Story Mode Controversy --REDUX

[Roland]

I won't spend any more time replying to someone who quotes one part of my text and completely ignores another part

Please and thank you.

I guess the reason you can't understand why a thread about the depiction of Native Americans in the story as it currently exists in the code can be discussed while politics and religion are banned topics is that you cannot discuss this topic without making things political. You're coming off right now as someone who's mad about a perceived miscarriage of the rules and so now you're trying to disrupt and do what you can to inject as much political talk as you can to ...what?.... get the thread closed? make things even and fair in your own mind?

Nobody was making anything personal until you started openly wondering why politics are a no-no but discussing possible racism in the story is okay and then proceeded to make personal politically themed attacks.

I'm sorry you don't see the difference between arguing political ideologies and discussing elements of the story that might be racist in nature but it is your very lack of awareness on this point that means I can't explain it to you in a way you would ever accept or see.

TLDR: The attempt to make this discussion political and devolve into ideological flaming stops now. The thread is an interesting and valuable topic 100% relevant to the game. Rather than closing the thread, people who refuse to or simply cannot stop themselves from turning it into an opportunity to start a political flame war will be banned from this thread (not from the entire site).

 

[Roland]

i haven't heard about the "tomahawk chop"

It was like "the wave" that spectators at sports events often do to show support or celebrate a great play. The Tomahawk Chop was a similar type of move that fans of the Kansas City Chiefs and Atlanta Braves would do and because of criticism, the action has been downplayed and modified. They used to beat drums and do warlike chants and basically act like stereotypical Indian warriors.

 

[BFT2020]

Some random thoughts of mine

Assuming that the Duke is evil, is it because:

A) He is Native American or

B) He owns / controls a casino which has a history (both factual and within fiction) of unsavory characters controlling them?

It is not a stretch (and not racist) that someone in a position of power / control / wealth can be a bad person.

If the Duke's former occupation was different before he built up his powerbase, would it still be considered a racist stereotype? Instead of owning / controlling a casino, would it be the same if he was a former police chief or military commander?

Interesting fact about Arizona, all of the casinos there are owned by Native Americans. Does that affect whether or not the Duke owning / controlling a casino in the fictional Arizona county of Navezgane makes him a racist stereotype?

 

[khzmusik]

This is why the stereotype is so pernicious. It is based on myths that seem reasonable, but are false.

He owns / controls a casino which has a history (both factual and within fiction) of unsavory characters controlling them?

Native American casinos have no such history. No Native American casino has ever been involved with organized crime groups.

You are probably thinking of casinos in Las Vegas or Atlantic City, which have a completely different history and set of laws. They shouldn't be compared.

Interesting fact about Arizona, all of the casinos there are owned by Native Americans. Does that affect whether or not the Duke owning / controlling a casino in the fictional Arizona county of Navezgane makes him a racist stereotype?

Interesting fact about Native American casinos, in Arizona or elsewhere: none of them are owned by Native Americans. All of them are owned by tribal governments. (Kind of like how the lotto is owned by the state.)

For most tribes (and all that I know of in Arizona), tribal governments are made up of elected officials, just like state governments. Here's a link to the tribal government page on the White Mountain Apache tribe's website: http://www.wmat.us/tribal_gov.html

Tribal casinos are not typical for-profit enterprises. All profits go back to the tribal governments, and are mostly spent on things like roads, schools, hospitals, elderly care, or child care.

One of the reasons these myths persist is because they prop up the "Casino Indian" stereotype. That stereotype is of greedy, powerful, organized criminals, made rich from the casino wealth that was taken from non-Natives (usually, White people).

Does the Duke embody that stereotype? Then he is a racist stereotype.

If the Duke's former occupation was different before he built up his powerbase, would it still be considered a racist stereotype? Instead of owning / controlling a casino, would it be the same if he was a former police chief or military commander?

It certainly would not be the same, and in my opinion, it would not be racist. It would mean the Duke would not exemplify an existing racial stereotype.

