PC Some thoughts on books and skills progression.

[WarMongerian]

So if the result is not what your answer would be, people don't understand? Why even put up a poll? You don't respect other peoples opinions anyways. If you re not with me you re dumb. Nice way of approaching things dude.

Not at all.  I do appreciate folks opinions, but of course, if folks don't see where this is aimed at, then they would rightfully vote as everyone so far has voted, NO.  This doesn't mean the idea is bad, nor that they are right.  It just means that they don't understand.  I'll bet, TFP will understand where this thread is coming from, an what it is intended to do, and that is all the reward I'm looking for, a game that is improved by making it possible for folks to improve new player enjoyment/retention, trough making it easier for the new player to learn, and helping the less new player, to help their friends learn.

Tutorials would be best, but we have to start somewhere, and by giving these kind of tools (game options) to experienced players, we can help the new guys learn what is what, and that is a win-win for all the players/paying customers, and the game franchise.

I used to play on a server. I'd love to play with others again. I took a different job and now can't regularly play. Another factor is I prefer a vanilla or vanilla-like server, and many servers I've tried feel like they've gone overboard on the mods.

Yea.

My very first game was on one of those servers, but I quickly "Noped my way out of there"

 

[Roland]

This is awkward…I voted Never on every question like the rest as well. I absolutely would not want magazine reading gated behind point spending. Good thing we established my Warmongerian Literacy first though, eh?  Whew. Lol. 
 

(of course if it was an option that could be chosen I would have no problem with that)

 

[WarMongerian]

This type of restriction requirement makes the game slower and makes magazines useless until you've spent a skill point.

This doesn't make sense to me because it's a catch 22 situation.

Until you have skills in an area, you can't get more skills in that area. 

This is another good post, and a reply I have to admit I missed when it was made.  My badd, and thanks for the response.

Sorry, the idea is good, but the explanation, not so much.

Picture one player, that knows enough about the game, and has the drive to help new players to get more fun and satisfaction from their play, rather than frustration, having the options to set up a game, where folks are going to play their first 24 hrs of their new digital dude/gals lives, and want to learn teamwork, and bond over a shared experience.

This is what this idea is all about, helping players help themselves and the new players in the franchise.

Host player goes into the game setting where this notional set of options is implemented, selects what works best for that particular play session, and away we go.  Providing a way for an experienced host player, to make it easier for folks to not read by mistake, books that another needs, for optimal, team building play, are a very good idea.

Keep in mind, when you don't need to use these options you need to do nothing, but when you do need help in helping newbies not screw themselves over, it is better to have these kind of options, than to need them and not have thm.

Kind of like needing experience to get an entry level job when you have never worked a job before. 

If these were always going to be on, in every game, then that would be an accurate, and unfortunate description, but as these are intended only for use in helping an experienced player make it harder for the newbies to screw up...

If we can't learn by reading regardless of skill points this is counter to real world learning and much slower. I would not be a fan.

Having these settings imposed on every game session, I would agree, as they just are not going to be needed all the time.

OTOH, having them be available for use, when they are needed, would be great.

 

[WarMongerian]

This is awkward…I voted Never on every question like the rest as well. I absolutely would not want magazine reading gated behind point spending. Good thing we established my Warmongerian Literacy first though, eh?  Whew. Lol. 
 

(of course if it was an option that could be chosen I would have no problem with that)

Yes. 

I did my usual, and badly presented a good idea, that no one really understood, at the time they voted, lol.

These proposed settings are envisioned (by me), to allow an experience player, to set things up to help new player not screw themselves and their team over.

Think about a standard game set to 120 minute days.  Each real 2.4 hours is an in game day (10:1 timescale).  Picture folks that play one such play session each week.  What would folks choose, as the host player, for their team to try out?  

I have focused on cooking and farming, but really, the ability to teach/remove wasted book looting, has great potential, and once folks start to understand this, we are going to see a near total reversal of opinions.

The poll reflects people's honest reactions, to the ideas presented (badly), according to their understanding/interpretations.

I would love to be able to do a tutorial video, highlighting setting this type of thing up, and then going into such a game, and showing what it looks like from in game.  Anyone reading up on the "lobby" thread, can see my thoughts on getting the game all set to go, and everyone being able to spawn into the map, all at the same time.  What if, during the pre-game lobby, folks could choose a 'focus' for their character, for that particular play session?

