PC Steam reviews - I kinda figured

Did stamina bother anyone prior to 17? No? Then stamina isn't the issue, the current implementation of it is.
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Thats cause u were able to completely ignore it. Stamina IS the issue for some people it seems now that it is not completely ignorable.

 
In my opinion, the LBD model puts too much of a focus on doing tasks for their own sake instead of doing them for survival game focused objectives. I personally don’t like that distracting mechanic constantly turning my thoughts towards xp gains. I feel xp gains should be a supporting background feature rather than the whole point of playing.
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You must hate A17 then since it is the most XP-centric alpha ever, by a long margin? I thought you liked it.

 
Thats cause u were able to completely ignore it. .
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In A16 you could not ignore stamina when doing dedicated repetitive tasks like mining. As it should be. That would be tiring.

In A17 it affects everything. Normal, reasonable behaviour = out of Stamina.

BIG difference between the two. Hint: one is fun, reasonable, and a decent mechanic, the other is pile of tedious fun-destroying crap.

 
LBD as a system screams “focus on xp!!!” more loudly than all other game mechanics. I wonder whether some of you who are so angry about these changes to the xp mechanic would even enjoy playing Alpha 10 which was the last update pre-xp. Would you even enjoy the game without any xp in the game at all?
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Funny you should mention this Roland, as I've noted in prior posts, Alpha 10 is the Alpha that I keep my longest ongoing current game going in. The lack of XP, is one reason for that (of a number).

 
You must hate A17 then since it is the most XP-centric alpha ever, by a long margin? I thought you liked it.
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I do think the game is too xp-centric but that didn't start with A17. Here is why I believe I like A17.

1) It is more challenging to me. I know others think it isn't or that it is super easily exploitable but I don't use exploits so it is quite challenging to me.

2) I'm not interested in speeding through the beginning. I like the beginning and I'm not bothered by what those who are angry label as boring grindy and tedious. I know that I wouldn't be able to chop a tree in two swings or one shot a boulder so it feels right to have to take several swings to do so and occasionally catch my breath before finishing.

3) I view xp and leveling as subsidiary and not primary to the game. I really don't have a voice in my head pleading with me to get to the next level. I don't even look at my points until nighttime and sometimes I have something to spend and sometimes I don't. Even with the unbalanced xp on zombies I don't go out hunting them to try and get to the next level as quickly as possible.

So in other words, the issues that make people the angriest such as how we level up (LBD vs points), the slow beginning, and the feeling of being forced to kill zombies aren't my issues. They seem to be the issues of people who place leveling up as the primary game function, hate the beginning, and always gravitate to the one path that will speed them through the progression the fastest.

If xp was completely in the background and LBD I'd be fine with that. I do find choosing how to spend my points a fun and satisfying activity. Others disparage it as a stupid button press but once again those seem to be the people that have devised the One True Path to Supersonic Advancement and they will always play the game in exactly the same fashion. I can well imagine that there is no joy or fun or choice in how they spend their points.

My own favored design would be to just make experience be a function of time survived since the last death. Have it be completely divorced from what actions are taken and then let people do whatever actions are fun for them. Keep the point system because it is fun and then xp is only something you consider when you are thinking about doing something risky that could lead to death. That would be my mod. I'm still thinking about it but I do feel strongly enough to try and do it once the game goes gold. You talk about a grind? Reworking mods each and every alpha update is a grind I will pass on. But someday...

 
So in other words, the issues that make people the angriest such as how we level up (LBD vs points), the slow beginning, and the feeling of being forced to kill zombies aren't my issues. They seem to be the issues of people who place leveling up as the primary game function, hate the beginning, and always gravitate to the one path that will speed them through the progression the fastest.
If xp was completely in the background and LBD I'd be fine with that. I do find choosing how to spend my points a fun and satisfying activity. Others disparage it as a stupid button press but once again those seem to be the people that have devised the One True Path to Supersonic Advancement and they will always play the game in exactly the same fashion. I can well imagine that there is no joy or fun or choice in how they spend their points.
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An interesting strawman, but a strawman none the less. People who like and want learning by doing think they should suck* at something they don't use. They've said so repeatedly. You and everyone else defending this change are all doing it on the basis that the implementation of the previous system* progressed too fast. That's a numbers tweak. No one complains that scavenging, armor skill or medicene rose too quickly. You could easily have a slower learn by doing and conflating it with the idea that people just want lightning fast progress is dishonest at best.

