PC Stone->Iron->Steel is unbalanced.

[meganoth]

Yeah, this sums up my feelings.  If I have to spend perk points to make the Iron better than Stone... then Iron isn't better than Stone.  The perk is.  Or the synergy is.

If the goal was to make any main attribute a viable playstyle, but I need to Perk up enough Str/SexRex to make Iron tools usable, my Int/Agi build is going to suffer greatly.  I should be able to pick up an Iron tool and feel that its definitely better then the Stone one, without feeling there is a minimum Perk investment to make it viable to me.  After all, I still need to do some mining to make a base, and I still need to be able to crack open safes.  Perking Strength should make that even better, but shouldn't feel absolutely necessary.

The whole argument that stamina regen isn't an issue mid- to late-game is predicated around the fact that EVERYBODY DOES IT, but that's because everyone feels its NECESSARY.  I resent that I need SexRex on an Agi character.  I have Flurry of Blows to recover stamina on a kill, but I can't "kill" a safe.

Let me put this another way.  I've leveled up every attribute as a main.  I've played games where I got to 150+ without every putting a single point in Perception, or Intellect, or Stamina, or even Agi (which hurts when I forget I don't have Parkour).  I've never gotten to even 50+ without putting a point in Strength, because it feels that necessary.

Yes and no.

There are other perks where it is very hard to get around without them:

1) The first point in living of the land. If you don't do that you will just waste too much time with farming in the long run.

1) The perk that gives you the forge. This might change with balancing but atm your chances to find the recipe or a working forge near you early enough are slim.

(This is the point where other players will invariably post their own list of perks that are absolutely essential )

Also mining is actually entirely optional (resource heaps and the trader can supply you well enough) and minimal mining can be done with a stone axe. It depends on your playstyle, a builder will not be able to imagine a game without mining.

Actually the iron axe seems to me subjectively quite usable with just sexrex 1 and coffee and is substantially better at yield per time than the stone axe (see Crator Creators Player E result).

But I'll have to check that "quite usable" in a test game again as I'm not absolutely sure that I was switching to iron axe with sexrex 1 in my last vanilla game.

 

[Kalen]

Yes and no.

There are other perks where it is very hard to get around without them:

1) The first point in living of the land. If you don't do that you will just waste too much time with farming in the long run.

1) The perk that gives you the forge. This might change with balancing but atm your chances to find the recipe or a working forge near you early enough are slim.

(This is the point where other players will invariably post their own list of perks that are absolutely essential )

Also mining is actually entirely optional (resource heaps and the trader can supply you well enough) and minimal mining can be done with a stone axe. It depends on your playstyle, a builder will not be able to imagine a game without mining.

Actually the iron axe seems to me subjectively quite usable with just sexrex 1 and coffee and is substantially better at yield per time than the stone axe (see Crator Creators Player E result).

But I'll have to check that "quite usable" in a test game again as I'm not absolutely sure that I was switching to iron axe with sexrex 1 in my last vanilla game.

Valid points.... but doesn't address the fact that without the perks, you are actually less effective using a T2 tool over a T1 tool.

You don't need perks to make a T2 pistol better than a T1 pistol.... the same, IMO, should apply to tools.

 

[Roland]

Valid points.... but doesn't address the fact that without the perks, you are actually less effective using a T3 tool over a T1 tool.

You don't need perks to make a T3 pistol better than a T1 pistol.... the same, IMO, should apply to tools.

The whole stamina issue with iron and steel tools came about before the loot progression-- when you could very commonly find an iron tool on Day 1 and skip the entire primitive phase. Now you get plenty of playtime with stone tools before iron tools appear so that need to gate the iron tools through stamina is no longer in the game. Maybe they will take another look at that and make some adjustments.

 

[meganoth]

Valid points.... but doesn't address the fact that without the perks, you are actually less effective using a T2 tool over a T1 tool.

You don't need perks to make a T2 pistol better than a T1 pistol.... the same, IMO, should apply to tools.

If you don't mind the pause every 14 seconds and food is not a problem then a T2 iron pickaxe of the same quality IS better than the T1 stone axe (in the metric yield per time)

The 14 seconds are for no coffee and at lvl 1 by the way and should increase with each level and with coffee.