In other words, while in the lobby, the party picks their cook?  Now everyone knows, do not spend a point on master chef, unless you are the designated cook, during that first day.

The same can be applied to anything and everything this type of options could potentially be configured for, and the potential is unlimited.

 

[Riamus]

I like your experience, but I have to say, wouldn't something along the lines of:

"I wouldn't use this feature if it was offered"

and leave it at that, be a better response?

Why the need to go into detail about why you wouldn't use this.  Folks that would use this feature if it was offered, don't need to see all that, just,  "Nope" and leave it at that?

Calling someone's idea a "Horrible Idea" is not a particularly nice thing to say, and this isn't the first time you have said this about an idea of mine.  So please, if you don't like an idea, just share that and don't try to belittle the idea beyond that, ok?

If no one ever gives a reason for their opinions, you'll never get anywhere.  Forums are for discussions.  Not just saying yes or no.  If you continue to post things, you will continue to get discussions, including those that are opposed to the ideas.

As far as "horrible" being "not nice"... it's simply an opinion.  I do think it would be a horrible thing in the game.  Being restricted from reading magazines if you don't have a perk point in something is not a good idea.  That's my opinion, and I have just as much right to state my opinion as anyone else.  I give my opinions to anyone, whether they agree with the person or not.  I'm not going to change that.  And, in fact, I have specifically not replied to some of your suggestions that I thought weren't good so that I wasn't being overly negative of your ideas.  I only reply to ones that I'm particularly against, or that I support.

If you post in a public forum, you need to accept that people are going to disagree with you and tell you why they disagree with you.  If that's too hard to handle, then forums may not be a good place to hang out.  Otherwise, accept the criticism and either ignore it or respond to it with why you think the person is wrong about what they said.  But don't try to tell people they shouldn't reply if they don't agree with you.

 

[Riamus]

Not at all.  I do appreciate folks opinions, but of course, if folks don't see where this is aimed at, then they would rightfully vote as everyone so far has voted, NO.  This doesn't mean the idea is bad, nor that they are right.  It just means that they don't understand.

This is your assumption because you want to believe that people agree with you.  I think most people understand what you're saying and do not agree with you.  They don't want to be gated.  And I'd disagree that this has any real benefit for a new player.  Sure, you can say they don't have to keep track of which magazines they are reading, but that isn't exactly difficult to keep track of.  You might have to ask the other players for the first hour or two of play before you remember what you're reading, but it quickly becomes habit as you keep reading specific magazines.  That's not much of a reason to spend any dev time to change.  Other than that, there just isn't any benefit for new players.

And, to be clear, this game is doing very well.  All games lose players who find they don't like something about a game.  That's nothing you can change because no game will interest everyone who tries the game.  You can't change a game just because you want to keep new players who aren't interested in the game.  If they are confused, they ask for help.  If they are unwilling to ask for help or search online, then that's on them.  TFP doesn't have to handhold new players.  And new players are rarely so incapable as some people want to make it appear.  Most are quite capable of figuring out game mechanics.  And this game is hardly a difficult game to figure out.

 

[8_Hussars]

I like your experience, but I have to say, wouldn't something along the lines of:

"I wouldn't use this feature if it was offered"

and leave it at that, be a better response?

Couldn't your overly long and detailed dissertation and poll be summed up by...

"What do you think about linking/requiring skill investment(s) in order to read magazines to address co-op play with non cooperative players? 

 

[BFT2020]

I voted never, never, never

 

[Lax]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be an assumption that you must read a book if you find one.

Of course that's not true, so if you only read the books you're interested in you should be just fine and not even need a system like this. Am I missing something about your idea?

Also I luv the fact that I find Sniper Mags even though I haven't put any points in Dead Eye perk because I'll eventually put some there but it's nice to get the ball rolling even without spending any points. If that was removed it wouldn't be as fun for me.

 

[RipClaw]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be an assumption that you must read a book if you find one.

Of course that's not true, so if you only read the books you're interested in you should be just fine and not even need a system like this. Am I missing something about your idea?

The OP started this thread because a teammate read every book he found instead of sharing the ones he didn't need.

 

[Numberz]

Bad news for the OP.  TFP will never consider adding a rather obscure option for this, nor do I personally think they should.

Good news for the OP.  TFP have been generous in making this game easily mod-able… and this doesn’t seem a particularly difficult mod to make.  Would encourage OP to look in that direction.

 

[WarMongerian]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be an assumption that you must read a book if you find one.