This perk system is brain dead progress. It is more so than other games that implement it. Other games are combat focused and it's not a leap of logic to think someone who fights a lot gets better at fighting. This game breaks immersion by suggesting that by whacking seals, you learn how to plant a garden or forge iron. What a joke.

 
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So in other words, the issues that make people the angriest such as how we level up (LBD vs points), the slow beginning, and the feeling of being forced to kill zombies aren't my issues. They seem to be the issues of people who place leveling up as the primary game function, hate the beginning, and always gravitate to the one path that will speed them through the progression the fastest.
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That's a minor generalisation, Roland. ;-)

For example, I'd favour a LBD system, though I accept, the game has moved on from that, and, like you, I'm not going to try and mod it back in (assuming even I could) until Gold. Even though I prefer LBD, I'm quite happy to feel weak, tired, and slow when I start out (indeed, there'd be very little point to progression if I didn't), quite enjoy the early phases of the game (indeed, on later Alpha's I tend to reset reasonably often), and don't go out of my way to speed level.

So, I've no doubt that some of the people favouring LBD are min-maxing, stone-age-hating, speed-leveling-demons, but it is only some.

 
An interesting strawman, but a strawman none the less. People who like and want learning by doing think they should suck* at something they don't use. They've said so repeatedly. You and everyone else defending this change are all doing it on the basis that the implementation of the previous system* progressed too fast. That's a numbers tweak. No one complains that scavenging, armor skill or medicene rose too quickly. You could easily have a slower learn by doing and conflating it with the idea that people just want lightning fast progress is dishonest at best.
This perk system is brain dead progress. It is more so than other games that implement it. Other games are combat focused and it's not a leap of logic to think someone who fights a lot gets better at fighting. This game breaks immersion by suggesting that by whacking seals, you learn how to plant a garden or forge iron. What a joke.
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Roland's viewpoint seems reasonable and I can relate alot of his experience to my own. No need to resort to name calling because your opinion is different. I see your passionate about it, but that's not an excuse.

 
Roland's viewpoint seems reasonable and I can relate alot of his experience to my own. No need to resort to name calling because your opinion is different. I see your passionate about it, but that's not an excuse.
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I haven't called anyone names. What are you getting at?

 
The argument is a straw man. This isn't wizard of oz. Educate yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
The subject of the sentence I said brain dead was literally "this perk system". Do you even know English?
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Thanks for the google search. I wasnt referring to you calling Roland names but his stance. Semantics I guess. Thanks for attacking my english comprehension. :)

 
Thanks for the google search. I wasnt referring to you calling Roland names but his stance. Semantics I guess. Thanks for attacking my english comprehension. :)
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No problem, I do what I can. Opinions are fair game, especially when they are using logical fallacies.

Maybe try not to derail a thread next time. Just my $0.02.

 
An interesting strawman, but a strawman none the less. People who like and want learning by doing think they should suck* at something they don't use. They've said so repeatedly. You and everyone else defending this change are all doing it on the basis that the implementation of the previous system* progressed too fast. That's a numbers tweak. No one complains that scavenging, armor skill or medicene rose too quickly. You could easily have a slower learn by doing and conflating it with the idea that people just want lightning fast progress is dishonest at best.
This perk system is brain dead progress. It is more so than other games that implement it. Other games are combat focused and it's not a leap of logic to think someone who fights a lot gets better at fighting. This game breaks immersion by suggesting that by whacking seals, you learn how to plant a garden or forge iron. What a joke.
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Not a straw man that I created if it even is a straw man at all. I read a lot of these forums and can say that there definitely is a sentiment among those who don’t like the current system that it slows them down too much and they hate the early game. There is definitely a sentiment voiced by people that we are “forced” to hunt and kill zombies. Why would someone feel forced to hunt and kill zombies for days at the exclusion of other activities if they weren’t primarily concerned with leveling up quickly?

As for spending perk points, I honestly do find it fun to choose exactly how I want to get better. I understand you don’t like it.