 

[Kalen]

If you don't mind the pause every 14 seconds and food is not a problem then a T2 iron pickaxe of the same quality IS better than the T1 stone axe (in the metric yield per time)

The 14 seconds are for no coffee and at lvl 1 by the way and should imcrease with each level and with coffee.

I can tell you, anecdotally, that and iron pick certainly does not feel like an improvement.   Because stamina is an issue.... coffee should not be required to make an iron pick equal to a stone axe (I know thats not exactly what you're saying.... ) but should improve both tools equally.   As it stands right now, coffee does almost nothing to help a stone axe since its stamina drain is so low already.

 

[meganoth]

I can tell you, anecdotally, that and iron pick certainly does not feel like an improvement.   Because stamina is an issue.... coffee should not be required to make an iron pick equal to a stone axe (I know thats not exactly what you're saying.... ) but should improve both tools equally.   As it stands right now, coffee does almost nothing to help a stone axe since its stamina drain is so low already.

This is why I have talked about subjective impressions as well as about the objective metrics like yield.

In a typical game there is the second problem that you usually have a quality 6 stone axe in hand when you find your first q1 iron pickaxe and that has just a little bit better yield for a massive increase in stamina at a time when stamina is still important. So even objectively at that point in time the pickaxe is a downgrade.

I tend to ignore the first low quality pickaxes as well. With or without coffee or sexrex. 

 

[Kalen]

This is why I have talked about subjective impressions as well as about the objective metrics like yield.

In a typical game there is the second problem that you usually have a quality 6 stone axe in hand when you find your first q1 iron pickaxe and that has just a little bit better yield for a massive increase in stamina at a time when stamina is still important. So even objectively at that point in time the pickaxe is a downgrade.

I tend to ignore the first low quality pickaxes as well. With or without coffee or sexrex. 

You may be right.... but I'd argue how it feels is just as, if not more, important than the actual numbers.

 

[DaChibii]

So you really can't compare weapons to tools, since they are separate functions. While mining and crafting are a major component of the game... they aren't essential. Combat on the other hand is. You need to kill zombies to survive, so naturally it has a different progression curve. Can the T2 weapons aren't that much of an upgrade. I prefer the AK to the M16, and 9mm to the Revolver. I haven't done a deep analysis into combat ecosystem, so I really can't say what role the T2 weapons fall into (usually early weapons are easy to get, and then progress into specialties to accommodate various play styles and then ultimately end up with a few best in class weapons).

I don't have the metrics, but I bet TFP has looked into it and determined that in a normal game play session, Iron Tools are an upgrade to Stone Tools. Yes, if you attempt something more specialized than it might feel subpar. But that's do your own player choice, and not the game balance.

 

[Danidas]

I've long been of the opinion that sexyrexy is way too over powered with how much it not only effects tool use but melee combat to the point of just about always being a must have perk. Since it effects all aspects of the game in both direct and indirect ways due to how it reduces the burdens of stamina's forced time delays. Which either forces you to take a short break of your current task or expend further resources to try to minimize via other means aka coffee.

As a result I would love for it to either get nerfed or preferably for more perk/gear based alternatives to be added/made more viable. Such as Fury of Blows which is Agility's alternative to it but it does nothing for stamina beyond increasing its drain until Agility 7 all while doing nothing for tools. Other things could be more perk books that instead of increasing durability reduced stamina use for tasks or gear set perks that help out with stamina use.

Basically make it far less important and impactful to have to invest in Strength and sexy rexy.

 

[Kalen]

 Yes, if you attempt something more specialized than it might feel subpar. But that's do your own player choice, and not the game balance.

Well, that is exactly what I'm saying the problem is.   Again, a higher tier tool should always feel better than a lower tier tool.... regardless of what you are using it for.

 

[DaChibii]

Well, that is exactly what I'm saying the problem is.   Again, a higher tier tool should always feel better than a lower tier tool.... regardless of what you are using it for.

...

So you're saying that my Iron Axe should be better than my Stone Shovel for digging dirt? Because it's a higher a tier tool?

 

[Kalen]

...

So you're saying that my Iron Axe should be better than my Stone Shovel for digging dirt? Because it's a higher a tier tool?

Really?   I didn't think I needed to specify.... but ok.  No, but your iron shovel should be better than your stone shovel.

The "regardless of what you are using it for" was specifically in reference to your comment "attempt something more specialized "

 

[DaChibii]

Kalen... it is superior. It's only not superior if you don't skill into a couple of skills, hence specialization. It's only not superior if you choose a different path (aka player choice). 

