teragon maps

[paulj_3]

(big sigh)
  Yeah - you're right, of course Geoff. . . .  I was pretty excited as we approached the release of 'Big T' - especially with Brad's beautiful videos: he puts so much work into this hobby, just as you guys are doing here: I've played with it every day since that release, but I'm not a graphics guy by any stretch - and you make it all seem so easy, somehow. I thought, with Bob's two nice maps and the help of this thread - you, Riamus, Bob, Spud et al, I could open them up in Teragon - and actually see the numbers - the "Expert" figures - just as he had entered them, but it "looks like" that's not the case: I'm still unsure if that's possible, but that would certainly be a very good point which would lead to a solid understanding - or interpretation - of each line command; At 78, and a retired IT guy since 1960, and playing and modding this crazy game since it's early times, I guess I was expecting a 'better' version of KingGen', but without the 'deep' graphics verbage! Add a touch of burn-out and late nights, and it led to the post above, for which I humbly apologize. Just ignore me - I'll suck it up and do my duty!!!

Thank you all.

pj

 

[Riamus]

(big sigh)
  Yeah - you're right, of course Geoff. . . .  I was pretty excited as we approached the release of 'Big T' - especially with Brad's beautiful videos: he puts so much work into this hobby, just as you guys are doing here: I've played with it every day since that release, but I'm not a graphics guy by any stretch - and you make it all seem so easy, somehow. I thought, with Bob's two nice maps and the help of this thread - you, Riamus, Bob, Spud et al, I could open them up in Teragon - and actually see the numbers - the "Expert" figures - just as he had entered them, but it "looks like" that's not the case: I'm still unsure if that's possible, but that would certainly be a very good point which would lead to a solid understanding - or interpretation - of each line command; At 78, and a retired IT guy since 1960, and playing and modding this crazy game since it's early times, I guess I was expecting a 'better' version of KingGen', but without the 'deep' graphics verbage! Add a touch of burn-out and late nights, and it led to the post above, for which I humbly apologize. Just ignore me - I'll suck it up and do my duty!!!

Thank you all.

pj

Lol. No need to apologize.  It is hard to understand at first.  I'm certainly still learning how it works and some things I think I know are probably not exactly correct.  I'm not a graphics guy either and the terminology relating to fractals didn't make any sense to me.  Honestly, it still doesn't, but I at least know generally what to do with the values.

Loading a map into Teragon isn't something you can easily do. What you want are the presets for maps as that includes everything from Teragon.  You would need to verify your paths are set up correctly for your computer as sometimes order may use different paths, but otherwise it is ready to go as long as it isn't asking for custom POI or importing a heightmap or something like that, where you would need additional files for the order to work correctly.

I know you've been on discord. Feel free to ask any questions you have and if anyone is around, you should get some help.  That is, if you want to keep working on it right now.  You may be happier waiting until documentation and command descriptions are completed, though I don't know how soon that will be.  One person on discord has been filling in the descriptions for commands as they learn what changes do to a map and could probably share a preset with you that has those descriptions in the meantime.  I doubt they have everything filled in, but it would give you a start.  We should also start seeing more presets shared on discord as people start finding maps they like and think are worth sharing.

Right now, I'm waiting for the next version as Pille thinks he has figured out the issue with low POI counts, so hopefully that will be in the next version for everyone who has been having trouble with them.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

While I am thinking about it - The last few map generations I've done were done with the all of the Create Whatever Heightmaps turned off or removed from the command queue, and just using the imported heightmap.

Does creating a FLAT heightmap have any effect on city/town placement if an imported heightmap is being pulled in after?  Does importing one first make the map flat-flat?  Or does it smooth the map some?  Time to run some tests... 

 

[Riamus]

While I am thinking about it - The last few map generations I've done were done with the all of the Create Whatever Heightmaps turned off or removed from the command queue, and just using the imported heightmap.

Does creating a FLAT heightmap have any effect on city/town placement if an imported heightmap is being pulled in after?  Does importing one first make the map flat-flat?  Or does it smooth the map some?  Time to run some tests... 

If you are importing a heightmap, there's no reason to leave the flat heightmap active.  That just gives the "add heightmap" and "subtract heightmap" commands a place to start.  When importing a heightmap, you're not adding or subtracting, so it isn't needed.

As a note to all, Pille has fixed the issue with POI placement, but there are a couple issues with it that need resolved.  But wait until you see how a map looks with 1000 wilderness POI.  Wow! 

 

[Riamus]

Here's a 4k map that would be decent to play on if you wanted to use a smaller map.  I prefer a larger map, but I do like the look of this one.  There is one factory_03, which I believe is a tier 5, but that might be the only tier 5 on the map.  Still like it, though.  As you can see with this, POI are easy to get.  I have it set to 250 as it's only a 4k map and it's very populated.  In fact, much more so than you'd probably want.

