....when they knew they could not meet it.

right now TFP are "radio silent" after releasing 2.5, they don't answer comments on their Social Media Posts...and they have not put out a new one in a while...console gamers just wanted to know when are they're going to fix the problems 2.5 caused. because while we "got" the 2.5 update before xmas...it made the game basically unplayable once you had a vehicle and could leave the forest biome. the stutter and lag in towns and cities and on vehicles made me just uninstall.
Nope. It's no skin off my back how long it takes. They should take all the time they think they need, afic. I only wonder how much time and energy and budget they can yet afford to spend and can only hope they have a decent cushion and aren't feeling rushed to get it finished. I also salute them for not allowing the power to decide when it is finished to be stripped from them by "nameless," utterly careless entities like Sony and Microsoft. Those behemoths don't care about anything but their bottom lines, especially you and me.
I get that it is "no skin off your back", it is a common refrain from the PC gamer crowd...I was asking if you could, given the timescales he was using, understand why I call bs on the initial timeline they RESOLD the game to us on.
How is that different from the path TFP took by partnering with TellTale, getting shafted and repartnering with a (hopefully) more solid, less unsteady company to do the console port now? Other than the nightmare they went through trying to get the console publishing rights to their own freaking game back, of course. You say it should have been finished before porting it? Does any game development company do that? Or do they actually, usually develop for console? Seems to me, they actually develop for console, for the most part, and I have the worst PC ports imaginable as proof. Elden Ring is the worst. Just try putting together a keyboard and mouse setup that works for that. Took me forever and I still can't get used to it. So, I'm happy to hear up to 80% of developers are working on exclusively PC games now.
Well...they SOLD THE CONSOLE RIGHTS to TellTale the first time...this time they retained them, so any problems, and hopefully do not have any, with the console port, the game will still be in their control. That is an improvement.

"we" don't actually know what TellTale intended, or if they were following the same example of parallel development. As I remember it, They were apparently planning to use 7 days as a vehicle for all of their Walking Dead IP, hence the skin packs that were only available to console. Would there have been more deviations? no one outside of those two companies will likely ever know.

I am not surprised that a large amount of developers are going to just develop for the PC market. Because of the Practices of the Big Platforms and Gaming Companies you have been talking about...consoles are not selling...console gamers are opting out. Not because we don't like playing on console, but, because enough is enough. My next system...if any...will be a steam console...IF we get the choice about THAT. (This new idea that everyone will just rent access to computing vs actually owning a computer or console is ■■■■ed up) I'd also guess, it is because PC gamers are tired of having great games dumbed down to fit on console...instead of using parallel development to make the games better for BOTH systems...each getting the "best" their system can handle. There are many moving parts in gaming and the future thereof right now...all caused by corporate greed and AI data centers.
 
I didn't disagree that they are microtransactions. I was talking about the objectionable aspects of microtransactions some of which you, yourself, brought up.

  1. Purchase point is in-game
  2. Limited time offer during a season to capitalize on FOMO
  3. Pay to Win
  4. Purchased content disappears when game is no longer in live service.
  5. Purchased content is consumable so that you must purchase it over and over

None of those apply to 7 Days to Die at all. I don't feel like I'm a pretzel in saying so. WIthout any of these objectionable parts included in the microtransaction, how are you not turning yourself into a pretzel to villify them? Personally, I'm not interested in them and haven't bought them. I'm not trying to justify any purchase that I've made.
they used FOMO in the dev streams Pre Launch. They said it would not be going on sale for a long time...that the 25% loyalty discount was only for one month.

I honestly don't care if they sell skins...people have free choice to buy them or not. As long as there are no "pay to win" skins...It doesn't affect any other gamers.
 
They are microtransactions.

Rick essentially said in a stream that they have no intention to go "whaling." Guess we'll see.
Maybe my understanding of what microtransactions are is wrong then.

In any case, I would look at them as "shady" IF (not the case here):
  1. You were able to buy them inside the game
  2. They were actual items that can be used to your advantage in the game
  3. They could be purchased inside the game with some "special currency" that you have to buy
Instead my point of view is that, like every business, TFP has need for money, especially after such a long development time, but instead of begging for it or trying to get it with some shady practice like those AAA companies, they simply ask the players: "Hey guys! We made these nice skins for your in-game role playing. If you like them and want to buy them to support us it would be great!".

The skins were not even part of the Kickstarter and they were probably created by someone at TFP who had some "spare" time. So, they don't delay the development of the game and they're not some kind of veering from the main path. I don't see the problem there.

Am I naive to think that? :unsure:
 
I didn't disagree that they are microtransactions. I was talking about the objectionable aspects of microtransactions some of which you, yourself, brought up.

  1. Purchase point is in-game
  2. Limited time offer during a season to capitalize on FOMO
  3. Pay to Win
  4. Purchased content disappears when game is no longer in live service.
  5. Purchased content is consumable so that you must purchase it over and over

None of those apply to 7 Days to Die at all. I don't feel like I'm a pretzel in saying so. WIthout any of these objectionable parts included in the microtransaction, how are you not turning yourself into a pretzel to villify them? Personally, I'm not interested in them and haven't bought them. I'm not trying to justify any purchase that I've made.
They replaced the quit button with the DLC button, and moved the quit button to the bottom right. This annoys me, as I often click on it just out of habit.