Of course that's not true, so if you only read the books you're interested in you should be just fine and not even need a system like this. Am I missing something about your idea?

Also I luv the fact that I find Sniper Mags even though I haven't put any points in Dead Eye perk because I'll eventually put some there but it's nice to get the ball rolling even without spending any points. If that was removed it wouldn't be as fun for me.

Finding books and reading them are (and should be) too different things, but in the case where folks are just mindlessly reading everything, such a system is needed, if the goal is to allow getting the most out of a teams loot, book wise.  I have so far tried many times to get things organized, but I still end up with folks that have level 10 cooking, but when they are called upon to make the bacon and eggs for the party...no points in master chef!

I also have seen guys running around in primitive armor, or lesser level of armor, when they have the skills and parts to make better, but don't because they don't know how.  Same with tools.

The OP started this thread because a teammate read every book he found instead of sharing the ones he didn't need.

No.  I started this thread because I see folks struggling, time after time, game after game, with the games involved but not to hard system, and there is no system in place where I can hep folks that need to learn stuff, do so efficiently.

Being able to have and setup a system that controls who can read  a book, in a training game, for those that need to learn some basic lessons, is useless for everyone that already has learned these lessons, but a godsend for such players that are trying to help new players learn the game.

Videos of co-op play attempts would be the only thing better than this system, and there isn't any need to choose one orr the other, as both could be done.

Bad news for the OP.  TFP will never consider adding a rather obscure option for this, nor do I personally think they should.

Good news for the OP.  TFP have been generous in making this game easily mod-able… and this doesn’t seem a particularly difficult mod to make.  Would encourage OP to look in that direction.

We don't know this.  Are you the main TFP developer?  On the level of mods, you are probably correct, it doesn't see like adding a prerequisite of a skill point being spent to unlock the ability to read a book, or beyond a designated point, continue reading books of a type, doesn't strike me as something to difficult for someone with the right skills and temperament to achieve.

Bad news, my eyesight is still getting worse and worse.

 

[Riamus]

Millions of players have learned to play this game without a problem.  Even after magazines were added, basically everyone learned how to share magazines and how to craft without a problem, even if they don't like magazines.  It really isn't difficult to figure out.  If someone refuses to either learn how to do it or just wants to be a jerk about it, then don't play the game with them.  We really don't need handholding.  This isn't a soul-like game.

It also isn't a big deal for someone to cook without any points in master chef. I rarely put points into it until the very end of the game... If at all.

 

[meganoth]

No.  I started this thread because I see folks struggling, time after time, game after game, with the games involved but not to hard system, and there is no system in place where I can hep folks that need to learn stuff, do so efficiently.

Being able to have and setup a system that controls who can read  a book, in a training game, for those that need to learn some basic lessons, is useless for everyone that already has learned these lessons, but a godsend for such players that are trying to help new players learn the game.

Videos of co-op play attempts would be the only thing better than this system, and there isn't any need to choose one orr the other, as both could be done.

How could they learn playing co-op if co-op play is forced on them? This is basically the same question as: "How do you learn managing money if your parents do not give you some money to spend and buy everything for you?".

You seem to have a bad track record with your co players. The same players who just gulp up everything they find are often the same players who will never read in-game hints or help pages or waste the time to watch an instructional video. TFP tried that once with a journal (is it still in the game by the way?) and even better player than your batch never read them.

Co-op also means discussing what to do in chat. Teamspeak/discord... that is the co-op system to help folks that need to learn stuff. You should be able to convince anyone with normal intelligence that it is beneficial for them as well to share magazines. All the facts are on your side. Not in the case you were mentioning in your op, there are players one simply can't play with.

 

[theFlu]

I don't like the strict lock proposed here, just because it sounds like a completely arbitrary system, but I might prefer a LBD-hybrid. Something along the lines of: read a book, get locked from more until you use the skill (for some reasonable amount of "use").

This would solve the "dude read all the cook books, but never cooked a thing" -issue, but it would also tickle the realism of learning a little.

For "mass skills", like cooking / farming, it might need a few craft events to unlock the next book.

For the rarely used ones, like Weapon crafting - could unlock literally a tier at a time, where you'd have to make every tier of a weapon to progress. Or, on the easier end, they could unlock along with some/any/all relevant use (for guns: shooting, forging).

Depending on how you play, you might end up gathering a library before you've unlocked the use-part; or be limited by lack of books. Both would push the player towards a part of the game that he's not doing a lot of - which might feel bad ofc, "the game is forcing me to cook"; but if done right, if you ain't cooking, you probably won't care.