In fact, that would make a lot more sense than someone who used to manage a casino. It's not like Native American casinos have stockpiles of guns, or vast armies of armed security. Like any other business, they rely on the (tribal) police to handle conflicts and make arrests.

 

[Kire]

I'm not reading all these 4 pages but what is the goal of this post, you want to change the bad guy? Would you rather it be a "White slave driver" or a maybe a "Russian gangster" like every American movie ever lol. No one outside of the US even thinks about racism when they see an Indian as bad guy. The majority of 7dtd players are non American anyway and would be excited to see their country/race be included in the game, as bad guy or good guy. I think you need to touch some grass if this upsets you

 

[Jost Amman]

One of the reasons these myths persist is because they prop up the "Casino Indian" stereotype. That stereotype is of greedy, powerful, organized criminals, made rich from the casino wealth that was taken from non-Natives (usually, White people).

Look man, since you keep spitting BS left and right, I think it's time to set the record straight.

Native Americans are just like other regular people, they are not saints. Parte of them are criminals, similarly to what happens to other groups.
The fact you're implying it would be almost impossible for a native american to break bad when controlling a casino is ludicrous at best.

Here's are some facts that you're welcome to disprove (just a random search on the internet, you can probably find more):

Indictment in connection with Twentynine Palms Band casino

Four people were indicted on federal bribery and money-laundering charges in connection with the casino owned by the Twentynine Palms Band of Mission Indians in California. The tribe's attorney, Gary Edward Kovall, is accused of steering contracts for work at...

indianz.com

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-festering-problem-of-indian-sovereignty/

USDOJ: US Attorney's Office - WAW

Tribes Discover The Two Sides Of Gambling Coin Corruption Following Prosperity's Footstep Onto Reservations

In rural Minnesota, a Chippewa Indian official is indicted on charges of conspiracy, embezzlement, theft and money laundering. In upper Michigan on the Keweenaw Bay Ojibwe reservation, brawling factions lead to the seizure of a tribal building and a standoff that's been in play since August.

www.spokesman.com

Former Tribal Casino Supervisor Pleads Guilty to $300K Embezzlement

A former tribal casino supervisor in Minnesota has pleaded guilty to embezzling more than $300,000 during a nearly seven-year span.

www.casino.org

Guilty: Former Paskenta Tribal Leaders Admit Stealing Casino Money

Three former tribal leaders in the Paskenta Band of Nomlaki Indians have pleaded guilty to embezzling $5 million in revenue from the group's casino.

www.casino.org

Specifically in Arizona:

Dealt in the desert: Operation Royal Flush and Arizona’s gambling past | Arizona Capitol Times

Read about the Fort McDowell standoff, a pivotal moment in Arizona's gambling history, and the recent federal investigation into illegal sports gambling.

azcapitoltimes.com

This Arizona tribal chairman is the subject of a federal probe. But it’s unclear why

The Bureau of Indian Affairs confirmed to KJZZ that its Missing and Murdered Unit is investigating White Mountain Apache Chairman Kasey Velasquez, when asking for an update about the federal probe.

www.kjzz.org

Also... from the American Enterprise Institute:
"The enforcement challenge is structural: federal investigators with the Indian Gaming Commission can make only occasional visits to the more than 241 tribal gaming operations across the country, creating significant oversight gaps."

This can also explain why the number of criminal referrals is comparatively low than other types of non Native American crimes.

 

[zztong]

I'm not reading all these 4 pages but what is the goal of this post, you want to change the bad guy? Would you rather it be a "White slave driver" or a maybe a "Russian gangster" like every American movie ever lol. No one outside of the US even thinks about racism when they see an Indian as bad guy. The majority of 7dtd players are non American anyway and would be excited to see their country/race be included in the game, as bad guy or good guy. I think you need to touch some grass if this upsets you

My summary is not so much that he is urging change, but urging caution, because as he points out the story is not finished and the only information available is snip-its of information that may, or may not, be final.