 

[bobrpggamer]

the reason roads take so long isthat they basically only use 1 thread. it skips from core to core but seems like only 1 core at a time.

press ctrl+shift+esc  then the performance tab then on CPU. i have a 5800X with 8 cores and 16 threads. you can watch the load when generating roads etc. the initial part of generating the maps uses multiple cores.

should have time this weekend to try a few more maps....trying to download height maps from tangram .

Well it been 48 hours and they are still generating. I have a i79700k so I have 8 cores as well and usually I can game and do the maps at the same time, but the last time I ran short of luck and ran out of memory (32GB) and the maps died so I have been waiting for one of the maps to complete before I start gaming again.

The longest of 20 maps was 8 hours even on a 12K map. so i did something wrong this time. All the setting are the same except towns and POIs which I like to change here and there. The heightmap (including eroding and rivers) was done previously and the only thing I am adding to the queue is water map, environment map, cities, POIs and roads, so the formula must be wrong on my end.

Maybe I should just do all the computation in one queue and one ini and not do heightmap separately and use an ini for just towns and roads.

Something kind of funny happened. The clock reset after 24 hours. I guess he never expected renders to take more than 24 hours.

I think multithreading is low on the list of things to update, as it seems to me that it would add a lot more and even change a lot more code.

Good thing is you can do almost anything even gaming while teragon is working in the background, as long as you have at least 32GB of memory.

 

[bobrpggamer]

Downloaded your two maps, Bob. Many many thanks! They look like 'perfect' maps to me - I had hoped that they would give me some concrete direction toward making my own, but so far it's been limited to the addition of some patches of burnt forest in the 10k map. (I use 1x sulfur, 1x charcoal and 6x p. nitrate to make gunpowder The b. forest supplies the charcoal from the terrBurntForestGround, with sulfur coming from the terr_stone layer everywhere else.) 
On a more negative note, though - I have to express some disappointment with Teragon. KingGen is an almost perfect interface for the average map-maker, with Nitrogen not too far behind, but Teragon requires a skill-set - plus a time commitment - that's several frustrating levels above them both, and - I may be wrong here - but the number of people participating in this thread tells me I'm not the only one who thinks this way. My head hurts when confronted with the complexity of the "Expert" settings!  You guys are heroes here - and so is Brad with his video's - but I can only see an opportunity for a few folks - like Capt. Krunch - to create and provide maps for the rest of us. Making my own maps this way is probably over for me, and that's a pity. Thanks again, (and a bit of an apology for the small rant.)
pj

I am just a guy who has the time and patience for trial and error. If you forget about roads and erosion and rivers, just try 4K maps and find the heightmap you like. Then concentrate on environment and which style you prefer, the old splotch map or the new transition map. Then tackle the cities and pois and finally when you have the combination you like you can add roads later.

Another note is to only adjust the settings tallman brad has talked about. The Octaves? and Lacunarity? I do not change at all.

I cursed this program for two days straight, so I have had my problems with it. Its just that I have the time (no life to speak of) and patience to use lots of trial and error.

Its like early content creation with 3DS Max and the like, I started using it in 1999 before you had easy settings for photo realism and long before the physically accurate rendering software now days, it required lots and lots of long rendering trial and error for a beautiful render.

Now that I think about it, you should get an .ini from someone that has a map you like and that would be a far better reference point to start from. Then you could change a few setting here and there to play around with.

When I get a good all around map that does roads like it used to, I will upload my .ini.

 

[Riamus]

Here's another fun map to show the POI improvements.  4k map with max POI of 2500.  I'm sure we don't hit 2500 here, but it definitely shows that it's far easier to get POI now.

 

[bobrpggamer]

Here's another fun map to show the POI improvements.  4k map with max POI of 2500.  I'm sure we don't hit 2500 here, but it definitely shows that it's far easier to get POI now.

View attachment 27294

Every time I get 1/100th of the amount of POIs you have here I get CTD. I surprised you you got a preview of this. If you have the time you should try making side roads just for kicks.

It happens like this for me. Wow, I got boatloads of POIs this time....CTD. Woah, I got boatloads of Cities this time....CTD. I gave up on that.

What are the settings other than amount?

 

[Riamus]

You need the new test release to get this.  Just giving everyone a peek at it as I know many have been frustrated with POI and may have given up.  Once testing is complete, a new update will be available that you can use.  Probably within the next week or so.  Once it is updated, you'll get this kind of thing almost regardless of any settings other than max number.  Obviously, amount of water and steep terrain and cities and map size will limit the total number you can get on the map, but generally speaking, you can get something like this with any settings when you get the update.