Honestly, I think that's a bit shady. But given that it's just skins, it's not enough to make me write off TFP. If they released a full blown DLC before finishing the game (looking at you, Ark), then yes, that would be a problem.
 
they used FOMO in the dev streams Pre Launch. They said it would not be going on sale for a long time...that the 25% loyalty discount was only for one month.
I never said they never used FOMO ever. They just haven’t used them for microtransactions by limiting them to a season as many games do.

Microtransactions is kind of the context for the conversation and the 1.0 launch was not a microtransaction. I’m sure people felt FOMO about the reduced console price. I don’t dispute that.
 
Last edited:
(This new idea that everyone will just rent access to computing vs actually owning a computer or console is ■■■■ed up).... There are many moving parts in gaming and the future thereof right now...all caused by corporate greed and AI data centers.
True. As much as they love science fiction, I don't get the impression much of anyone in Silicon Valley has ever read M. S.. Forster's 'The Machine Stops'. Strange how many of us apparently looked forward to a somewhat Star Trek- like future and we're getting Fallout and Blade Runner instead. ;)

Unfortunately, the belief that "the future is social and online" (full stop) is not confined to the gaming industry and the stock market permeates everything from housing to healthcare. The belief in infinite growth on a finite planet is just a belief, though, and beliefs can change. I think it's an ideological pathogen. Silicon Valley does not, but then Silicon Valley doesn't understand what Nietzsche meant by "Übermensch." Ergo, transhumanism strikes me as a very confused ideology.
how are you not turning yourself into a pretzel to villify them
That's very dramatic, but I just see and name things what they are and believe I've said at some point that I neither praise nor condemn TFP for adopting the practice. "Cosmetic DLC," however propagandized that term is, are considered acceptable by most. As I also said, there no laws against them; no near-universal public stigma attached to them as there is to, say; smoking etc. I'm certainly not going to try to change anyone's minds about them, much less pursue legal means to get rid of them. Self-governance is just that in my mind and we could all be better at it, afic. I'm personally disappointed TFP has employed them. That's all. They seem to be trying their best to avoid the kind of predatory practices that have taken over the triple A space; have gone the nonpredatory, distributed, user-administered server route surprisingly advocated by the likes of John Carmack; etc. It was their business practices much more than the game itself that caused me, at least, to view them as a scrappy independent. They did hop aboard the live service train with Bloodmoons, as I see it, but unfortunately for them, that particular train had already left the building, i.e. the live service financial bubble already had burst. I wish them luck because the odds are stacked against the scrappy independents.
 
politely,
I am not getting thru to you...and the people on this forum are not getting thru to me.

"all dates subject to change" apparently means "not one thing has changed with how they are developing this game".
I bought into the idea that, after a decade, they were finally putting it all together...not that they still don't know how long it is going to take them to implement their "plan".

"I would not have bought back in". even though I had not brought it up, fair enough you did, and yeah...I would not have given them more money...not with no idea of how long it would actually take them to finish the god■■■■ game...after more than a decade. Hell...weren't Bandits coming in 2016...they've been a decade all by themselves.

After TellTale failed...TFP were free to just make the PC game they wanted to. According to you guys, they never needed console money to finish the game, they sold 20 million copies, and that was mostly to PC, so we should be grateful they are even bothering to include console.
(does that sound about right?)

A small "correction":

"grateful" may be too big a word, but porting to consoles was (probably, we can only guess their financial situation) optional and one of the reasons to do it was surely money, though another could have been to give something to console players who had been hurt by the telltale crash.

But they must have decided right when they did bid on the rights that they would make a console version again, in 2019 as you correctly state below. At that time nobody except MS itself knew about the xbox s

So best version of the game?...to me that would have been to continue making the PC game as good as your platform could handle...and THEN try to port as much of the finished game as you could. OR go the Rust route and do parallel development, where they make the best game they can for PC, and thru optimization Port features and major POI's over to the console version when they can, and using what they learned thru optimization to make the PC version run even better.
The whole time they are ADDING TO THE BASE GAME...for both versions.

Instead, TFP decided in 2019, that they would make consoles buy a second version of the same game, and reduce the game to the lowest gaming platforms constrictions. the xbox S...which is HALF of the xboxes sold.

The Xbox S seems to have been announced in 2020, which means TFP could neither have known there would be such a limited version of the new xbox nor was it known that microsoft would only allow games on their platform if they ran identically on the S as well. I think the only concession was that games could run at a lower resolution(?) which doesn't help 7D2D that much as it is CPU-bound.

"don't I like all the free update?", Madmole asked me that same question, on a different thread.
"free updates" come after the game is actually finished. What you are getting is not free, it is pieces of something YOU ALREADY PAID FOR.
 
@meganoth
honestly...this is as bad as modern politics...nobody who actually knows is ever going to present the crucial details...and you and I are not changing any minds without THAT information. Both of us can and are correctly accused of spinning things to our own POV. I'm just going to sit and wait for them to announce this "new road map"...I doubt there will be any dates. My opinion will be that "they already got our money...so of course NOW there are no dates". hey...look at me...predicting the future. I have no idea what your wording will be, but, undoubtedly it will be a variation of "it takes as long as it takes...I am glad there are no dates".

Here's my last complaint for a long time(tm): They should not be radio silent on social media posts right now...they are ignoring all the people asking about when the game will be fixed from the 2.5 update. it's rude as ■■■■. They should have had something to say by now. Because it seems like more than a few bugs were caused by it. The biggest one being the lag and stutter. Sure...they are working on it. I don't deny it, but, the lack of communication is ■■■■ing off people who bought and love the game (outside of the forum).
 
Back
Top