Personally, I think he has well-grounded reasoning. He's pointing out things that can be considered racist and accurately describing aspects of the real world when he talks of who owns what, etc. His is a discussion of "risk" being overlooked by others who I think believe he is being overly judgemental or who attribute the discussion to political motives. His original message is going unheard and the conversation has become irrelevant.

 

[Kyoji]

there is nothing extreme about it. it is a well-worn pattern that is barely changed in 70 years. indigenous people in the americas have had this same problem for a little less than 600 years with almost no change

You are misunderstanding my point. Having a Native American as a bad guy in a game that follows some tropes is about as racist as Super Troopers take on country cops. What I said was you are taking slurs which can be defined as racist and comparing that to a portrayal of a Native American in the game who owns a casino and is an antagonist. Which one bothers you the fact the Native American owns a casino or that he is an antagonist or both?

What if he was Native American but was a disgruntled soldier rather than a casino owner or what if he were a Native American that owned a safe house casino to break free from the tyranny of a newfound antagonist?

tldr? this is not about indigenous people being in the game. this is about indigenous people being exclusivly designed to be something foregin and less-than-human and to be seen exclusivly as villianous. what they came up with on frostclaw was super ick and clearly racist but also not unusual or special. it is banal and common to see this sort of portrayal(though the elf ears were a bit novel i suppose?)most non-indiginous people just don't care though. what they want is silence and, as long as silence is had things can keep on just as they always were. frankly as far as i am concerned khzmusik can keep going on about it; better an imperfect ally than demanding silence. if jars can be sorted with enough fussing then more realistic depictions of indiginous people should be able to be sorted too.

Wait you think the Frostclaw is racist now?

Please and thank you.

I guess the reason you can't understand why a thread about the depiction of Native Americans in the story as it currently exists in the code can be discussed while politics and religion are banned topics is that you cannot discuss this topic without making things political. You're coming off right now as someone who's mad about a perceived miscarriage of the rules and so now you're trying to disrupt and do what you can to inject as much political talk as you can to ...what?.... get the thread closed? make things even and fair in your own mind?

Nobody was making anything personal until you started openly wondering why politics are a no-no but discussing possible racism in the story is okay and then proceeded to make personal politically themed attacks.

I'm sorry you don't see the difference between arguing political ideologies and discussing elements of the story that might be racist in nature but it is your very lack of awareness on this point that means I can't explain it to you in a way you would ever accept or see.

TLDR: The attempt to make this discussion political and devolve into ideological flaming stops now. The thread is an interesting and valuable topic 100% relevant to the game. Rather than closing the thread, people who refuse to or simply cannot stop themselves from turning it into an opportunity to start a political flame war will be banned from this thread (not from the entire site).

The thread stems from ideology. It's the entire point.

My summary is not so much that he is urging change, but urging caution, because as he points out the story is not finished and the only information available is snip-its of information that may, or may not, be final.

Personally, I think he has well-grounded reasoning. He's pointing out things that can be considered racist and accurately describing aspects of the real world when he talks of who owns what, etc. His is a discussion of "risk" being overlooked by others who I think believe he is being overly judgemental or who attribute the discussion to political motives. His original message is going unheard and the conversation has become irrelevant.

Everyone acts like we haven't seen such activism in gaming culture for the past 5 years now. So it's not hard to draw parody with criticisms from other titles. Racism is defined, according to google as, "Racism is the belief that a person's race determines their traits, paired with the idea that one race is inherently superior or inferior to another."

So are you suggesting that Native Americans are generally portrayed in a negative way? Sure maybe in old western films, but I can't think of much else since and especially not any more than a white corporatist that we typically see as the bad guy these days. The only thing that could be definitionally considered racist is the fact a Native American owns a Casino which is a sterotype based on race, which the intelligentsia have determined to be harmful to Native Americans.




Again for anyone who thinks this is racist what would need to be changed to make it alright in your eyes? Change the fact he is native american? The fact he owns a casino? The fact he is a bad guy? What minimum requirements would meet your standards? I am genuinely curious as there is a clear divide between those who do not see an issue and those that have manufactured one.