Mechanically it's the same as asking for a single harvest tool to be good regardless what it's meant for. Just because you didn't craft a different tool. The harvesting mini-game has different progression paths, how you choose to go through is up to you. If you want the optimal path then you have to choose to go that way. If you prefer combat to harvesting then that's your choice. 

 

[Kalen]

Kalen... it is superior. It's only not superior if you don't skill into a couple of skills, hence specialization. It's only not superior if you choose a different path (aka player choice). 

Again.... that is my point.   It should be superior without needing perks.   IMO, at no time, under no circumstances should a stone tool be superior to an iron or steel tool.  Its counter intuitive.

 

[DaChibii]

Why... should it be? Skills and perks are part of the progression path. 

 

[Kalen]

Why... should it be? Skills and perks are part of the progression path. 

Yup, it should be.   

 

[DaChibii]

Kalen here is the thing... if we do a comparison to the combat ecosystem and say just the AR tree of weapons. 

The important factors in a weapon is magazine size/reload speed, time to kill/shots to kill, and durability. Durability is the least important since repair kits are easily available. Shots to kill on the other hand ends up being the most important since ammo is a scarce resource at first, and DPS is needed late game just to deal with horde sizes and scaled health. Magazine size and reload speed are a factor in DPS and combat session length, and often determine whether you survive an encounter or not (aka dying during a reload). 

Now when we look into ARs the T2 AR isn't really superior in any of those areas, but it does have superior accuracy and recoil. Those are secondary stats that help with ammo sustainability and DPS, but can easily be replicated through mods. So I assume the devs think that players won't have the mods by then to replicate the effects, and so they give them the choice (affected by what mods the player has found by then). Granted if the player has skilled into ARs then the MI6 is probably superior to AK, but again... I don't have graphs to determine weapon damage/shots to kill versus enemy health scaled by game stage. And frankly... that's annoying spreadsheet to build and balance. 

I've been through these types of discussions in regards to weapon balance, and often players ignore the whole combat ecosystem and progression plan to focus on specific perspectives (like endgame or a specific skill build, or play style). 

If Gazz has the data on a spreadsheet then I trust his decision. At most it's more a design issue educating the player about the choices than it's about balance. 

 

[Kalen]

Kalen here is the thing... if we do a comparison to the combat ecosystem and say just the AR tree of weapons. 

The important factors in a weapon is magazine size/reload speed, time to kill/shots to kill, and durability. Durability is the least important since repair kits are easily available. Shots to kill on the other hand ends up being the most important since ammo is a scarce resource at first, and DPS is needed late game just to deal with horde sizes and scaled health. Magazine size and reload speed are a factor in DPS and combat session length, and often determine whether you survive an encounter or not (aka dying during a reload). 

Now when we look into ARs the T2 AR isn't really superior in any of those areas, but it does have superior accuracy and recoil. Those are secondary stats that help with ammo sustainability and DPS, but can easily be replicated through mods. So I assume the devs think that players won't have the mods by then to replicate the effects, and so they give them the choice (affected by what mods the player has found by then). Granted if the player has skilled into ARs then the MI6 is probably superior to AK, but again... I don't have graphs to determine weapon damage/shots to kill versus enemy health scaled by game stage. And frankly... that's annoying spreadsheet to build and balance. 

I've been through these types of discussions in regards to weapon balance, and often players ignore the whole combat ecosystem and progression plan to focus on specific perspectives (like endgame or a specific skill build, or play style). 

If Gazz has the data on a spreadsheet then I trust his decision. At most it's more a design issue educating the player about the choices than it's about balance. 

I've never done a detailed analysis on weapons, so I accept your statement here on the state of ARs.   However, it doesn't really change my stance on tools.   Steel should always be superior to iron which should always be superior to stone.  Independent of any skills and/or buffs.

 

[DaChibii]

So you believe tools should be balanced differently than the other systems and not have skills affecting them (because you can't balance them independently). 

 

[Kalen]

So you believe tools should be balanced differently than the other systems and not have skills affecting them (because you can't balance them independently). 

No, thats not what I said.... skills should absolutely improve your effectiveness with tools.   But whether you are unskilled, sort of skilled, or an absolute master.... Steel should always be superior to iron which should always be superior to stone.  That is what I meant.