 

[WarMongerian]

I don't like the strict lock proposed here, just because it sounds like a completely arbitrary system, but I might prefer a LBD-hybrid. Something along the lines of: read a book, get locked from more until you use the skill (for some reasonable amount of "use").

I like the response.  I have to ask, though, what is this "strict lock" that you mention?  I may be mis-reading your response, but then, I don't know what you are saying, so...

Picture a new game being created in the near future...

A player discovers this great new (to them) game, 7 Days to Die, and they tell all their friends about it.

They all go out and buy the game.

They all come to their meeting place (Discord or whatever).

They Join their friends "lobby" and hang out there, getting all the needed files to load up, while chatting about whatever, and deciding what they hope to try out, in the upcoming game play session.

Once everyone is there for the "Opening night", the host hits the spawn button, and everyone that was in the lobby spawn into the game, either all using the same spawn point (work needed to make this work/instanced loot/resources). or nearby spawn points, and the party/team hits the zombie apocalypse running.

Picture this notional game setting option as one of the topic for discussion while folks are in the lobby, pre-game.

Now let us also imagine that, for testing these settings out, the host player has a list of links for folks to check out (briefly), so they know what is what, or perhaps, the host can simply play some real quick videos, that show in game where to put points to unlock cooking (or whatever), and that all this is done and ready for a nights first game/attempt.

Now these daring adventurers jump in, and play their character's first few hours in game, and see how useful a team effort can be...

This would solve the "dude read all the cook books, but never cooked a thing" -issue, but it would also tickle the realism of learning a little.

If you mean, unlock cooking by cooking...?  I suppose, if done right, that might be a good thing to have in the game.  Tell me more...?

 

[theFlu]

I have to ask, though, what is this "strict lock" that you mention? 

Your entire poll is phrased as variants of "book X be unblocked by spending a point in skill Y". That.

I don't know how imagining a new group starting their first game affects .. anything? Whatever the possible settings are, a group can discuss them, or trust the host to set something reasonable.

If you mean, unlock cooking by cooking...?  I suppose, if done right, that might be a good thing to have in the game.  Tell me more...?

You got the idea already, details TBD; for a simple example:

First cook book you read unlocks yellow tea. Next book would unlock Coffee, but you can't read it until you've made 2-10 yellow teas (random small amount). Once you unlock and read the coffee book, poor coffee gets lonely for a breakfast option, so the next unlockable will be Eggs. Boil a few coffees (and/or more teas) to unlock the egg tier of reading.

If you want to add a sprinkling of realism, eggs might be the easier thing to boil, so those unlock first; then a tea, brewing coffee might require some bean handling practice so that comes later. The magazines would still remain unrealistically pluripotent, but .. can't have it all for a simple example.

 

[Riamus]

I would have to agree .. I'm not sure what the scenario of people starting a new game has to do with whether or not reading is gated by perks.  And even if it was somehow relevant, this isn't a pen and paper D&D game where you need to explain things and go over stuff ahead of time.  It also isn't a board game that requires a lot of explanation of rules for how to play.  It is a pretty basic video game, where people can easily learn just by playing the game and the occasional comment by others on how to do something if they really need it.  There would be no reason for tutorial videos or discussion or anything before starting a new game with people.  If people are that unskilled at games, they should probably be playing casual games.

Add far as cooking X number of things to progress, even when combined with reading... No thanks. And for the same reason I don't want straight LBD.  I don't enjoy eating time or resources making the same thing over and over in order to progress, even if it is a relatively small number.  Even back when I played WoW, having to make the relatively small number of items to get to the next level was annoying.  And you aren't going to get much more simple than that for LBD.  It was fine the first time around, but after you've played many characters from level 1, it is just a waste of time.  And this game is intended to be played from level 1 far more often then WoW ever was.

 

[theFlu]

And you aren't going to get much more simple than that for LBD.  It was fine the first time around, but after you've played many characters from level 1, it is just a waste of time.  And this game is intended to be played from level 1 far more often then WoW ever was.

Ye, I do agree, leveling the third engineer started to get a little stale in vanilla

Just proposing a system I'd find more acceptable than the hard skill point lock being proposed; I'd prolly enjoy the proposal more than the current mags, as the mags aren't even interesting in any way, just a paper boy simulator - but I get it's not an improvement for everyone.