 

[zztong]

So are you suggesting that Native Americans are generally portrayed in a negative way?

The modern portrayal of Native Americans is not my field of study. I have no intention of commenting on that.

I'm only suggesting I don't think the original premise of the OP's message isn't well understood, and perhaps I don't fully understand it either.

My take is that he's suggesting of the few elements available to be inspected in the game, that it is possible some of those elements can be considered racist, but that the story isn't complete, and that there's some potential for something like bad press if TFP is careless.

 

[theFlu]

My take is that he's suggesting of the few elements available to be inspected in the game, that it is possible some of those elements can be considered racist, but that the story isn't complete, and that there's some potential for something like bad press if TFP is careless.

That sounds roughly accurate to me; as far as what he's saying. "Can be considered X", where X is already a known motte-and-bailey argument, should not really be given the time of day. Without some strong evidence of actual damages at least.

 

[khzmusik]

These are Web links to some of my sources. I list them here so you can read them, and decide for yourselves whether the things I said are accurate.

I removed the "https" and "://" parts of the URLs. If I did not do this, I don't think the post would make it through the forum's spam filter.

Tribal Gaming
These are sources about tribal casino myths and realities, how those myths support the "Casino Indian" trope, and how that trope is a negative racial stereotype.

Native sources
Articles about tribal casino myths and realities from Native American websites. These websites are run by either specific Native American tribes, or organizations dedicated to Native American issues.

Spoiler: Native Sources

• Viejas Band of Kumeyaay Indians, "Gaming Myths & Facts"
  viejasbandofkumeyaay.org/modern-government/tribal-gaming/myths-facts
• The Muwekma Ohlone Tribe, "Native American Casinos - The Myths and the Facts"
  muwekma.org/blog/2023/november/native-american-casinos-the-myths-and-the-facts.html
• Dwanna L. Robertson, "The Myth of Indian Casino Riches" (ITC News)
  ictnews.org/archive/the-myth-of-indian-casino-riches
• James Ring Adams, "TV's New Indian: Gangs And Casinos" (American Indian Magazine)
  www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/tvs-new-indian-gangs-and-casinos
• "Sovereignty and Indian Gaming in the United States" (Cultural Survival)
  www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/sovereignty-and-indian-gaming-united-states

Scholarly Articles

These are articles from various scholars.

I tried to link to full articles when I could, but unfortunately many are only available behind a paywall. You are still able to read the abstracts, and usually at least some of the full article.

Spoiler: Scholarly Articles

• Celeste C. Lacroix, "High Stakes Stereotypes: The Emergence of the 'Casino Indian' Trope in Television Depictions of Contemporary Native Americans"
  www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10646175.2011.546738
• Davis-Delano et. al., "White Opposition to Native Nation Sovereignty: The Role of 'Casino Indian' Stereotype and Presence of Native Nation Gaming"
  www.cambridge.org/core/journals/du-bois-review-social-science-research-on-race/article/abs/white-opposition-to-native-nation-sovereignty/728CEA397535ED460D845F7648B3B794
• William Dal Porto, "The Misconceptions and Misrepresentations of Indian Gaming Rights"
  scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/58fc9e1e-ad4a-4d47-b32e-ae6aedb058ba/content (PDF - entire article)
• Courtney Elkin Mohler, "Playing (the Casino) Indian: Native American Roles in Peak TV"
  escholarship.org/uc/item/5pv246gz
• Davis-Delano et. al., "The Same Old Story: Cultivation of the Warrior Stereotype of American Indians"
  ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/viewFile/19793/4257 (PDF download)
  (This one is about how consuming different kinds of media leads to different views on Native Americans. I included it because it classifies the "Casino Indian" trope as a negative stereotype, along with the "Degraded Indian" trope, so it helps to demonstrate that this is the consensus among scholars.)