 

[bobrpggamer]

You need the new test release to get this.  Just giving everyone a peek at it as I know many have been frustrated with POI and may have given up.  Once testing is complete, a new update will be available that you can use.  Probably within the next week or so.  Once it is updated, you'll get this kind of thing almost regardless of any settings other than max number.  Obviously, amount of water and steep terrain and cities and map size will limit the total number you can get on the map, but generally speaking, you can get something like this with any settings when you get the update.

So you have the new release? Any date on when it is available?

Also, has the automatic roads feature been updated as well?

I really screwed things up somehow, as it is, one map is going to have completed roads after 192 hours, over a week.

One feature I would like to see is, the ability to merge a hand painted roadmap, like the one from MapToolz into the map and bake it in somehow as though it was generated exactly like the auto or manual maps get finished.

I do not understand why the splat.png is not editable, might as well be called splat.dat, the object of a .png is that it is a bitmap and can be edited like any other format like, .bmp, jpg, tga and so on.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I do not understand why the splat.png is not editable, might as well be called splat.dat, the object of a .png is that it is a bitmap and can be edited like any other format like, .bmp, jpg, tga and so on.

You should be able to open the splat file layers with a decent graphics/photo editor like Krita, GIMP, or Photoshop.  There should be Green, Blue, and Red layers, and you can edit the appropriate color layer.  If I remember correctly, Green was the secondary/gravel roads, and Red was the primary roads.

This map was done with the latest (2/14/23) CP 48.6 CP_All_inc_Vanilla lists.  For Create Towns I used Town count 15, min size 3, max size 40, flatness and altitude deviation both 80, and max altitude 120.  I did about 7 - 8 passes using a repeat loop for the Create Region POIs on my last map attempt.  Each loop I changed the flatness and altitude numbers. 

Too many bridges but otherwise a decently balanced city placement and a fair number of wilderness POIs.  But I am REALLY looking forward to the next update to Teragon and the much improved Wilderness POI generation!

 

[bobrpggamer]

You should be able to open the splat file layers with a decent graphics/photo editor like Krita, GIMP, or Photoshop.  There should be Green, Blue, and Red layers, and you can edit the appropriate color layer.  If I remember correctly, Green was the secondary/gravel roads, and Red was the primary roads.

I did that and added the roadmap to terragon and processed it and I ended up with a map without biomes. I use MapToolz and I get roads with trees and boulders on them.

Red 256 for main roads and Green 256 for side roads.

You should be able to open the splat file layers with a decent graphics/photo editor like Krita, GIMP, or Photoshop.  There should be Green, Blue, and Red layers, and you can edit the appropriate color layer.  If I remember correctly, Green was the secondary/gravel roads, and Red was the primary roads.

This map was done with the latest (2/14/23) CP 48.6 CP_All_inc_Vanilla lists.  For Create Towns I used Town count 15, min size 3, max size 40, flatness and altitude deviation both 80, and max altitude 120.  I did about 7 - 8 passes using a repeat loop for the Create Region POIs on my last map attempt.  Each loop I changed the flatness and altitude numbers. 

Too many bridges but otherwise a decently balanced city placement and a fair number of wilderness POIs.  But I am REALLY looking forward to the next update to Teragon and the much improved Wilderness POI generation!

View attachment 27295

The bridges are still buggy. I choose to not add them and make my own bridges in game. Other than that, the map looks cool. I may try the CP pack, but I am still OK with vanilla POIs so far (except the dungeon thing they added a while back - I hate that).

Like I said earlier, if you want all bridge remnants out of the finished map, you have to delete all bridge references from the prefabs.xml or you still get them in your final map.

 

[Riamus]

So you have the new release? Any date on when it is available?

Also, has the automatic roads feature been updated as well?

Testing versions are available through Discord.  It will be available whenever Pille feels it's been thoroughly tested and whether or not anything else will be added.  I'm assuming within the next week or so like I mentioned, but I don't know that for certain.  I just passed on the info for anyone who doesn't grab test versions from there.

No news on roads, but I'm sure they are higher priority item.  Could still be a while before we see anything there.

 

[bobrpggamer]

Testing versions are available through Discord.  It will be available whenever Pille feels it's been thoroughly tested and whether or not anything else will be added.  I'm assuming within the next week or so like I mentioned, but I don't know that for certain.  I just passed on the info for anyone who doesn't grab test versions from there.

No news on roads, but I'm sure they are higher priority item.  Could still be a while before we see anything there.

Thanks for the info. I would love to see more POIs pop up on a map without a CTD.

 

[Wolves Hero]

Here's another fun map to show the POI improvements.  4k map with max POI of 2500.  I'm sure we don't hit 2500 here, but it definitely shows that it's far easier to get POI now.

