Story Mode Controversy --REDUX

khzmusik said:
I'll leave it up to you to decide which one a player is likely to side with.
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Most people play both sides, especially in a game that has good replayability. There are those who only play good or only play bad, but most don't do that beyond a preference to play one or the other the first playthrough in a game they'll play many times and then they'll often try the other to see the differences. After that, it's whichever gives them the best rewards (for them) or who they like better, which isn't necessarily related to them being good or bad. For example, if Rekt was considered "good", I would always play the bad side just to avoid Rekt. And I usually play the good side first in games, but will play the bad side the next time I play the game. :)

In any case, this isn't a game that needs a story, imo. I hope it will be limited to Navesgane, or at least have an option to disable it. I would do the story once just to see what the cause of the zombies is and to see what they decide to do with the story, but after that, I don't want to ever do the story again. I've said it before... no story, no matter how good, is going to be something you want to go through repeatedly with every game you play since we play so many games with 7D2D. It isn't like most games, where you aren't likely to play more than once or twice within a year or more. Those kinds of games can have a story and you're fine with it since you see it rarely. It's like reading a book again after a few years and still enjoying it. With this game, it would be like reading the same book over and over again, without a break. No, thanks.
 
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khzmusik said:
The controversy was not about "shoehorning" a story into the existing game. (I never had a problem with that.) It was with the story itself.
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i really, really REALLY hope this is never implemented. when there is almost no representation outside of the stereotypes adding one more to the pile is not welcome. i was in my thirties when i finally read a representation of native people that was just normal and not gross and that was only because it wasn't written from the outside. when your childhood is just "be white to be human" it feels a lot more grating to see one more injun story. i guess i am lucky fp rarely finishes things and this will likely spend another ten years on the back-burner :/

Roland said:
You can watch it right now on Paramount+.
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you can also watch the 1950's peter pan movie too. something being commercially available is not an indication of moral or ethics.
 
murky water said:
you can also watch the 1950's peter pan movie too. something being commercially available is not an indication of moral or ethics.
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I never said it was. I wasn't making a case for its morality or ethics. I was making a case for the lack of public outrage over a show reeking of Casino Indian stereotyping. I'm not sure what was controversial about "Peter Pan" but "Song of the South" was scrubbed from Disney streaming and park attractions. Again, I'm not saying that Disney turning its back on one of its classic movies is an indication of that movie's morality or ethics-- only an indication that Disney as a company was afraid to make it available any longer because of how it perceived the public would respond to how blacks were depicted in the movie. Paramount doesn't seem to be worried in the same way over "Longmire" and my point is that TFP probably doesn't need to be worried about it either for this game.
 
Roland said:
I don't think there will be any backlash over it.
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Of course there will be if the Duke is portrayed stereotypically, the very same as the controversy over an Atlanta-based baseball team's mascot will live in infamy. Just look at DAPL and the multi-tribe protest against it to ascertain all the reasons why. Indigenous tribes' sovereignty is consistently trampled when their cultures aren't being co-opted as opposed to celebrated; and, if TFP do plan to portray the Duke in a stereotypical light, it will only add fuel to the fire.

People who already view their fellow human beings as fellow human beings might have a difficult time understanding why social tensions are running so high, atm, but they are running high and that is a fact that can't be denied.

I can't claim to be Cherokee, though I have Cherokee ancestors, am familiar with the culture, and respect both the tribe and the culture immensely. I can't because I wasn't raised by the Cherokee. It only goes to follow I'd need a lot of help to portray the Cherokee faithfully. I'm glad most media has chosen to portray indigenous cultures faithfully to counter both the "noble and ignoble savages" narratives, portraying them as the human beings they are and -- if the Apache do take exception as a tribe -- TFP can't say they weren't forewarned. That's why I highly recommend an advisor be consulted to collaborate on any story and characterization including them. I'd only caution the advisor be vetted very carefully. We wouldn't want a repeat of the Star Trek Voyager incident, now would we?

Considering the setting, it makes perfect sense to include characters of all ethnicites present in the region. Were the Apache left out, that would be just as egregious an oversight as portraying them stereotypically. It's great the player can choose to play an indigenous person. That in itself is practically unheard of and I imagine indigenous peoples would be thrilled about that, but great care has to be taken to get portrayal of the Apache culture right, else the option to drop the Noah/Duke rivalry altogether and just present the mystery of what happened to turn Navezgane into zombie central might be considered.
 
Roland said:
I never said it was. I wasn't making a case for its morality or ethics. I was making a case for the lack of public outrage over a show reeking of Casino Indian stereotyping. I'm not sure what was controversial about "Peter Pan" but "Song of the South" was scrubbed from Disney streaming and park attractions. Again, I'm not saying that Disney turning its back on one of its classic movies is an indication of that movie's morality or ethics-- only an indication that Disney as a company was afraid to make it available any longer because of how it perceived the public would respond to how blacks were depicted in the movie. Paramount doesn't seem to be worried in the same way over "Longmire" and my point is that TFP probably doesn't need to be worried about it either for this game.
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i think you and i are a bit misaligned? i wasn't accusing you personally of anything with my prior post i was just reinforcing the notion that a show causing outrage is not really going to be based on how racist it is because most people are very comfortable with racism as long as it does not interfere with their personal enjoyment of something


as for the peter pan controversy? well it wasn't considered a controversy for most people but it is super duper racist in the most cartoonish way
the main part is the song "what makes the red man red" but there were several slurs that were casually thrown around as well as some really creepy sexualizing of the pre-pubecent tiger-lily that i'm not repeating here.

as for song of the south? it had intermittent theatrical releases until 1989 and they had the frog and rabbit roaming splash mountain for my entire childhood and they had an official blueray release in either 2000 or 2001. racist stuff gets run all the time by disney if it is still making money. i didnt even know they had stopped until miss goldberg made that unfortunate statement on it several years back at which point i found out eisner made the most limp mealy-mouth claim that their reason was about anything other than a lack of acceptable returns(while still giving the go-ahead to release the movie and songs in non-american markets).

for sure it is a really concerning thing to say "doesn't need to be worried about it" though i think unpacking that would be well outside of the perimeters of THIS forum.
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InfiniteWarrior said:
Of course there will be if the Duke is portrayed stereotypically,
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if that painting IS of the duke i think we already know the answer.
 
Jost Amman said:
@Roland @meganoth @Crater Creator
I honestly don't understand why political discussions are banned, but racial discussions are still allowed :unsure:
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Afic, it's a discussion about cultural portrayal in media, with which TFP should be concerned, all things considered. It's no doubt difficult for moderators to determine what is verboten and what is not, especially when so many subjects overlap, but we're literally talking about story and characterization in 7DTD here.
 
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