U.S. Government Sources

Spoiler: U.S. Government Sources

• Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (National Indian Gaming Commission)
  www.nigc.gov/office-of-general-counsel/laws-and-regulations/indian-gaming-regulatory-act/
• Tribal Contributions (Arizona Department of Gaming)
  gaming.az.gov/department_measures#tribal-contributions
• "Broken Promises: Continuing Federal Funding Shortfall for Native Americans" (U.S. Commission on Civil Rights)
  www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/2018/12-20-Broken-Promises.pdf (PDF)
• "Native American Tribal Gambling" (part of the National Gambling Impact Study Commission Final Report)
  govinfo.library.unt.edu/ngisc/reports/6.pdf (PDF)

Apache casinos in Arizona

Just for fun, here are the websites for tribal casinos which are run by Apache tribes in eastern Arizona. In real life, one of these would be the casino the Duke "owned" before the apocalypse.

Spoiler: Arizona Apache Tribal Casinos

• Apache Gold
  apachegoldcasinos.com
  Owned by the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Located in Cutter, AZ, in the San Carlos Reservation. Sister casino to Apache Sky.
• Apache Sky
  apacheskycasino.com
  Owned by the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Located in the southern tip of the San Carlos Reservation. Sister casino to Apache Gold.
• Hon-Dah Resort Casino
  www.hon-dah.com
  Owned by the White Mountain Apache Tribe. Located in Pinetop, AZ in the Fort Apache Reservation. Closest casino to Whiteriver, AZ, making it the most likely location of the Duke.
• Mazatzal Hotel and Casino
  mazatzalcasino.com
  Owned by the Tonto Apache Tribe. Located in the Tonto Apache Off-Reservation Trust Land in Payson, AZ.

Native American history and stereotypes

These sources are here for some historical background. Many people probably know all of this already, but some might not, especially if they're from outside the U.S.

Spoiler: Historical Background

• Native American genocide in the United States (Wikipedia)
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
• Stereotypes of Indigenous peoples of Canada and the United States (Wikipedia)
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Indigenous_peoples_of_Canada_and_the_United_States
• Arlene Hirschfelder and Paulette F. Molin, "I is for Ignoble: Stereotyping Native Americans" (Jim Crow Museum)
  jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/native/homepage.htm
• "Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show" (The American Experience)
  www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/oakley-show
• Virginia McLaurin, "Why the Myth of the 'Savage Indian' Persists" (Sapiens anthropology magazine)
  www.sapiens.org/culture/native-american-stereotypes
• Indigeneity Learning Media (PBS)
  mass.pbslearningmedia.org/collection/indigeneity-learning-media

 

[khzmusik]

I'm not reading all these 4 pages but what is the goal of this post, you want to change the bad guy? Would you rather it be a "White slave driver" or a maybe a "Russian gangster" like every American movie ever lol. No one outside of the US even thinks about racism when they see an Indian as bad guy. The majority of 7dtd players are non American anyway and would be excited to see their country/race be included in the game, as bad guy or good guy. I think you need to touch some grass if this upsets you

It's not that the Duke is a "bad guy." It's that he embodies pre-existing, real-life racial stereotypes about Native Americans, specifically the "Casino Indian" stereotype (and to some degree the "Ignoble Savage" stereotype).

There are plenty of ways to make a Native American the bad guy without using these stereotypes.

As to my goal: Plenty of people (American or not) don't realize that these are racial stereotypes. My hope is that The Fun Pimps also don't want the plot of their game to be racist (because they're not racist), so when they realize it is, they will voluntarily go in a different direction.

I have no idea what you're talking about with "White slave drivers" or "Russian gangsters" since those aren't really relevant to modern-day Apache reservations in Arizona, which is where this game takes place. (And I am fine with that setting.)

Look man, since you keep spitting BS left and right, I think it's time to set the record straight.

Native Americans are just like other regular people, they are not saints. Parte of them are criminals, similarly to what happens to other groups.
The fact you're implying it would be almost impossible for a native american to break bad when controlling a casino is ludicrous at best.

I already said, in the same reply you're quoting, that it's not about Native Americans being "saints."