View attachment 27294

 Wow that lots of wilderness POIs but my UK map & square islands map still lack wilderness POIs & too many Old West town, I already max 1000 spawn none worked.

 

[crimson_binome]

yes wilderness pois are back!  

 

[bobrpggamer]

 Wow that lots of wilderness POIs but my UK map & square islands map still lack wilderness POIs & too many Old West town, I already max 1000 spawn none worked.

You might be able to get rid of old west towns by striking out the old west line the Town Property List with //

The default:

// town name; min tile count; max tile count;center:tile_type1,tile_type1,...;outskirt:tile_type1,tile_type2,...

// tile types -> commercial, countryresidential, countrytown, downtown, industrial, oldwest, residential, rural

//

//

regular_town;7;any;center:downtown,commercial,industrial;outskirt:rural,residential,countrytown

small_town;3;8;outskirt:residential,countrytown

oldwest_town;1;4;outskirtldwest

To:

// town name; min tile count; max tile count;center:tile_type1,tile_type1,...;outskirt:tile_type1,tile_type2,...

// tile types -> commercial, countryresidential, countrytown, downtown, industrial, oldwest, residential, rural

//

//

regular_town;7;any;center:downtown,commercial,industrial;outskirt:rural,residential,countrytown

small_town;3;8;outskirt:residential,countrytown

//oldwest_town;1;4;outskirtldwest

Its worth a try, but may cause an error or CTD.

With POIs its all about the last 2 settings.

Flatness Threshhold

Altitude Deviation Threshold

You could have 25000 spawn limit and either get a CTD or the same as 300 spawn limit.

The best thing to do is to add 10 Create Region POIs with different last 2 setting (20 Flatness and 20 Altitude works best for me) to get as much as you can. I get around 50 this way and if I get to many its a CTD for some reason.

 

[paulj_3]

       Thought I might take advantage of some "Group Therapy", as the previous pages here worked some wonders on my mental state, thanks to you good folks.
       I did have some measure of success today, after following Brad's Terrain and Big Cities vid, making perhaps a dozen various sized maps that look "ok".  I still have a few hurdles, though - one of which is, in spite of doing a 'desert - forest - forest - forest - burnt forest' selection in the Expert\Create Env. Biome Map section - I still get snow and wasteland areas showing in the map as well. How on earth do I create a three-biome map??? 
        Secondly - and this might help someone else - I was getting crashes too often, so I dug a bit, and first finding it only happened when using the 'CP48.6 All inc Vanilla.ini', and then found it only occurred when the 'Create Towns' command happened.  This calls the prefab lists, and prefabs file (I guess) and so, knowing I had ZZTong's tents prefab in the Mods folder - also the Waterland mod there - I considered there could be a conflict happening, as they both have their own Config folders containing biomes.xml and rgwmixer.xml files - and that just might clash with the same in the CP48.6 folder - and maybe Teragon, too, as it does its build. Anyway - I pulled both out, and the problem disappeared.
          A third issue is more of an annoyance, as I've always put lots of color dots along the margins between each biome in the biomes.png when manually creating a map. The effect is very natural-looking, and I'm glad to see it in Teragon: however - I think it only appears when using the default presets - The last map today was the 'giant cities', using the CP48.6 CP preset, and that came out as sharp-edged blob biomes, with no blending whatsoever: have I missed something? "Diffuse biomes transition' is selected where it occurs, but I might have missed it somewhere? Ideas?

Thanks as always, 

pj

         
        

 

 

[zztong]

Secondly - and this might help someone else - I was getting crashes too often, so I dug a bit, and first finding it only happened when using the 'CP48.6 All inc Vanilla.ini', and then found it only occurred when the 'Create Towns' command happened.  This calls the prefab lists, and prefabs file (I guess) and so, knowing I had ZZTong's tents prefab in the Mods folder - also the Waterland mod there - I considered there could be a conflict happening, as they both have their own Config folders containing biomes.xml and rgwmixer.xml files - and that just might clash with the same in the CP48.6 folder - and maybe Teragon, too, as it does its build. Anyway - I pulled both out, and the problem disappeared.

I don't really understand beyond the notion that there might be a conflict.

In my mind, there's always the potential for conflict between my modlet and the CompoPack, as everything in my modlet is also contributed to the CompoPack but the CP renames files to its standard making them look like different POIs. Or, in this case, the Decorations.

What really has me interested though is the crashes. Crashes would hopefully involve an exception, and exception would involve a log file entry, and the details of the stack trace in the log file could give us a clue as to what the game was trying to do when everything came crashing down around it.

Or, do you mean Teragon crashes? If so, I doubt it is a Decoration as Teragon should have nothing to do with those. Decorations are the only thing I modify in biomes.xml. At least that I remember.