I’m not really defending the new system, btw. That is just your perception because...Im not angry? I see the pros and cons of both and am willing to adapt to both and that is because I see level progression as a secondary feature of this game and not a primary feature. Primary to me is exploring, crafting, mining, building, gearing up, and not dying. With these as my primary focus I have fun under either xp leveling system.

As I said, I had a 1000 hours in this game before xp was even a thing so HOW I get xp isn’t really anything to get upset over and if xp went away it would largely be the same game to me.

 
This game breaks immersion by suggesting that by whacking seals, you learn how to plant a garden or forge iron. What a joke.
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:shocked:

So that's why my carrots won't grow... Those poor poor seals...

Well ♥♥♥♥...

 
That's a minor generalisation, Roland. ;-)
For example, I'd favour a LBD system, though I accept, the game has moved on from that, and, like you, I'm not going to try and mod it back in (assuming even I could) until Gold. Even though I prefer LBD, I'm quite happy to feel weak, tired, and slow when I start out (indeed, there'd be very little point to progression if I didn't), quite enjoy the early phases of the game (indeed, on later Alpha's I tend to reset reasonably often), and don't go out of my way to speed level.

So, I've no doubt that some of the people favouring LBD are min-maxing, stone-age-hating, speed-leveling-demons, but it is only some.
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It is a generalization to be sure but at least in these forums I would say it is more than some. At least the most vitriolic and passionate voices will usually include something in their argument to name the early game “a boring tedious slog” or that it takes too long to get to a reasonably functional character, or that the system forces them to hunt zombies for the first several days.

I would love to get some other examples for why someone feels literally forced to hunt zombies for the first few days if it is NOT because they wish to level up quickly to spend points and rush past the beginning capabilities of their character? I’m not talking about people who want to kill zombies because that is what they think is fun, I’m talking about people who admit it isn’t the most fun thing but alas they MUST do it because reasons.

I’ve stated what I think those reasons are so what are other reasons if it isn’t to quickly level up. And then for those of you seeking to level up as quickly as possible why is it you wish to do that if it isn’t to get out of the primitive stage of the game because of how tedious and boring you find it?

If my generalization is way off let’s have all who I’ve maligned with my straw man speak up.

 
Not a straw man that I created if it even is a straw man at all. I read a lot of these forums and can say that there definitely is a sentiment among those who don’t like the current system that it slows them down too much and they hate the early game. There is definitely a sentiment voiced by people that we are “forced” to hunt and kill zombies. Why would someone feel forced to hunt and kill zombies for days at the exclusion of other activities if they weren’t primarily concerned with leveling up quickly?
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I suppose if I'm being honest, I'll have to admit there's some overlap there. However, I'm sure that some of the complaints about progression speed are coming from people who like the new perk system. I really see these as different arguments. Learn by Doing vs Exp to Perk and fast progression vs slow progression. I don't have an opinion on the latter argument, though levels 10 - 20 feel like they drag a bit.

As for spending perk points, I honestly do find it fun to choose exactly how I want to get better. I understand you don’t like it.
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I can respectfully agree to disagree here.

I’m not really defending the new system, btw. That is just your perception because...Im not angry? I see the pros and cons of both and am willing to adapt to both and that is because I see level progression as a secondary feature of this game and not a primary feature. Primary to me is exploring, crafting, mining, building, gearing up, and not dying. With these as my primary focus I have fun under either xp leveling system.
As I said, I had a 1000 hours in this game before xp was even a thing so HOW I get xp isn’t really anything to get upset over and if xp went away it would largely be the same game to me.
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I don't see why your lack of anger would influence my perception. But looking past that, you've been generally supportive of the developments that have come out of A17 and have been more vocal about how you feel the changes have been positive. It's not a large leap to make. If you're truly ambivalent to the change, it has not been apparent. So we debate you.

 
Roland, if we are JUST in a rush why would we care how we get there? BTW I've never NOT been in a rush to level up in A15/A16. I don't know why anyone wouldn't be. Being leveled up is all around better than the alternative. It sucks to suck. I want to be able to level up doing what I'm interested in doing. If I have to kill zombies to get better at killing/fighting, and I've chosen not to do it, then I've made that choice and I own it--in a zombie game sooner or later I'll have to face that. My choice. Ditching the A16 progression system entirely was a MISTAKE. They had a good thing going, and apparently they didn't even know it...

 
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