Of course there is occasional corruption and crime around tribal casinos. What I said is that no tribal casino has ever been associated with organized crime, the same way that Vegas casinos used to be. (For what it's worth, there is Native American organized crime; but they sell drugs like everyone else, they're not involved with casinos.)

I just posted a bunch of links to sources about the "Casino Indian" trope. All I'm really asking is that the main antagonist for the game not exemplify that trope.

 

[Kyoji]

These are Web links to some of my sources. I list them here so you can read them, and decide for yourselves whether the things I said are accurate.

I removed the "https" and "://" parts of the URLs. If I did not do this, I don't think the post would make it through the forum's spam filter.

Tribal Gaming
These are sources about tribal casino myths and realities, how those myths support the "Casino Indian" trope, and how that trope is a negative racial stereotype.

Native sources
Articles about tribal casino myths and realities from Native American websites. These websites are run by either specific Native American tribes, or organizations dedicated to Native American issues.

Spoiler: Native Sources

• Viejas Band of Kumeyaay Indians, "Gaming Myths & Facts"
  viejasbandofkumeyaay.org/modern-government/tribal-gaming/myths-facts
• The Muwekma Ohlone Tribe, "Native American Casinos - The Myths and the Facts"
  muwekma.org/blog/2023/november/native-american-casinos-the-myths-and-the-facts.html
• Dwanna L. Robertson, "The Myth of Indian Casino Riches" (ITC News)
  ictnews.org/archive/the-myth-of-indian-casino-riches
• James Ring Adams, "TV's New Indian: Gangs And Casinos" (American Indian Magazine)
  www.americanindianmagazine.org/story/tvs-new-indian-gangs-and-casinos
• "Sovereignty and Indian Gaming in the United States" (Cultural Survival)
  www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/sovereignty-and-indian-gaming-united-states

Scholarly Articles

These are articles from various scholars.

I tried to link to full articles when I could, but unfortunately many are only available behind a paywall. You are still able to read the abstracts, and usually at least some of the full article.

Spoiler: Scholarly Articles

• Celeste C. Lacroix, "High Stakes Stereotypes: The Emergence of the 'Casino Indian' Trope in Television Depictions of Contemporary Native Americans"
  www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10646175.2011.546738
• Davis-Delano et. al., "White Opposition to Native Nation Sovereignty: The Role of 'Casino Indian' Stereotype and Presence of Native Nation Gaming"
  www.cambridge.org/core/journals/du-bois-review-social-science-research-on-race/article/abs/white-opposition-to-native-nation-sovereignty/728CEA397535ED460D845F7648B3B794
• William Dal Porto, "The Misconceptions and Misrepresentations of Indian Gaming Rights"
  scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/58fc9e1e-ad4a-4d47-b32e-ae6aedb058ba/content (PDF - entire article)
• Courtney Elkin Mohler, "Playing (the Casino) Indian: Native American Roles in Peak TV"
  escholarship.org/uc/item/5pv246gz
• Davis-Delano et. al., "The Same Old Story: Cultivation of the Warrior Stereotype of American Indians"
  ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/viewFile/19793/4257 (PDF download)
  (This one is about how consuming different kinds of media leads to different views on Native Americans. I included it because it classifies the "Casino Indian" trope as a negative stereotype, along with the "Degraded Indian" trope, so it helps to demonstrate that this is the consensus among scholars.)

U.S. Government Sources

Spoiler: U.S. Government Sources

• Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (National Indian Gaming Commission)
  www.nigc.gov/office-of-general-counsel/laws-and-regulations/indian-gaming-regulatory-act/
• Tribal Contributions (Arizona Department of Gaming)
  gaming.az.gov/department_measures#tribal-contributions
• "Broken Promises: Continuing Federal Funding Shortfall for Native Americans" (U.S. Commission on Civil Rights)
  www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/2018/12-20-Broken-Promises.pdf (PDF)
• "Native American Tribal Gambling" (part of the National Gambling Impact Study Commission Final Report)
  govinfo.library.unt.edu/ngisc/reports/6.pdf (PDF)

Apache casinos in Arizona

Just for fun, here are the websites for tribal casinos which are run by Apache tribes in eastern Arizona. In real life, one of these would be the casino the Duke "owned" before the apocalypse.

Spoiler: Arizona Apache Tribal Casinos

• Apache Gold
  apachegoldcasinos.com
  Owned by the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Located in Cutter, AZ, in the San Carlos Reservation. Sister casino to Apache Sky.
• Apache Sky
  apacheskycasino.com
  Owned by the San Carlos Apache Tribe. Located in the southern tip of the San Carlos Reservation. Sister casino to Apache Gold.
• Hon-Dah Resort Casino
  www.hon-dah.com
  Owned by the White Mountain Apache Tribe. Located in Pinetop, AZ in the Fort Apache Reservation. Closest casino to Whiteriver, AZ, making it the most likely location of the Duke.
• Mazatzal Hotel and Casino
  mazatzalcasino.com
  Owned by the Tonto Apache Tribe. Located in the Tonto Apache Off-Reservation Trust Land in Payson, AZ.

Native American history and stereotypes

These sources are here for some historical background. Many people probably know all of this already, but some might not, especially if they're from outside the U.S.

Spoiler: Historical Background

• Native American genocide in the United States (Wikipedia)
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
• Stereotypes of Indigenous peoples of Canada and the United States (Wikipedia)
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Indigenous_peoples_of_Canada_and_the_United_States
• Arlene Hirschfelder and Paulette F. Molin, "I is for Ignoble: Stereotyping Native Americans" (Jim Crow Museum)
  jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/native/homepage.htm
• "Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show" (The American Experience)
  www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/oakley-show
• Virginia McLaurin, "Why the Myth of the 'Savage Indian' Persists" (Sapiens anthropology magazine)
  www.sapiens.org/culture/native-american-stereotypes
• Indigeneity Learning Media (PBS)
  mass.pbslearningmedia.org/collection/indigeneity-learning-media

So if he doesn't run a casino then you are fine with him being a bad guy or is that something too much for you too? Genuinely curious. There are also misconceptions that Native Americans were peaceful until Europe arrived which is false.

 

[Kyoji]

As to my goal: Plenty of people (American or not) don't realize that these are racial stereotypes. My hope is that The Fun Pimps also don't want the plot of their game to be racist (because they're not racist), so when they realize it is, they will voluntarily go in a different direction.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. It's how your brain compiles information and processes it efficiently. The stereotype exists due to the legislation regarding it. Also, I wouldn't argue that owning a casino makes you a bad guy nor that it has any negative stereotype associated with it.

Are you equally concerned with stereotypes of Italian Americans in mafia games? So now we can't have a mafia game with Italians in it? Where does this slippery slope end if not with nonsensical theatre. Does this also mean that we can't have a movie like Friday or Boyz in the Hood as it negatively depicts African Americans?

 

[khzmusik]

So if he doesn't run a casino then you are fine with him being a bad guy or is that something too much for you too? Genuinely curious. There are also misconceptions that Native Americans were peaceful until Europe arrived which is false.

I've already said as much. If the Duke would have been an elected official, tribal police chief, or military leader (even a low-level one) then he would not fit a pre-existing racial stereotype. It would also be more believable, since those people have access to guns and an army, which a casino manager would not.

Of course, there are other issues with the story. The good guy, Noah, is literally a White settler. His settlements are called White River, except that there is a real-life Arizona city called Whiteriver, and it is basically the capital of the White River Apache tribe. (The 7D2D official wiki says it is probably what inspired the in-game name and faction.)

So, it would be nice if TFP didn't erase Apache history from their capital city, and hand it to a White settler, at the same time they're making the Apaches be the bad guys.

Those are my two big issues with the story. I don't really care if the good guy is White and the bad guy is Apache, so long as negative racial stereotypes are not presented as factual, and there's no erasure of Native American reality.

Of course, I would prefer it if both characters weren't stereotypically "good" or "bad" at all. Instead, it would be better if they had complex motivations, and were roughly morally equivalent, so the player's choice to side with one or the other would be difficult. But that takes writing skills that I don't think TFP possess. (No shade, I don't either, and good writing in video games is difficult in general.) It's certainly not the case with the story that is currently in the game files.

I wouldn't argue that owning a casino makes you a bad guy nor that it has any negative stereotype associated with it.

You would lose that argument. I posted a bunch of links to sources about exactly that, please feel free to read them.

 

[Kyoji]

You would lose that argument. I posted a bunch of links to sources about exactly that, please feel free to read them.

So is owning a casino is negative, being a Native American, or only when both are combined does it make someone appear negative? The links you posted are about stereotypes and I don't think every stereotype is negative. Is there something inherently negative about white people and mayonnaise? Is the mayo bad or white people or only when combined?

Still waiting on your ideas to crush media entirely as you deny films like Boyz in the Hood, Friday, Undercover Brother, Casino, Carlitos Way, Godfather, any WW2 movie depicting Germans as bad guys, etc, etc.

As you may or may not be able to see there are a lot of things that rely on stereotypes to exist as they form the framework to make something believable.

 

[khzmusik]

So is owning a casino is negative, being a Native American, or only when both are combined does it make someone appear negative?

It's a specific false mythology about tribal casinos that feeds the negative stereotype, both of casino "owners" and of Native Americans in general. Greedy, wealthy, organized criminals, lazy recipients of the money they took from non-Native (White) people, etc. In the case of the Duke and his men, who are also indiscriminately murderous, there is a bit of the "Ignoble Savage" stereotype mixed in.

If you didn't get that, you need to re-read the sources I posted. There are a lot of them, take your time.

Still waiting on your ideas to crush media entirely as you deny films like Boyz in the Hood, Friday, Undercover Brother, Casino, Carlitos Way, Godfather, any WW2 movie depicting Germans as bad guys, etc, etc.

You'll be waiting a long time. First of all, I never "denied" films like those - that's just your bias about my motives. Second of all, this is the fallacy that you called out on yourself: the "slippery slope" fallacy. It's the same sort of fallacy that says "if anyone smokes pot, then eventually they'll become heroin addicts."

None of those things are relevant to 7D2D, and none of them have the same kinds of issues as the story in 7D2D. I'm not going to be goaded into going off on a tangent about unrelated things.

But, if you really want an answer, then answer it to yourself:

I don't think every stereotype is negative.

Do you think any stereotype is negative?

If so, do you think it would be OK if that stereotype were criticized, and/or voluntarily removed from the media you love? And if so, where does that slippery slope end for you?

Or, is nobody allowed to criticize or voluntarily remove any negative stereotypes, for fear of sliding down that slippery slope until we're all banning WW2 movies and Black comedies?

 

[Kyoji]

You'll be waiting a long time. First of all, I never "denied" films like those - that's just your bias about my motives. Second of all, this is the fallacy that you called out on yourself: the "slippery slope" fallacy. It's the same sort of fallacy that says "if anyone smokes pot, then eventually they'll become heroin addicts."

None of those things are relevant to 7D2D, and none of them have the same kinds of issues as the story in 7D2D. I'm not going to be goaded into going off on a tangent about unrelated things.

But, if you really want an answer, then answer it to yourself:

The reason it's important is because if you either think all such depictions are bad and I can write off this thread as being unrealistic in expectations or you don't agree they are bad and you are biased in your ideology and you are not holding everyone to the same standard.

I have no issues deciding whether something breaks my moral compass and is racist. I take into account motive, context and other factors such as time and place. For example a stand up comedy special with taboo topics might be offensive or racist but in the context of a stand up comedy it's purpose isn't to deride. Also I do not agree the story of a Native American that owns a casino is racist or bad in itself nor if he is an antagonist. I think such notions of lazy Native Americans are antiquated and an opinion wouldn't form or change due to their portrayal in 7D2D.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with the premise.